# Does the Universe violate the 1st law of thermodynamics? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [April 7, 2000, 4:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-universe-violate-the-1st-law-of-thermodynamics/10334 "2000-04-07T04:52:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 7\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![I\_am\_the\_ONE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/74df32/32.png) [@I\_am\_the\_ONE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/I_am_the_ONE)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2000, 6:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-universe-violate-the-1st-law-of-thermodynamics/10334/21 "2000-04-09T06:39:00Z")
> [@](#): > > Originally posted by pluto: > **Fiat lux.** Is not the essence of life to debate the uncertainty therein? ---
**Author:** ![I\_am\_the\_ONE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/74df32/32.png) [@I\_am\_the\_ONE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/I_am_the_ONE)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2000, 6:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-universe-violate-the-1st-law-of-thermodynamics/10334/22 "2000-04-09T06:44:00Z")
> [@](#): > > Originally posted by m3: > **The 1st law of thermodynamics states that for all changes in an isolated system, the energy remains constant. It’s more popularly explained as, “energy is neither created nor destroyed.” > So… how did the universe come to exist?** interesting question…we seem to exist in some sort of a paradigm. Maybe we will do better than post temeritous questions for the world to try to reconnoiter. ---
**Author:** ![Triskadecamus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b19c9b/32.png) [@Triskadecamus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Triskadecamus)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2000, 7:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-universe-violate-the-1st-law-of-thermodynamics/10334/23 "2000-04-09T07:07:00Z")
> [@](#): > > Originally posted by I am the ONE: > \*\* however, algebraic rules (quite less sophisticated than quantum mechanics) state that the sum of any number with zero is zero\*\* Quite a bit less sophisticated. Also incorrect, but I am sure that won’t trouble you. The sum of any number with zero is the number itself. And it isn’t algebra it’s arithmetic. ## **Tris** ## Never make simple arithmetic errors in a logic slam. Imagine my signature begins five spaces to the right of center. ---
**Author:** ![Konrad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/f475e1/32.png) [@Konrad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Konrad)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2000, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-universe-violate-the-1st-law-of-thermodynamics/10334/24 "2000-04-09T16:46:00Z")
> [@](#): > > Isn’t the “Big Bang” theory the prevailing comological model among scientists? This seems to imply a starting point to me. Well, like you said, it’s just a theory. Also, just because we consider it the beginning of _our_ universe doesn’t mean that the energy that created the big bang didn’t exist before. ---
**Author:** ![mrblue92](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/5daacb/32.png) [@mrblue92](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mrblue92)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2000, 1:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-universe-violate-the-1st-law-of-thermodynamics/10334/25 "2000-04-10T13:03:00Z")
> [@](#): > > The universe is not borrowed, since everything was here beforehand, just all in one spot. Ah, but where did _that_ come from? Spawned from another universe? The hand of God? Or was it just always here? Perhaps our entire universe is a speck of dust on the stomach of a turtle in another universe. Unless God comes down and reveals the answer or we rip through the fabric of space and see who the “man behind the curtain” is, I don’t think the question is conclusively answerable. My personal preference is, “In the beginning, God created…” I’m not saying it’s provable or even logical, but, by all means, theorize all you like. ---
**Author:** ![Smeghead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f1d935/32.png) [@Smeghead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smeghead)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2000, 3:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-universe-violate-the-1st-law-of-thermodynamics/10334/26 "2000-04-14T03:15:00Z")
While I’m no expert, I DO know that the 1st LofT is among the best-verified rules of physics. We know of nothing that even seems to imply the possibility of violating it. Of course, part of that is probably our bias, but hey. One serious and semi-popular theory (I think I remember seeing it mentioned in one of Hawking’s books) suggests that the universe is constantly collapsing and expanding. Big Bang, then expansion, then collapse, then Big Crunch, and we’re back where we started. Of course, this begs the question how did that all start to begin with. But remember, the concept of time probably has no real meaning in the conditions around the Big Bang, so asking about “before” is really meaningless. And to end this ramble, a word about what is thought happened. Although energy and matter cannot be created or destroyed, they can and do interchange all the time. At the Big Bang, it was all energy. As it expanded and cooled, it gradually turned into matter. That’s it. Back to work. ---
**Author:** ![Jinx](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Jinx](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jinx)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2000, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-universe-violate-the-1st-law-of-thermodynamics/10334/27 "2000-04-14T15:34:00Z")
You see, the First Law was still just the First Bill back then…but then again, I never studied law! 😉 * * * “They’re coming to take me away ha-ha, ho-ho, hee-hee, to the funny farm where life is beautiful all the time… :)” - Napoleon IV [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-universe-violate-the-1st-law-of-thermodynamics/10334.md?page=1)