# Does the USA PATRIOT Act scare the crap outta YOU?? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 26, 2003, 6:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-usa-patriot-act-scare-the-crap-outta-you/209629 "2003-10-26T06:56:31Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2003, 4:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-usa-patriot-act-scare-the-crap-outta-you/209629/41 "2003-10-27T04:04:47Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by dakravel \* > \*\*the government has been looking less and less benevolent lately, and yet the citizens want to give them even more power over our daily lives. \*\* Do you think we are scared shitless and willing to give the government whatever they want as long as they can fix it? “Send the neighbor’s kid to prison without trial. My life is more important than the privacy of his email, library card records or financial activities.” ---
**Author:** ![dakravel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/85e7bf/32.png) [@dakravel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dakravel)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2003, 4:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-usa-patriot-act-scare-the-crap-outta-you/209629/42 "2003-10-27T04:26:04Z")
Errrr…, did you misunderstand me? I’m definitely not in favor of the USAPA, but there are people out there who are. And while I think the government is becoming less and less concerned with our welfare, there are others who wish to give it more power over our lives. That’s what I meant anyway. ---
**Author:** ![kniz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/c37758/32.png) [@kniz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kniz)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2003, 6:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-usa-patriot-act-scare-the-crap-outta-you/209629/43 "2003-10-27T06:42:59Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Knorf \* > \*\*Admittedly, it’s hard to tell in a forum such as this one, but how anybody could make the statement above, with an apprently straight face, is beyond comprehension. > > Are the conservatives so deluded that they actually believe their own propaganda? I’ve been assuming that informed, intelligent conservatives know that G.B.Bush, in the words of Wesley Clark (a 4-star general and former NATO commander) is a “miserable failure” as a president, but that they stand behind him for the sake of their ideology. > > Are you telling me you actually trust this guy!!! > :rolleyes: > > Knorf \*\* [ul] **\>\>Whoosh!\>\>** [/ul] ---
**Author:** ![INSANE1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/f0a364/32.png) [@INSANE1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/INSANE1)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2003, 8:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-usa-patriot-act-scare-the-crap-outta-you/209629/44 "2003-10-27T08:15:50Z")
I’m not sure if this quote is relevant, but here goes. > [@](#): > > "When the Nazis arrested the Communists, I said nothing; after all, I was not a Communist. > > When they locked up the Social Democrats, I said nothing; after all, I was not a Social Democrat. > > When they arrested the trade unionists, I said nothing; after all, I was not a trade unionist. > > When they arrested the Jews, I said nothing; after all, I was not a Jew. > > When they arrested me, there was no longer anyone who could protest." Quotation from the Rev. Martin Niemöller ---
**Author:** ![hlanelee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/3bc359/32.png) [@hlanelee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hlanelee)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2003, 10:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-usa-patriot-act-scare-the-crap-outta-you/209629/45 "2003-10-27T10:32:32Z")
I just thought that it would be fun to quote some “extremists” too. “Government big enough to supply everything you need is big enough to take everything you have … The course of history shows that as a government grows, liberty decreases.” Thomas Jefferson “America will never be destroyed from the outside. If we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves.” Abraham Lincoln I will go now and wait in the woods till they come pick me up. By the way **Reeder** , it’s called hyperbole. I know, it’s a big word, go look it up.:eek: ---
**Author:** ![hlanelee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/3bc359/32.png) [@hlanelee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hlanelee)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2003, 10:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-usa-patriot-act-scare-the-crap-outta-you/209629/46 "2003-10-27T10:44:31Z")
I’m not sure (someone please correct me if I’m wrong) but couldn’t the people that created this country, the founding fathers, be considered “terrorists”. I do not know much history, in all honesty, but wasn’t the American Revolution fought and won largely using guerilla tactics. I better run back to the woods, maybe I’ll hide in the swamp, its pretty big. ---
**Author:** ![Patricinus\_Scriblerus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/f07891/32.png) [@Patricinus\_Scriblerus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Patricinus_Scriblerus)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2003, 11:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-usa-patriot-act-scare-the-crap-outta-you/209629/47 "2003-10-27T11:38:16Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by msmith537 \* > \*\*Um… No, why don’t you formulate an actual debate? \*\* As info this was not originally posted in GD I posted it in IMHO. I didn’t rally want a debate on the merits / demerits of the Patriot Act. I simply wanted peoples opinion. ---
**Author:** ![Knorf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/58956e/32.png) [@Knorf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Knorf)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2003, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-usa-patriot-act-scare-the-crap-outta-you/209629/48 "2003-10-27T14:52:42Z")
“Those who would give up essential Liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.” -Benjamin Franklin, 1755 **THAT** is the crux of the argument. Knorf ---
**Author:** ![Debaser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3da27b/32.png) [@Debaser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Debaser)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2003, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-usa-patriot-act-scare-the-crap-outta-you/209629/49 "2003-10-27T15:46:32Z")
This is your typical patriot act bashing thread. Dozens of posters how up to talk about how scary it is and Godwin is even brought up on the first page. However, only one poster, **even sven** , actually talks about what aspects of the act he disagrees with. His is the only post that has any actual content whatsoever. Even his post is filled with scary sounding, but empty words. > [@](#): > > The first reason is that it allows for too much secrecy in the justice system. How? In what way? > [@](#): > > The justice system has always been fairly open. For example, if you are being searched, it must be approved by someone as a damn good reason and you have a right to know what that reason is. And if it turns out that the system is being abused, you have a way to contest it. And abuses are found all the time. It sounds like you are talking about warrants here. The patriot act still requires warrants for searching and wire tapping. A judge still needs to see a damn good reason (probable cause) before issuing a warrant. This hasn’t changed. > [@](#): > > But the Patriot act allows for a huge amount of secrecy in many aspects of criminal investigations. And with that kind of secrecy, there is simply no check on abuse. In what way? If the amount of secrecy is _huge_, can you give an example of it? > [@](#): > > Not only does the Patirot Act allow for massive indiscriminate secret surviellance, but it takes away the safegaurds that keep us from ever knowing should that survillence get out of hand- much less ways of contesting it. “massive indiscriminate secret surviellance” Band name! What safeguards does the act take away? Are you suggesting that warrants are no longer required? If so, you are wrong. > [@](#): > > I really don’t like the idea of huge branches of the government secretly acting on citizens without having to have a reason and without having any way to check on what they are actually doing. I don’t like the idea either. But, it isn’t happening. If you think it is, please show a cite with an example of the government secretly acting (whatever this means) on it’s citizens without having a reason and without having any way to check on what they are actually doing (whatever this is). > [@](#): > > I generally make it a policy not to support giving the government any powers that I wouldn’t want to have, say, Hitler to have. We can’t count on our government always being benevolent, and if someone evil is going to be doing stuff, we shouldn’t lay out the red legal carpet that would make their nefarious plans easier. Here comes Godwin! Evil, nefarious! Hitler, even! A little thick on the dramatic, without actually making any claims. > [@](#): > > Many of the computer related aspects of it are clearly about copy right enforcment prosecution Many? Which ones? How? WTF are you talking about? > [@](#): > > It seems like it could also be used to target protest movements, student groups and others that question the government’s actions. In secret. bad scene. It seems like it could? You type an entire post full of scary sounding language without actually accusing the act of anything specific. I have read it and I simply don’t see the things there that you claim exist. Show me in the Patriot Act where it says anything about copywright protection. Where it says anything about protest groups, student organizations, or ‘anyone who questions the government’s actions’. These things simply don’t exist, from what I have read of the act. ---
**Author:** ![Dogface](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9d8465/32.png) [@Dogface](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dogface)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2003, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-usa-patriot-act-scare-the-crap-outta-you/209629/50 "2003-10-27T16:03:50Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by hlanelee \* > \*\*but wasn’t the American Revolution fought and won largely using guerilla tactics. \*\* No. So long as the British could confidently control the major cities and transport routes, the rebellion would eventually wither on the vine. Extend an amnesty here, extend an amnesty there, and the rebellion would falter. The rebels knew this, which was why they sought alliance with France (who provided an Atlantic Ocean navy) and hired men like von Steuben. Hollywood and bad pseudohistories have long over-emphasized the importance of guerilla tactics for the rebels. ---
**Author:** ![hapaXL](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/94ad74/32.png) [@hapaXL](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hapaXL)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2003, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-usa-patriot-act-scare-the-crap-outta-you/209629/51 "2003-10-27T20:34:40Z")
Why? The fact that I can be branded a terrorist for activities I’ve often participated in (protesting), arrested and held indefinitely with no legal representation or family notification doesn’t bother me at all. Who needs that moldy old Bill of Rights, anyway? ---
**Author:** ![Merijeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@Merijeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merijeek)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2003, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-usa-patriot-act-scare-the-crap-outta-you/209629/52 "2003-10-27T22:32:05Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Gadfly \* > \*\*It definately would, if I was in the US. I’ll just stay in Canada and munch on my **french** toast, thank you. \*\* That would be **freedom toast** you damned hippie. -Joe, better Nate than Lever ---
**Author:** ![hlanelee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/3bc359/32.png) [@hlanelee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hlanelee)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2003, 12:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-usa-patriot-act-scare-the-crap-outta-you/209629/53 "2003-10-28T00:24:25Z")
**France** helped us win our freedom. I would have never known. I freely admit, I would rather do calculus than study history, and I am the lessor man for it. Thank you, **Dogface** , you have done your part in the fight against ignorance today. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2003, 1:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-usa-patriot-act-scare-the-crap-outta-you/209629/54 "2003-10-28T01:05:32Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by hapaXL \* > Why? The fact that I can be branded a terrorist for activities I’ve often participated in (protesting), arrested and held indefinitely with no legal representation or family notification doesn’t bother me at all. Who needs that moldy old Bill of Rights, anyway? Persistant ignorance is truly frustrating - but at what point does it cross the line into lying? If someone adamantly posts inaccuarate information without any effort to learn, is there a point at which they can be called a liar, because they are past the point of “honest mistake” through persistant refusal to be educated? What SPECIFIC portion of the Patriot Act, **hapaXL** , provides that you can be arrested for protesting and held indefinitely without legal representation? Name it. You can’t. It doesn’t exist. Now, will this lesson sink in, or will subsequent posters ignore this and continue to rant? ---
**Author:** ![Achernar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e274bd/32.png) [@Achernar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Achernar)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2003, 2:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-usa-patriot-act-scare-the-crap-outta-you/209629/55 "2003-10-28T02:38:14Z")
Here’s what Sec 215 of the Patriot Act adds to the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act of 1978 (boldin’ by me): > [@](#): > > (a)[ul]li The Director of the Federal Bureau of Investigation or a designee of the Director (whose rank shall be no lower than Assistant Special Agent in Charge) may make an application for an order requiring the production of any tangible things (including books, records, papers, documents, and other items) for an investigation to protect against international terrorism or clandestine intelligence activities, provided that such investigation of a United States person is not conducted solely upon the basis of activities protected by the first amendment to the Constitution.[/li]li An investigation conducted under this section shall—/li be conducted under guidelines approved by the Attorney General under Executive Order 12333 (or a successor order); and > (B) not be conducted of a United States person solely upon the basis of activities protected by the first amendment to the Constitution of the United States.[/ul] > (b) Each application under this section—[ul] > li shall be made to—/li a judge of the court established by section 103(a); or > (B) a United States Magistrate Judge under chapter 43 of title 28, United States Code, who is publicly designated by the Chief Justice of the United States to have the power to hear applications and grant orders for the production of tangible things under this section on behalf of a judge of that court; and > li shall specify that the records concerned are sought for an authorized investigation conducted in accordance with subsection (a)(2) to obtain foreign intelligence information not concerning a United States person or to protect against international terrorism or clandestine intelligence activities.[/ul]/li[ul]li Upon an application made pursuant to this section, the judge shall enter an ex parte order as requested, or as modified, approving the release of records if the judge finds that the application meets the requirements of this section.[/li]li An order under this subsection shall not disclose that it is issued for purposes of an investigation described in subsection (a).[/ul][/li]**(d) No person shall disclose to any other person (other than those persons necessary to produce the tangible things under this section) that the Federal Bureau of Investigation has sought or obtained tangible things under this section.** > > (e) A person who, in good faith, produces tangible things under an order pursuant to this section shall not be liable to any other person for such production. Such production shall not be deemed to constitute a waiver of any privilege in any other proceeding or context. Now, I agree that it says that you can’t be pegged just for exercising free speech (Sec (a)(2)(B)). [The ACLU does say](http://www.aclu.org/SafeandFree/SafeandFree.cfm?ID=12263&c=206), “The FBI does not even have to show a reasonable suspicion that the records are related to criminal activity… All the government needs to do is make the broad assertion that the request is related to an ongoing terrorism or foreign intelligence investigation.” But I admit I don’t know where that comes from. However, more importantly I think, this modification makes it easier to conduct secret searches and surveillance. See especially Sec (d) above. If the FBI requests your library record, the library can’t tell you. This is a problem because it removes oversight of the whole process. What if my records are requested by something _I_ think is protected under the First Amendment but _they_ don’t think is? How can I appeal if I don’t know it’s even going on? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2003, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-usa-patriot-act-scare-the-crap-outta-you/209629/56 "2003-10-28T14:48:34Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Achernar \* > However, more importantly I think, this modification makes it easier to conduct secret searches and surveillance. See especially Sec (d) above. If the FBI requests your library record, the library can’t tell you. This is a problem because it removes oversight of the whole process. What if my records are requested by something _I_ think is protected under the First Amendment but _they_ don’t think is? How can I appeal if I don’t know it’s even going on? I agree that the Act makes it easier for the government to conduct secret searches, although those searches still must be judicially approved, and must involve a foreign or clandestine intelligence investigation, not an ordinary criminal investigation. To the extent that your post, **Achernar** , was intended to answer my comments above, it’s not at all on point. If your post is just general commentary, it’s quite accurate. - Rick ---
**Author:** ![Merijeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@Merijeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merijeek)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2003, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-usa-patriot-act-scare-the-crap-outta-you/209629/57 "2003-10-28T15:09:00Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Bricker \* > \*\*I agree that the Act makes it easier for the government to conduct secret searches, although those searches still must be judicially approved, and must involve a foreign or clandestine intelligence investigation, not an ordinary criminal investigation. > > To the extent that your post, **Achernar** , was intended to answer my comments above, it’s not at all on point. If your post is just general commentary, it’s quite accurate. > > - Rick \*\* Soo… You’ve got Bad Guy in power. Bad Guy has an Enemies List. Bad Guy appointed Judge. Bad Guy appoints an FBI director and tells him to crush Innocent Guy X. FBI director (who was appointed by Bad Guy) must get approval from Judge (who was appointed by Bad Guy) to start digging into the life of Innocent Guy X in an attempt to destroy him. How, exactly, does the need for an approval from Judge matter in the least? -Joe, not good, not nice, just right ---
**Author:** ![hapaXL](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/94ad74/32.png) [@hapaXL](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hapaXL)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2003, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-usa-patriot-act-scare-the-crap-outta-you/209629/58 "2003-10-28T23:51:44Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Bricker \* > \*\*What SPECIFIC portion of the Patriot Act, **hapaXL** , provides that you can be arrested for protesting and held indefinitely without legal representation? > > Name it. > > You can’t. It doesn’t exist. > \*\* SEC. 802. DEFINITION OF DOMESTIC TERRORISM. (a) DOMESTIC TERRORISM DEFINED- Section 2331 of title 18, United States Code, is amended– (1) in paragraph (1)(B)(iii), by striking `by assassination or kidnapping' and inserting `by mass destruction, assassination, or kidnapping’; (2) in paragraph (3), by striking `and'; (3) in paragraph (4), by striking the period at the end and inserting `; and’; and (4) by adding at the end the following: \*\*`(5) the term `domestic terrorism’ means activities that– `(A) involve acts dangerous to human life that are a violation of the criminal laws of the United States or of any State; `(B) appear to be intended– `(i) to intimidate or coerce a civilian population; `(ii) to influence the policy of a government by intimidation or coercion; or \*\* `(iii) to affect the conduct of a government by mass destruction, assassination, or kidnapping; and `© occur primarily within the territorial jurisdiction of the United States.’. So I’m out in the street blocking traffic in a protest. I’ve already heard in the mainstream media about the great danger of protestors preventing fire, police or ambulance vehicles from reaching their destination. Am I meeting term (A) yet? The acts are definitely illegal and could be interpreted as “dangerous to human life.” As far as term (B) goes, if I’m not trying to coerce people and the government, what the hell am I doing out there? (I believe the “or” after term B.ii means that B.iii isn’t necessary to be defined a terrorist. But I could be wrong. Help,anyone?) © is given. So I don’t find it all that ridiculous that I could, under these rather vague definitions, be branded a domestic terrorist if my government chose to do so. As for the being held indefinitely, we’ve already seen that happen to hundreds of Arabs and South Asians who were suspected of associating with terrorists. ---
**Author:** ![Earl\_of\_Sandwhich](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/91b2a8/32.png) [@Earl\_of\_Sandwhich](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Earl_of_Sandwhich)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2003, 2:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-usa-patriot-act-scare-the-crap-outta-you/209629/59 "2003-10-29T02:25:11Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Merijeek \* > \*\*Soo… > > You’ve got Bad Guy in power. > > Bad Guy has an Enemies List. > > Bad Guy appointed Judge. > > Bad Guy appoints an FBI director and tells him to crush Innocent Guy X. > > FBI director (who was appointed by Bad Guy) must get approval from Judge (who was appointed by Bad Guy) to start digging into the life of Innocent Guy X in an attempt to destroy him. > > How, exactly, does the need for an approval from Judge matter in the least? > > -Joe, not good, not nice, just right \*\* It matters because in this country, we have an independent judiciary. The President cannot just tell a judge how to rule. Of the eight Supreme Court Justices who ruled that President Nixon had to turn over the Watergate tapes (Rehnquist recused himself because he had worked in the Nixon Justice Department), three were Nixon appointees. That case ultimately helped lead to Nixon resigning. Of the nine Justices who ruled against President Clinton in Clinton v. Jones, which ultimately led to Clinton’s impeachment, two were Clinton appointees. In neither case could the President have called up a Justice the night before and ordered him to vote one way or another. That said, I am deeply suspicious of anything the Bush Administration says or does. ---
**Author:** ![Achernar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e274bd/32.png) [@Achernar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Achernar)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2003, 5:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-usa-patriot-act-scare-the-crap-outta-you/209629/60 "2003-10-29T05:35:33Z")
While I did quote a section of the Act _because_ of your post, **Bricker** , I did not intend it to be in response to your post _per se_. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Bricker \* > I agree that the Act makes it easier for the government to conduct secret searches, although those searches still must be judicially approved, and must involve a foreign or clandestine intelligence investigation, not an ordinary criminal investigation. What exactly is a foreign intelligence investigation is anyway? Does it relate at all to this quote from the ACLU page I linked to above? > [@](#): > > The government no longer has to show evidence that the subjects of search orders are an “agent of a foreign power,” a requirement that previously protected Americans against abuse of this authority. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-usa-patriot-act-scare-the-crap-outta-you/209629.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-usa-patriot-act-scare-the-crap-outta-you/209629.md?page=4)