# Does the US gov't recognize the citizenship of hillbillies? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [September 30, 2006, 3:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-us-govt-recognize-the-citizenship-of-hillbillies/374698 "2006-09-30T03:38:48Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Terrifel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c68b51/32.png) [@Terrifel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terrifel)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2006, 3:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-us-govt-recognize-the-citizenship-of-hillbillies/374698/1 "2006-09-30T03:38:48Z")
In this computer-driven, Patriot-Activated modern world of ours, are there still American citizens who have been raised “off the record,” so to speak? Whether they were born in some ultra-remote township that was bypassed by Rural Electrification, or were raised in an insular religious community, or had parents with an anti-bureaucratic countercultural philosophy or whatever, could a person establish their citizenship these days without an official birth certificate, Social Security number, or similar documentation? ---
**Author:** ![Operation\_Ripper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/34f0e0/32.png) [@Operation\_Ripper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Operation_Ripper)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2006, 3:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-us-govt-recognize-the-citizenship-of-hillbillies/374698/2 "2006-09-30T03:41:34Z")
Yep. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2006, 3:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-us-govt-recognize-the-citizenship-of-hillbillies/374698/3 "2006-09-30T03:47:32Z")
[QUOTE=Operation Ripper] Yep. [/QUOTE] What a well written and detailed answer. Perhaps we can draw just a wee bit more details from you? ---
**Author:** ![Nuclear\_Siafu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f04885/32.png) [@Nuclear\_Siafu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nuclear_Siafu)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2006, 3:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-us-govt-recognize-the-citizenship-of-hillbillies/374698/4 "2006-09-30T03:47:48Z")
[QUOTE=Terrifel] In this computer-driven, Patriot-Activated modern world of ours, are there still American citizens who have been raised “off the record,” so to speak? Whether they were born in some ultra-remote township that was bypassed by Rural Electrification, or were raised in an insular religious community, or had parents with an anti-bureaucratic countercultural philosophy or whatever, could a person establish their citizenship these days without an official birth certificate, Social Security number, or similar documentation? [/QUOTE] AFAIK, the rule in effect has been that if you were born in America or of American citizens, you’re automatically considered a citizen yourself. Trying to prove it would just be a matter of proving you were born here, probably to a federal court. Although I’d imagine the IRS would want to have a word with you afterwards. ---
**Author:** ![Operation\_Ripper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/34f0e0/32.png) [@Operation\_Ripper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Operation_Ripper)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2006, 3:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-us-govt-recognize-the-citizenship-of-hillbillies/374698/5 "2006-09-30T03:55:18Z")
[QUOTE=What Exit?] What a well written and detailed answer. Perhaps we can draw just a wee bit more details from you? [/QUOTE] Well, unless you are kidding, google is your friend. There is an immense amount of information about US citizenship on government cites and elsewhere, and it only takes about .01 secs to find. Or you could just pick up a phone. Seriously, this is not a hard question to answer with a little effort on your part. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2006, 3:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-us-govt-recognize-the-citizenship-of-hillbillies/374698/6 "2006-09-30T03:59:50Z")
[QUOTE=Operation Ripper] Well, unless you are kidding, google is your friend. There is an immense amount of information about US citizenship on government cites and elsewhere, and it only takes about .01 secs to find. Or you could just pick up a phone. Seriously, this is not a hard question to answer with a little effort on your part. [/QUOTE] It was not my question, but a one word answer is a little underwhelming as the first reply in GQ. ---
**Author:** ![Operation\_Ripper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/34f0e0/32.png) [@Operation\_Ripper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Operation_Ripper)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2006, 4:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-us-govt-recognize-the-citizenship-of-hillbillies/374698/7 "2006-09-30T04:02:52Z")
[QUOTE=What Exit?] It was not my question, but a one word answer is a little underwhelming as the first reply in GQ. [/QUOTE] Maybe not, depending upon the merit of the OP. ---
**Author:** ![Terrifel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c68b51/32.png) [@Terrifel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terrifel)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2006, 4:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-us-govt-recognize-the-citizenship-of-hillbillies/374698/8 "2006-09-30T04:07:07Z")
[QUOTE=Nuclear\_Siafu] AFAIK, the rule in effect has been that if you were born in America or of American citizens, you’re automatically considered a citizen yourself. Trying to prove it would just be a matter of proving you were born here, probably to a federal court. Although I’d imagine the IRS would want to have a word with you afterwards. [/QUOTE] But would they be able to prove their citizenship in court, without documentation? I presume that such situations came up frequently in the past (hence the ‘hillbilly’ reference-- no slur intended to actual hillbillies), and were probably handled fairly informally. Although I may be wrong, I’m guessing that standards are somewhat more rigorous these days, which is why I’m curious about whether the situation still occurs. Surely in such a big country there’s still a few folks who were born here and yet, for whatever reason, don’t have the customary paperwork necessary to vote, get a driver’s license, etc. ---
**Author:** ![Terrifel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c68b51/32.png) [@Terrifel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terrifel)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2006, 4:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-us-govt-recognize-the-citizenship-of-hillbillies/374698/9 "2006-09-30T04:15:17Z")
[QUOTE=Operation Ripper] Well, unless you are kidding, google is your friend. There is an immense amount of information about US citizenship on government cites and elsewhere, and it only takes about .01 secs to find. Or you could just pick up a phone. Seriously, this is not a hard question to answer with a little effort on your part. [/QUOTE] I find it hard to believe that it took you less than .01 seconds to compose your three posts so far. Since you have the time to justify your participation in this thread, could I trouble you to point out some cites that specifically address my question? I’d be greatly appreciative, and it would only take .01 seconds of your time. ---
**Author:** ![Operation\_Ripper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/34f0e0/32.png) [@Operation\_Ripper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Operation_Ripper)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2006, 4:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-us-govt-recognize-the-citizenship-of-hillbillies/374698/10 "2006-09-30T04:22:10Z")
[QUOTE=Terrifel] Icould I trouble you to point out some cites that specifically address my question? [/QUOTE] Nope, you may not. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/50afbb/32.png) [@Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duck_Duck_Goose)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2006, 4:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-us-govt-recognize-the-citizenship-of-hillbillies/374698/11 "2006-09-30T04:49:05Z")
Yanno, **I’d** like to see some of these 0.1 second immediately-available Google-is-your-friend cites, because I’ve been sitting here Googling on things like “establish citizenship without birth certificate” for considerably longer than 0.1 seconds now, and all I’m getting is, “You need a birth certificate.” Or, sometimes, a passport. The modern-day equivalent of the somewhat stereotypical “hillbilly” would probably be the back-to-the-land “we’re going to live off the grid” type, growing their own food, delivering their own babies, homeschooling their kids, etc., and I have no idea how those kids manage to do things like get driver’s licenses without birth certificates. It’s possible that when they’re born, the dad goes down to the courthouse and fills out a birth certificate, or that their friendly neighborhood midwife fills one out, but what I’m getting from Google so far is that the starting point for everything from Medicaid to driver’s licenses is a birth certificate. Or, sometimes, a passport. IOW, documentation. So, **Operation Ripper** , cite? **I’d** like to know, too, how you go about proving you were born in the USA if your daddy delivered you with his own hands in a log cabin in the Idaho boonies and had issues with paperwork. ---
**Author:** ![Oakminster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/77aa72/32.png) [@Oakminster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oakminster)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2006, 5:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-us-govt-recognize-the-citizenship-of-hillbillies/374698/12 "2006-09-30T05:04:57Z")
[QUOTE=Duck Duck Goose] So, **Operation Ripper** , cite? **I’d** like to know, too, how you go about proving you were born in the USA if your daddy delivered you with his own hands in a log cabin in the Idaho boonies and had issues with paperwork. [/QUOTE] In my state, you could possibly bring an action in state court to correct a birth certificate–in this instance, the necessary correction being present nonexistence. DNA evidence would be admissable, as well as testimony from anyone having relevant knowledge–family members, neighbors, etc. There’s an exception to the hearsay rule for things like the geneology information recorded in the family bible. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2006, 5:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-us-govt-recognize-the-citizenship-of-hillbillies/374698/13 "2006-09-30T05:09:19Z")
According to this cite, you can prove citizenship by any of the following. > [@](#): > > ``` > * Baptismal certificate > * Hospital birth certificate > * Census record > * Early school record > * Family bible record > * Doctor's record of post-natal care > > ``` > > These documents must be early public records showing the date and place of your birth, preferably created within the first five years of your life. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2006, 5:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-us-govt-recognize-the-citizenship-of-hillbillies/374698/14 "2006-09-30T05:10:22Z")
Sorry. Forgot the link. [http://studenttravel.about.com/od/planyourtrip/f/nocertificate.htm](http://studenttravel.about.com/od/planyourtrip/f/nocertificate.htm) ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2006, 5:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-us-govt-recognize-the-citizenship-of-hillbillies/374698/15 "2006-09-30T05:36:05Z")
[QUOTE=Operation Ripper] Nope, you may not. 🙂 [/QUOTE] You are invited to a [pitting in your behalf](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=7824861#post7824861): Jim ---
**Author:** ![Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/50afbb/32.png) [@Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duck_Duck_Goose)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2006, 5:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-us-govt-recognize-the-citizenship-of-hillbillies/374698/16 "2006-09-30T05:40:13Z")
But…those are all still documentation. The OP’s question was, “How do you prove citizenship _without_ documentation?” Say you were born and raised in a hippie commune in Vermont, and you wanted to join the Real World, and you wanted to start by getting a driver’s license, but your parents’ hippie commune didn’t believe in baptism, let alone baptismal certificates, and they didn’t own a family Bible, they did all their own doctoring with “yarbs”, they literally wouldn’t be caught dead in a hospital, ditto for the public schools, they refused to give The Man any details about what children may have been born to them, and every time the census taker came around they all went and hid in the woods. So, you’re this 18-year-old product of the Aging Hippie Generation, and you want a drivers license and you show up at the DMV, who just laugh in your face. Whaddaya do? Apparently if you live in Oakminster’s MMORPG [😃] , you’d be in luck, but if you live anywhere else, whaddaya do? ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2006, 2:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-us-govt-recognize-the-citizenship-of-hillbillies/374698/17 "2006-09-30T14:00:18Z")
[QUOTE=Terrifel] no slur intended to actual hillbillies [/QUOTE] No offense taken. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![spingears](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ebca7d/32.png) [@spingears](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/spingears)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2006, 2:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-us-govt-recognize-the-citizenship-of-hillbillies/374698/18 "2006-09-30T14:06:13Z")
[QUOTE=Operation Ripper] Yep. [/QUOTE] A few, mighty few. Hillbillies and rednecks or whatever you want to call them are fewer and farther between in actuallity than they are given (dis)credit for. Far smarter that city-fellers in many practical ways. Some just give the impression of being backward to avoid dealing with ‘stupid’ town folk. Most of them are great folks to know when, as, and if you can get acquarinted. ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2006, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-us-govt-recognize-the-citizenship-of-hillbillies/374698/19 "2006-09-30T14:22:53Z")
From Jahdra’s post in another thread about living in the boonies: > [@](#): > > Being poor in the boonies sucks. It is the rankest poverty you can imagine if you can’t be self-sufficient. However, there is a big difference between living simply in the boonies and wanting desperately to escape and being unable to. When I was in fourth grade, I think, my elementary school (no buses since most of the kids would have to have been driven to the bus stop on the paved road and at that point, it was only another 4 or 5 miles to school anyway) had an influx of students from a community that had been discovered by the government. I think it was a disgruntled former resident, actually, the government’s afraid to go too far back in the mountains, except by helicopter to look for pot. Most of the kids had no idea how old they were and some them, who their parents were, and they had to get social security cards, birth certificates, immunizations, just to go to school with strangers. That’s all pretty traumatic for kids raised to distrust the government. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2006, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-us-govt-recognize-the-citizenship-of-hillbillies/374698/20 "2006-09-30T15:14:38Z")
Here’s a [link](http://travel.state.gov/passport/get/minors/minors_834.html) to the webpage explaining what’s necessary to get a passport for a child under 14. In particular, they explain what to do if the child doesn’t have a birth certificate. [QUOTE=U.S. Department of State] A Delayed Birth Certificate filed more than one year after your birth may be acceptable if it: ``` * Listed the documentation used to create it and * Signed by the attending physician or midwife, or, lists an affidavit signed by the parents, or shows early public records. ``` If you do NOT have a previous U.S. passport or a certified birth certificate, you will need : 1. Letter of No Record Issued by the state with your name, date of birth, which years were searched for a birth record and that there is no birth certificate on file for you. 1. AND as many of the following as possible: ``` * Baptismal certificate * Hospital birth certificate * Census record * Early school record * Family bible record * Doctor's record of post-natal care ``` [/QUOTE] [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-us-govt-recognize-the-citizenship-of-hillbillies/374698.md?page=2)