# Does the US share some blame for the London Bombings? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 8, 2005, 1:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-us-share-some-blame-for-the-london-bombings/311530 "2005-07-08T01:03:44Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![gum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bbe5ce/32.png) [@gum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gum)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2005, 1:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-us-share-some-blame-for-the-london-bombings/311530/41 "2005-07-08T13:45:42Z")
When [Theo van Gogh](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theo_van_Gogh_(film_director)) was slaughtered because he made a film about the Islmamic treatment of women, muslims and some PC people said ‘it was his own fault’. No. Only one person was at fault; the murderer; [Mohammed Bouyeri](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mohammed_Bouyeri) Civilized people talk. Barbaric people kill. I don’t - for one moment - hold America responsable for the bombings in London. The terrorists are the gulty ones. ---
**Author:** ![Mycroft\_Holmes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a5b964/32.png) [@Mycroft\_Holmes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mycroft_Holmes)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2005, 1:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-us-share-some-blame-for-the-london-bombings/311530/42 "2005-07-08T13:48:53Z")
> [@Mehitabel](#): > > but do you agree or not that regimes like Saddam’s are the main reason for the discontent that afflicts the Muslim world? Do you agree that the West should continue to support said regimes and look the other way as long as the oil keeps coming? > [@GorillaMan](#): > > You mean like in Saudi Arabia? Here is what I wrote at the end of [this post:](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=6343079&postcount=236) > [@Mycroft Holmes](#): > > A much better thing to do would be to put diplomatic pressure on people or groups that are helping the terrorists (yes, I’m looking at you Saudia Arabia). Does that answer your question? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2005, 2:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-us-share-some-blame-for-the-london-bombings/311530/43 "2005-07-08T14:21:45Z")
> [@VarlosZ](#): > > Say I sell a gun to someone I know to be thief, and he winds up using it to shoot someone in the course of a robbery. Don’t I bear some responsibility for the other person’s bad acts? I’m not saying the two situations are analogous, only that the quoted statement strikes me as odd. No. Selling a gun to a known thief is a “bad act”. You bear responsibility for that bad act. What the person does afterwards is his responsibility. Think of it this way. I’m in the store at the time of that you sell the gun. I’m not part of the transaction, but I know the guy is a thief and I see the transaction taking place. I can try to convince you not to sell the gun, but I don’t. Am I partly to blame for acts committed after the sale? ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_One](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/45deac/32.png) [@Evil\_One](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_One)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2005, 2:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-us-share-some-blame-for-the-london-bombings/311530/44 "2005-07-08T14:34:08Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Besides which, as **Diogenes** himself so rightly points out again and again, Iraq and Al Qaeda have nothing to do with each other. [Here](http://cshink.com/iraq_al-qaeda_connection.htm) is a link to a nice little summary of the facts that say otherwise. Although I’m sure they will immediately be dismissed because they do not come from a source deemed ideologically pure by those who do not want to face them. If those of you who disagree with them find them troubling, just tell yourself someone made them up. They’re all lies. Every one of them. It’ll feel better. ---
**Author:** ![Axel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/6de8d8/32.png) [@Axel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Axel)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2005, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-us-share-some-blame-for-the-london-bombings/311530/45 "2005-07-08T14:36:37Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > Think of it this way. I’m in the store at the time of that you sell the gun. I’m not part of the transaction, but I know the guy is a thief and I see the transaction taking place. I can try to convince you not to sell the gun, but I don’t. Am I partly to blame for acts committed after the sale? Does this analogy mean that you think it’s OK to partially blame the US administration, but not the American people? If so, I’m in complete agreement. ---
**Author:** ![Frostillicus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e9bcb4/32.png) [@Frostillicus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frostillicus)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2005, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-us-share-some-blame-for-the-london-bombings/311530/46 "2005-07-08T15:05:59Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > The US and Britain are allies in the war against terror. If you wish not to blame Al-Quida, then I suggest blaming Spain, as they set the precedent that if you get hit by terrorists you will do what the terrorist want. Keep repeating this canard enough times and maybe you can get some people to actually believe it. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2005, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-us-share-some-blame-for-the-london-bombings/311530/47 "2005-07-08T15:29:02Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > No. Selling a gun to a known thief is a “bad act”. You bear responsibility for that bad act. What the person does afterwards is his responsibility. > > Think of it this way. I’m in the store at the time of that you sell the gun. I’m not part of the transaction, but I know the guy is a thief and I see the transaction taking place. I can try to convince you not to sell the gun, but I don’t. Am I partly to blame for acts committed after the sale? Why is selling a gun to a known thief a “bad act”? And in your counterexample, I’d like to change one detail: you know the guy is a violent thug, not simply a thief. I make this change because if the guy has a habit of pickpocketry, I may genuinely not foresee that he’s going to use the gun to murder someone. If he’s a violent thug, and I see the purchase happen and I shrug my shoulders and do nothing, then I **do** share responsibility for the crime he later commits. My share doesn’t diminish his share at all, but it does reflect the fact that, in the face of evil, I chose to do nothing. I am well aware that my system means there’s no perfect path. Yeah, that sucks, but that’s the way it is: being perfect is not only practically impossible, it’s theoretically impossible. We live in a world with plenty of misery, and our job is to contribute to that misery as little as we can. > [@](#): > > How on God’s earth do you or I share responisbility for an action freely chosen? Because people don’t make their choices in a vaccuum: they make their choices in response to the world around them. And that world is shaped by the choices we make. If we have the power to make choices that change the world in such a way that other people are on balance less likely to choose to do evil, then we have a responsibility to do so. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2005, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-us-share-some-blame-for-the-london-bombings/311530/48 "2005-07-08T15:47:38Z")
> [@Left Hand of Dorkness](#): > > Why is selling a gun to a known thief a “bad act”? For exactly the reason it was chosen as an example. I’m not refuting that the store owner could have chosen a different course of actions, or even that he should have chosen a different course. But that doesn’t absolve the thief of any responsibility for his freely chosen actions. > [@](#): > > If we have the power to make choices that change the world in such a way that other people are on balance less likely to choose to do evil, then we have a responsibility to do so.l But this leads to absurd conclusions. Instead of typing this right now, I could be spending time with a troubled child, perhaps someone without a father figure, helping him or her grow up to be a better person. I have the power to make that choice. If that child grows up to commit a crime, I bear some of the blame accroding to your theory. Where do we draw the line? It’s interesting, because this topic goes to the very nature of what informs our political philosophies. ---
**Author:** ![Bippy\_the\_Beardless](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ac8455/32.png) [@Bippy\_the\_Beardless](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bippy_the_Beardless)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2005, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-us-share-some-blame-for-the-london-bombings/311530/49 "2005-07-08T16:00:05Z")
Personally I do hold US some slight amount to blame for the IRA bomings that have occured in London, due to the money raised in USA that helped fung Sin-Fein (sp?) activities. But US has zero blame for any Al-Quada bombing. ---
**Author:** ![Axel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/6de8d8/32.png) [@Axel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Axel)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2005, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-us-share-some-blame-for-the-london-bombings/311530/50 "2005-07-08T16:05:54Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > But this leads to absurd conclusions. Instead of typing this right now, I could be spending time with a troubled child, perhaps someone without a father figure, helping him or her grow up to be a better person. I have the power to make that choice. If that child grows up to commit a crime, I bear some of the blame accroding to your theory. > > Where do we draw the line? Maybe it isn’t a line, but a continuum. You would bear a tiny amount of responsibility, but not much. The absent father would bear much more responsibility, but not as much as the grown up kid who actually does the crime. The Uncles who didn’t bother to listen when the kid needed to talk would more responsibility than you, but less than the absent Dad. > [@Left Hand of Dorkness](#): > > My share doesn’t diminish his share at all, but it does reflect the fact that, in the face of evil, I chose to do nothing. Yup. Responsibility isn’t a set amount that decreases in each portion the more people it’s shared among. Although I would dispute that growing up without a father figure would necessarily lead a child to a life of crime. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2005, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-us-share-some-blame-for-the-london-bombings/311530/51 "2005-07-08T16:08:24Z")
> [@Bippy the Beardless](#): > > Personally I do hold US some slight amount to blame for the IRA bomings that have occured in London, due to the money raised in USA that helped fung Sin-Fein (sp?) activities. But US has zero blame for any Al-Quada bombing. Interesting. Do you blame the U.S. as a whole for this, or do you blame the individual bar patrons in Boston who dropped money in when the can came around? It is undeniably true that the IRA raised a good bit of money in the U.S. But let’s assign responsibility for that where it properly resides. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2005, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-us-share-some-blame-for-the-london-bombings/311530/52 "2005-07-08T16:13:25Z")
> [@duffer](#): > > What was that thing signed by both countries, and approved by the U.N called? Something along the lines of a treaty? Is that the word I’m looking for? You know, that document that was an official end to the hostilities? > > Iraq, being the one to surrender, had to agree to certain terms to stop the shitstorm raining from the F-16’s. In effect, the war didn’t actually end then. It was kind of on pause while Saddam got his shit together and tried to straighten up to better perform for the millions of people he held total control over. > > He failed. Repeatedly. He AGREED to certain conditions to end the war, and then repeatedly failed to live up to them. I’d say breach of contract in lay terms. Once the conditions weren’t met, deal was off. > > No mention of the person I’m alluding to, but how did that Versailles Treaty work out for Europe? Seems a pre-emptive attack at some point would have warded off a lot of suffering. > > I mentioned it in another thread. Why is this all Bush’s fault? Al-Queda is the one constant in all of this. It’s not about countries, or leaders, or political parties. Cite how Bush had anything to do with the first WTC bombings and I’ll listen. > > Otherwise you’re bringing nothing in your arsenal other than Bush is Bad. There was nothing in the UN Resolutions which authorized the US to attack the _sovereignty_ of Iraq. The invasion of Iraq was conducted in _defiance_ of the UN and was a direct violation of the UN Charter. What was specifically illegal was the _regime change_. No country has the right to _overthrow a government_ except in the case of self-defense, and that condition never existed with regard to Iraq. Nothing in the UN Resolutions said that the US had any right or authority to occupy the country and depose the government. There was no defensive justification for it, nor was there any other moral or legal justification. We committed a war crime. Americans need to own up to that and accept some moral responsibility for retaliatory actions. > [@John Mace](#): > > You seem to be stuck in a mindset that because the invasion of Iraq was illegal (in your mind) that we deserve some sort of retribution. That simply isn’t so. Each act must be judged by itself. Otherwise, we are doomed to neverending cylce of revenge and counter-revenge. > > Can’t we agree that the invasion of Iraq was wrong and the bombing of London was wrong and that neither justifies the other? Where do people keep getting the idea that I think the bombings were _justified_. I’ve said repeatedly in both threads that it _wasn’t_ justified. Once again, I am SPREADING the blame, not SHIFTING it. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2005, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-us-share-some-blame-for-the-london-bombings/311530/53 "2005-07-08T16:19:24Z")
I don’t think we have enough information. First you need to figure out exactly who did it and what their motivations were. If they would have done the same thing 10 years ago, then recent world events are not a causative factor. If they all have relatives being tortured in Guantanamo, then the US certainly does share in the blame. If we never find out exactly who did it, then we won’t know their motive or the extent of American responsibility. > [@Evil One](#): > > Here is a link to a nice little summary of the facts that say otherwise. Although I’m sure they will immediately be dismissed because they do not come from a source deemed ideologically pure by those who do not want to face them. I’m glad you posted the link although I don’t think it is reputable. I find such sites fun to read even when they are filled with ignorant vitriol. So I do dismiss the source because of its obvious bias. Undoubtedly some of the content is true, but much appears to me to be untrue. Given enough time, I’m confident much of it could be debunked. ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2005, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-us-share-some-blame-for-the-london-bombings/311530/54 "2005-07-08T16:19:46Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > There was nothing in the UN Resolutions which authorized the US to attack the _sovereignty_ of Iraq. The invasion of Iraq was conducted in _defiance_ of the UN and was a direct violation of the UN Charter. > > What was specifically illegal was the _regime change_. No country has the right to _overthrow a government_ except in the case of self-defense, and that condition never existed with regard to Iraq. Nothing in the UN Resolutions said that the US had any right or authority to occupy the country and depose the government. There was no defensive justification for it, nor was there any other moral or legal justification. We committed a war crime. Americans need to own up to that and accept some moral responsibility for retaliatory actions. > > Where do people keep getting the idea that I think the bombings were _justified_. I’ve said repeatedly in both threads that it _wasn’t_ justified. Once again, I am SPREADING the blame, not SHIFTING it. Put the blame squarely where it belongs, on the terriorists, and no one else. No one forced them to do it. Everyone of us is responsible for our actions only and no one else’s. That should be apparent to all. ---
**Author:** ![Gangster\_Octopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a8b319/32.png) [@Gangster\_Octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gangster_Octopus)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2005, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-us-share-some-blame-for-the-london-bombings/311530/55 "2005-07-08T16:22:56Z")
Could one see this happening if the Iraqi invasion didn’t happen? Absolutely. Iraq had nothing to do with this, it is the terrorists and the terrorists ony that are responsible. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2005, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-us-share-some-blame-for-the-london-bombings/311530/56 "2005-07-08T16:26:55Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > But that doesn’t absolve the thief of any responsibility for his freely chosen actions. Do you think I was suggesting otherwise? If so, I _really_ am not communicating very clearly. > [@](#): > > But this leads to absurd conclusions. Instead of typing this right now, I could be spending time with a troubled child, perhaps someone without a father figure, helping him or her grow up to be a better person. I have the power to make that choice. If that child grows up to commit a crime, I bear some of the blame accroding to your theory. > > Where do we draw the line? You’re correct about the implications of my theory; I don’t think it’s absurd, and I don’t think we need to draw a line. I don’t think you need to tear yourself up over the death of the millions of children whom you didn’t save from starvation; suffering is inevitable, and it’s inevitable that we won’t all be saints, and sometimes the only way to deal with all the death around the farm is to put clothespins on our noses. But at the same time, we need to recognize our part in shaping the world such that evil occurs, and try to minimize our choices that facilitate evil. A Kahlil Gibran quote: > [@](#): > > When one of you falls down he falls for those behind him, a caution against the stumbling stone. > > Ay, and he falls for those ahead of him, who though faster and surer of foot, yet removed not the stumbling stone. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Borgia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/larry_borgia/32/156_2.png) [@Larry\_Borgia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Borgia)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2005, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-us-share-some-blame-for-the-london-bombings/311530/57 "2005-07-08T16:31:17Z")
> [@Gangster Octopus](#): > > Could one see this happening if the Iraqi invasion didn’t happen? Absolutely. Iraq had nothing to do with this, it is the terrorists and the terrorists only that are responsible. Yes. Thank you. For heaven’s sake, there were many terror attacks prior to the Iraq war. While no one can say if this particular attack would have occured if we were not in Iraq, it is certain that AQ would have tried some attack, somewhere, regardless of our Iraq policy. I really wish that threads about Al Qaeda and threads about the Iraq war were kept as seperate as possible. Needless conflation causes confusion. ---
**Author:** ![New\_Iskander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/db5fbb/32.png) [@New\_Iskander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Iskander)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2005, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-us-share-some-blame-for-the-london-bombings/311530/58 "2005-07-08T16:38:33Z")
> [@tagos](#): > > From your own damn cite. Well, [here is your own damn BBC for you (from April 13 this year)](http://newswww.bbc.net.uk/1/hi/uk/4441763.stm): > [@](#): > > In London - although played down at the time - we now know that a similar gas attack was anticipated on the London Underground. > > 200 people from the Prime Minister to British Transport Police were warned - but the security forces were chasing shadows. They were convinced something big was planned but didn’t know what or where. > … > > If they had succeeded officials in the UK believe the impact on our lives would have been as great as 9/11. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2005, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-us-share-some-blame-for-the-london-bombings/311530/59 "2005-07-08T16:55:35Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > Where do people keep getting the idea that I think the bombings were _justified_. I’ve said repeatedly in both threads that it _wasn’t_ justified. Once again, I am SPREADING the blame, not SHIFTING it. I didn’t mean to imply that you are saying the bombings were justified. I can see how you would have interpreted my post that way, and I apoligize for poor wording. Perhaps those glasses of wine last night were a bit too much. Can I put some blame on the bartender? 🙂 How much does the illegality of the Iraq war play into your spreading of the blame in this? Suppose the bombings had been in response to our invasion of Afghanistan. Would we still have some blame? Suppose that Iraq had indeed attacked us, and we had invaded with the full approval of the UNSC. Would we still have some blame in the bombings? How about this scenario: A police chief decides to clean up the city he’s resonsible for by going after organized crime in a big way. His predecessor was lax, and let the mob run pretty much free. As a result of his crackdown, the mob retlaliates and kills the police chief’s wife. Is the chief partly to blame for his wife’s death? I hope you’ll take the time to answer those secenarios. I’m sincerely trying to understand your philosophy on this, as it is quite different from mine. ---
**Author:** ![Axel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/6de8d8/32.png) [@Axel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Axel)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2005, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-us-share-some-blame-for-the-london-bombings/311530/60 "2005-07-08T16:56:29Z")
> [@Larry Borgia](#): > > I really wish that threads about Al Qaeda and threads about the Iraq war were kept as seperate as possible. Needless conflation causes confusion. That’d be nice, if the reason for invading Iraq weren’t supposedly because of the ‘war on terror’ and al-Qieda. Apart from 9/11, what attacks were there prior to this one? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-us-share-some-blame-for-the-london-bombings/311530.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-us-share-some-blame-for-the-london-bombings/311530.md?page=4)