# Does the US or EU have more minority representation in leadership at Fortune companies / Politics? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 16, 2020, 3:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-us-or-eu-have-more-minority-representation-in-leadership-at-fortune-companies-politics/918237 "2020-08-16T03:39:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 14\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![am77494](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d2c977/32.png) [@am77494](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/am77494)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2020, 3:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-us-or-eu-have-more-minority-representation-in-leadership-at-fortune-companies-politics/918237/1 "2020-08-16T03:39:56Z")
UK is excluded from this discussion because it is no longer part of the EU. The EU often prides itself to be progressive but in my travels through Germany, Italy and a few other countries (mostly on business), I’ve personally seen very few immigrants/minorities in leadership positions whether it be businesses or politics. What’s your take on it ? ---
**Author:** ![Aspidistra](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aspidistra/32/3894_2.png) [@Aspidistra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aspidistra)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2020, 7:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-us-or-eu-have-more-minority-representation-in-leadership-at-fortune-companies-politics/918237/2 "2020-08-16T07:27:14Z")
Every country keeps statistics in a different way, so it’s hard to make international comparisons. But the first thing you should ask yourself is - what’s a minority? The Wiki page for Italy, for instance, says that about 8% of Italy is of migrant background, and most of those come from Eastern Europe. Are you confident you can tell who in Italy is from a Romanian or Ukrainian background, rather than Italian? Or who’s Roma? (Roma are the but of ethnic discrimination all over Eastern Europe). In Germany, I believe that the main ethnic tension is with the ethnic Turkish community. Taking a random Turkish guy - lets say [Erdogan](https://www.google.com/search?q=erdogan&rlz=1C1CHZL_enAU761AU762&oq=erdogan&aqs=chrome..69i57j46j0l6.1975j0j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8) - I don’t really think I could tell much difference between him and a random German guy, if they were just a face in a conference room. YMMV. Having said that, I bet there’s substantial underrepresentation _in politics_ of minority/migrant groups … because migrant. Lots of people get a leg-up in politics through family connections - hard to do if your parents came in with not much thirty years ago and had to build their whole lives up from scratch, which is a very common migrant experience. But that’s a problem with the nepotism in politics, which is a problem everywhere. Business … idk, is anyone even keeping stats on this? ---
**Author:** ![Kimera757](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kimera757/32/3765_2.png) [@Kimera757](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimera757)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2020, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-us-or-eu-have-more-minority-representation-in-leadership-at-fortune-companies-politics/918237/3 "2020-08-16T16:42:53Z")
The question is hard to answer. The United States has more visible minorities than most European countries per capita. If the US has more minority CEOs and politicians, maybe that’s just because there are more minorities there in the first place (per capita). For that matter, politics vary considerably from one country to another. The United Kingdom has 650 MPs, which are equivalent to Representatives, and their version of the Senate (the House of Lords) actually has more seats than their House (772). In short, more federal elected politicians representing a smaller number of people. That will mess up the statistics too. The House of Lords is appointed, not elected, and many of the positions are somewhat inherited (which makes it much harder for minorities to enter, although there are British peers with ethnic backgrounds). ---
**Author:** ![am77494](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d2c977/32.png) [@am77494](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/am77494)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2020, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-us-or-eu-have-more-minority-representation-in-leadership-at-fortune-companies-politics/918237/4 "2020-08-16T17:01:15Z")
> [@Aspidistra](#): > > Every country keeps statistics in a different way, so it’s hard to make international comparisons. But the first thing you should ask yourself is - what’s a minority? The Wiki page for Italy, for instance, says that about 8% of Italy is of migrant background, and most of those come from Eastern Europe. Are you confident you can tell who in Italy is from a Romanian or Ukrainian background, rather than Italian? Or who’s Roma? (Roma are the but of ethnic discrimination all over Eastern Europe). In Germany, I believe that the main ethnic tension is with the ethnic Turkish community. Taking a random Turkish guy - lets say [Erdogan](https://www.google.com/search?q=erdogan&rlz=1C1CHZL_enAU761AU762&oq=erdogan&aqs=chrome..69i57j46j0l6.1975j0j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8) - I don’t really think I could tell much difference between him and a random German guy, if they were just a face in a conference room. YMMV. I understand what you are saying especially wrt to telling who is a minority. I work for a multi-national company in the US, and we have affinity groups in the US. Groups like : Women’s network, LGBTQ groups, African Americans, Asian Americans, etc. The groups are recognized and actively promoted by the company. When it comes to Europe though, we have the Women’s network and the LGBTQ group but none of the minority groups. Mostly the leadership in EU gives shrugs and say it’s not their thing. > [@Aspidistra](#): > > The Wiki page for Italy, for instance, says that about 8% of Italy is of migrant background, and most of those come from Eastern Europe. > **[Demographics of Italy](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Italy)** > > Demographic features of the population of Italy include population density, ethnicity, education level, health of the populace, economic status, religious affiliations and other aspects. > At the beginning of 2022, Italy had an estimated population of 58,9 million. Its population density, at 197 inhabitants per square kilometre (510/sq mi), is higher than that of most Western European countries. However, the distribution of the population is widely uneven; the most densely populated areas are t... I am not sure we are reading the same wiki - when I read it, it seems North Africans are the largest (by slim numbers) are the largest minority. ---
**Author:** ![am77494](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d2c977/32.png) [@am77494](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/am77494)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2020, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-us-or-eu-have-more-minority-representation-in-leadership-at-fortune-companies-politics/918237/5 "2020-08-16T17:03:48Z")
> [@Kimera757](#): > > The United Kingdom has 650 MPs, which are equivalent to Representatives, and their version of the Senate (the House of Lords) actually has more seats than their House (772). In short, more federal elected politicians representing a smaller number of people. That will mess up the statistics too. The House of Lords is appointed, not elected, and many of the positions are somewhat inherited (which makes it much harder for minorities to enter, although there are British peers with ethnic backgrounds). I’d like to leave UK out of the discussion (As said in the OP) because of several reasons two of which are : UK Is a non- EU country . UK has different demographics because of different colonization patterns. ---
**Author:** ![Aspidistra](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aspidistra/32/3894_2.png) [@Aspidistra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aspidistra)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2020, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-us-or-eu-have-more-minority-representation-in-leadership-at-fortune-companies-politics/918237/6 "2020-08-16T23:05:04Z")
We might be looking at different parts of the same page? Here’s mine. “ Today the Romanians make up the largest community in the country, followed by [Albanians](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albanians) (441,027) and [Moroccans](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moroccans)(422,980).[[28]](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Italy#cite_note-28)[[29]](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Italy#cite_note-29) The fourth largest community in Italy are the [Chinese](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_people). The majority of Chinese living in Italy came from the city of [Wenzhou](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wenzhou) in the province of [Zhejiang](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zhejiang).[[30]](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Italy#cite_note-30) Currently the foreign-born population of Italy was from: Europe (54%), Africa (22%), Asia (16%), the Americas (8%) and Oceania (0.06%).” So, yeah, assuming you’re talking about people who look like minorities to you - let’s say African heritage- in Italy you need to start by dividing the number you expect by six to get a proper comparison, and in Germany you need to divide by 25. That affects the affinity groups thing too. Most migrant groups, IME identify by country, not continent. I would expect there to be Moroccan-Italian, Ethiopian-Italian etc _community_ groups supporting each other. But not necessarily that there would be enough people in any one company to form critical mass for a company-based one ---
**Author:** ![am77494](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d2c977/32.png) [@am77494](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/am77494)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2020, 12:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-us-or-eu-have-more-minority-representation-in-leadership-at-fortune-companies-politics/918237/7 "2020-08-17T00:32:02Z")
> [@Aspidistra](#): > > . But not necessarily that there would be enough people in any one company to form critical mass for a company-based one I get what you are saying and hence the question. In a recent NPR story on racism in Amsterdam, it highlighted how the fire department in the city had actually brought back racist people and had successfully avoided a reform. Is there any data that this is less prevalent or is this the norm ? > **[Burn It Down - This American Life](https://www.thisamericanlife.org/684/burn-it-down)** > > Stories of people who decide the only way forward — for real change — is to burn everything to the ground. ---
**Author:** ![Aspidistra](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aspidistra/32/3894_2.png) [@Aspidistra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aspidistra)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2020, 1:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-us-or-eu-have-more-minority-representation-in-leadership-at-fortune-companies-politics/918237/8 "2020-08-17T01:27:49Z")
I think there’s probably a bunch of different questions in there. Are there racists in Europe who give minority ethnicity people a hard time? Definitely. Is it harder to get ahead in countries in Europe if you’re XYZ ethnicity? Probably depends on both the ethnicity and the country. I doubt if you can get a consistent answer for “Europe”, but undoubtedly there are specific groups that get discriminated against. My suspicion is that the biggest discriminated group is Roma, but that may not be the biggest group in the EU as such, because they have their largest populations in Eastern Europe. And - _should_ companies in the EU be being more like US companies in thinking about minority representation as a company-wide target? Again - very tricky to define minority. I had a short look at the stats for very rich businessmen in various countries, and it turns out they’re pretty decent in France - four out of the top forty richest French people are ethnic minorities - but not much in other European countries. On the other hand, the distribution of those French billionaires is kind of skewed (two Syrian, one Lebanese, one Israeli) - so does that ‘count’ as minorities doing okay in business in France? Or do we need to go deeper? ---
**Author:** ![am77494](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d2c977/32.png) [@am77494](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/am77494)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2020, 1:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-us-or-eu-have-more-minority-representation-in-leadership-at-fortune-companies-politics/918237/9 "2020-08-17T01:37:32Z")
@Aspidistra - thank you. That’s the level of information I was seeking. ---
**Author:** ![Aspidistra](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aspidistra/32/3894_2.png) [@Aspidistra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aspidistra)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2020, 2:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-us-or-eu-have-more-minority-representation-in-leadership-at-fortune-companies-politics/918237/10 "2020-08-17T02:13:43Z")
The ‘foreign-born penalty’ in politics- which seems to be independent of ethnicity- is interesting in its own right too. For instance, in Congress right now, 5% foreign-born - wider US population 15%. In Australia, about 11% of parliament foreign-born, wider population 30%. Couldn’t find official stats for European countries but various news articles put the German equivalents at 2%/7% and French 2%/10%, though they may be mashing up ‘foreign-born’ and ‘foreign extraction’. That’s a reasonably consistent (and large) affect across the board ---
**Author:** ![SanVito](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sanvito/32/2805_2.png) [@SanVito](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SanVito)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2020, 12:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-us-or-eu-have-more-minority-representation-in-leadership-at-fortune-companies-politics/918237/11 "2020-08-17T12:06:34Z")
> [@am77494](#): > > I’d like to leave UK out of the discussion (As said in the OP) because of several reasons two of which are : UK Is a non- EU country . UK has different demographics because of different colonization patterns. Every country in the EU has different demographics because of different colonisation patterns. And we are only ‘barely’ a non-EU country - we aren’t properly out til December. Your exclusion of the UK from the discussion seems pretty arbitrary. ---
**Author:** ![FlikTheBlue](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fliktheblue/32/10972_2.png) [@FlikTheBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FlikTheBlue)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2020, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-us-or-eu-have-more-minority-representation-in-leadership-at-fortune-companies-politics/918237/12 "2020-08-17T21:59:49Z")
From an American standpoint (at least from my standpoint, and what I assume to be likely), a Ukrainian, Romanian, Pole, etc. wouldn’t count as a minority person. Neither would, say, a white person from Alabama count as a minority if they move to Mississippi, which is the closest analogy I can come up with for say, a Spaniard moving to Italy. It seems that if the Europeans count such people as minorities, making a comparison between the two will be very difficult. ---
**Author:** ![Aspidistra](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aspidistra/32/3894_2.png) [@Aspidistra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aspidistra)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2020, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-us-or-eu-have-more-minority-representation-in-leadership-at-fortune-companies-politics/918237/13 "2020-08-17T22:28:17Z")
Well, countries have frequently used the presence of a bunch of their former citizens in neighbor countries as an excuse for invading said neighbor countries (see: Russia vs Ukraine, for instance). So you can see why what look like minor ethnic differences can be a big thing in practical terms. And in fact, back in the Depression when large numbers of Americans were migrating from the ‘Dust Bowl’ in search of work, weren’t they pretty much treated as ‘minorities’ in the states they ended up in? ---
**Author:** ![SanVito](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sanvito/32/2805_2.png) [@SanVito](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SanVito)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2020, 7:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-us-or-eu-have-more-minority-representation-in-leadership-at-fortune-companies-politics/918237/14 "2020-08-20T07:47:39Z")
> [@FlikTheBlue](#): > > From an American standpoint (at least from my standpoint, and what I assume to be likely), a Ukrainian, Romanian, Pole, etc. wouldn’t count as a minority person. Well that’s because Americans tend to lump all Europeans into the ‘white and therefore mainstream’ category, whereas in Europe, the cultural differences between countries can be much more marked. Minority doesn’t just mean ‘not white’. What about religious minorities? Roma? LGBTQ?