# Does "The West Wing" piss anyone else off? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 13, 2002, 1:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-west-wing-piss-anyone-else-off/103358 "2002-04-13T01:45:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![hansel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/6bbea6/32.png) [@hansel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hansel)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2002, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-west-wing-piss-anyone-else-off/103358/21 "2002-04-13T18:09:11Z")
I love West Wing generally, but most when they have little scenes where the right wing has a good comeback. On the episode where Ainsley Hayes is touring the White House to be offered a job, she confronts Sam outside the president’s office. Guns come up, and Sam makes an impassioned speech about the people who shot Josh didn’t break any laws until they actually pulled the trigger in the direction of the President, climaxing with the liberal gut-instinct that second amendment whackos don’t believe in the right, they just like guns. Ainsley calmly agrees, and then comes back with the statement that gun-control freaks really just don’t like people who like guns. Sam is speechless. Yes, the show is biased towards a liberal viewpoint–it probably has to be, since shrinking the federal government makes for poorer drama than championing the rights of the oppressed. But the show does have it’s moments where the other side gets their licks in. More than that, though, The West Wing does a great job of showing how a lot of liberal pretensions towards a just society are necessarily sacrificed on the alter of political expediency and limited resources. The more subtle influence of the show may be to make wet liberals a bit more realistic about what’s possible and what’s not. ---
**Author:** ![hansel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/6bbea6/32.png) [@hansel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hansel)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2002, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-west-wing-piss-anyone-else-off/103358/22 "2002-04-13T18:12:29Z")
I remember reading a couple seasons ago that Peggy Noonan was brought in to doctor the occasional script, just to overcome Sorkin’s monolithically liberal bias. I also assumed that the infrequent scenes where Ainsley Hayes gets to win where her work. Is that still the case? ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2002, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-west-wing-piss-anyone-else-off/103358/23 "2002-04-13T19:25:09Z")
I remain continually amazed that anyone would allow a television show to piss them off. Aren’t there important things in the world? ---
**Author:** ![furt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/439d5e/32.png) [@furt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/furt)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2002, 11:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-west-wing-piss-anyone-else-off/103358/24 "2002-04-13T23:17:30Z")
I hate it too, if only because I so much want to like it. A show on the same subjects, but showing that most issues are not right-and-wrong and that both sides have good points would be much more interesting. Lecturing is not. So what happens in 2006? ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2002, 11:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-west-wing-piss-anyone-else-off/103358/25 "2002-04-13T23:17:44Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Muffin \* > \*\*SenorBeef, you are entirely correct about The West Wing being slanted to the left. > > Welcome to Television Land, where with the press of a button, you can remove an offensive show from your universe and replace it with something of your own liking. You have freedom to chose what you watch. A Republican’s dream. > > More seriously, though, just as kids are taught critical awreness through literary analysis, I think that effort should be made to extend such analysis into film and television. \*\* I’m aware, and that’s why I don’t watch it. What my annoyance is, primarily, is that it has good production values, the plots can be fairly decent, and it’s a very watchable show, if you’re not very strong in your political beliefs. And people who are on the fence, politically, might watch this show and think they’re viewing a fair argument for both sides, and it could gradually influence their perceptions. They don’t even _try_ to write both sides of an argument. They write one side as Enlightened Monologue Time, and the other side as Bumbling Morons Time, and people who aren’t ‘sensitive’ to this, which includes most people without strong political opinions, can be influenced, in the same way that propoganda is influenced. And so shows like this - and they’re all over, this is just one rather glaring example - ‘propogandize’ politically neutral people to go left. It comes out to very polished, pretty well written, propoganda. And with the practical utter dominance the left has on hollywood, it comes from all angles. People who might otherwise become reasonably conservative are ushered from those views from constant propoganda bombardment. And don’t tell me people are too smart to fall for it - they’re not. 🙂 Even for smart people, seeing things presented to you like that… you absorb it bit by bit, even if you think it’s wrong. It ‘desensitizes’ you, I guess. Anyway, I figured I’d waste your time by ranting. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2002, 11:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-west-wing-piss-anyone-else-off/103358/26 "2002-04-13T23:24:16Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by andros \* > \*\*I remain continually amazed that anyone would allow a television show to piss them off. Aren’t there important things in the world? \*\* To sum up the rant I already made a bit - I’m not pissed at the show - I’m pissed that politically neutral people grow up in an environment where only the left seems to be able to get out their message. And they can present it in an atmosphere where they give the audience an impression that both sides give their best arguments, when in reality, the show is written so that the liberal characters are Enlightened and Correct, and the conservative characters are money-grubbing and evil. Entertainment in this format, unchecked, can be propoganda. What pisses me off is that young people are more and more liberal by default, because that’s all they’re ever exposed to. ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2002, 1:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-west-wing-piss-anyone-else-off/103358/27 "2002-04-14T01:10:31Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by SenorBeef \* > **only the left seems to be able to get out their message** There are lots of shows that are oriented to the right, particularly the cops and robber type shows where the political orientation is not discussed, but rather is assumed as part of the background. Same goes for a great many US blockbuster movies where the shoot-em-up, beat-em-up rugged individualist lives within a right oriented mindset. I can’t say as there are many social worker movies or tree hugger shows out there. Besides, in the open market in the US capitalist system, there is nothing at all to prevent right oriented people from bringing right oriented shows to market. It’s one thing to identify a show as being leftist propoganda, and quite another to say that only shows with such a bent are able to make it to air. ---
**Author:** ![Oblong](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/c0e974/32.png) [@Oblong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oblong)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2002, 1:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-west-wing-piss-anyone-else-off/103358/28 "2002-04-14T01:35:18Z")
I’m a conservative and I love the show. It’s not at all preachy, not like the stuff that comes out in the movies (The American President, The Conteder). The only preachy episode I’ve seen was the stand alone episode where they talked to us about terrorism as if we were 9 year olds. In fact, I remember the debate referred to. It was between Bartlett and Hoynes (his VP). A 9 year old girl died in crossfire when a guy opened fire in a church. He was shot by someone carrying a gun. Hoynes is from Texas and either pro-gun or as much in favor of gun control as someone from Texas can be. He’s a moderate anyway (he referred to himself as Republicans favorite Democrat). Hoynes told Bartlett that if the guy wasn’t there with his gun it would have been a lot worse and Bartlett replies “she was a nine year old girl”. Ainsley, the conservative of the group, usually wins her arguments. It’s liberal because it’s a liberal administration. Of course everything will be from their point of view. For instance, when the MS thing came about, nobody in the adminstration complained that Bartlett was being vilified. They new it was a legitimate scandal and they dealt with it. It treats the conflicts between the Republicans and Dems as just politics. There’s no moral high ground ehind it. When the show came on I assumed it would be crap like the two movies I saw. I watched a few episodes and got hooked. ---
**Author:** ![ShibbOleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/848f3c/32.png) [@ShibbOleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ShibbOleth)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2002, 1:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-west-wing-piss-anyone-else-off/103358/29 "2002-04-14T01:56:24Z")
I love this show, but it’s just a show. I constantly remind my young children that what they see on television is not real, just someone’s idea of entertainment. This started as a way to keep them from getting spooked by the scary stuff but easily carries over to other part of the tv spectrum. Yes, it’s unfortunate that the show is often one-sided and preachy; this is the most common complaint in the West Wing threads in Cafe Society. Sometimes I agree with the politics, sometimes not. On the other hand, any bias in television and film is easily offset by some of the vitriol spewed forth by Rush Limbaugh, Gordon Liddy and the local version thereof. In both cases I hope that people are sensible enough to not take what they hear or see as gospel. Unfortunately there are some out there that will fall prey to this sort of propaganda without applying any kind of critical thinking, on both sides of the spectrum. Maybe they balance each other out. ---
**Author:** ![amarinth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3be4f8/32.png) [@amarinth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amarinth)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2002, 2:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-west-wing-piss-anyone-else-off/103358/30 "2002-04-14T02:11:48Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by SenorBeef \* > \*\*I’m pissed that politically neutral people grow up in an environment where only the left seems to be able to get out their message. \*\* Law & Order. Law & Order Criminal Intent. Law & Order: SVU. JAG. NYPD Blue. The District. (from the episodes I saw of them) The Shield & Third Watch. Admittedly, I haven’t yet seen the new supreme court shows, as they look incredibly dumb - but I’m sure that the right is at least given lip service on one of them. & that’s just off the top of my head. The right is getting out their message all the time. Perhaps you don’t watch the shows where it happens. Television is about cash…if you create a good show, with good dialogue, good characters, well developed plot lines, _and_ get an audience, you can present whatever viewpoint you wish. Hell, if you create a bad show, but get an audience, you can present whatever viewpoint you choose. Even if they do have ultra-liberal values (an assertion I find highly suspect) in Hollywood, they’re not going to turn down millions of dollars in ad revenue over a political point of view. ---
**Author:** ![hansel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/6bbea6/32.png) [@hansel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hansel)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2002, 2:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-west-wing-piss-anyone-else-off/103358/31 "2002-04-14T02:35:12Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by SenorBeef \* > \*\* > > To sum up the rant I already made a bit - I’m not pissed at the show - I’m pissed that politically neutral people grow up in an environment where only the left seems to be able to get out their message. And they can present it in an atmosphere where they give the audience an impression that both sides give their best arguments, when in reality, the show is written so that the liberal characters are Enlightened and Correct, and the conservative characters are money-grubbing and evil. > > Entertainment in this format, unchecked, can be propoganda. What pisses me off is that young people are more and more liberal by default, because that’s all they’re ever exposed to. \*\* So really, what you’re pissed off about is the fact that liberals aren’t merely a crankly and ignorable minority. We have a Republican president, a Republican house, and a balanced Senate. Remind me again how the liberal establishment is oppressing all right-thinking people. ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2002, 4:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-west-wing-piss-anyone-else-off/103358/32 "2002-04-14T04:17:54Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by SenorBeef \* > \*\* What pisses me off is that young people are more and more liberal by default, because that’s all they’re ever exposed to. \*\* From your lips to God’s ears… ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2002, 5:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-west-wing-piss-anyone-else-off/103358/33 "2002-04-14T05:24:51Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by hansel \* > \*\* > > So really, what you’re pissed off about is the fact that liberals aren’t merely a crankly and ignorable minority. > > We have a Republican president, a Republican house, and a balanced Senate. Remind me again how the liberal establishment is oppressing all right-thinking people. \*\* Republicans, these days, might as well be liberal, half of them show no signs of conservatism. The culture, as a whole, is becoming more liberal because of predominately liberal education they receive, through school, television, the news, etc. Even the “right wingers” are further left than they used to be - and I can’t even think of a person I know under 30 or so that’s even remotely conservative. ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2002, 5:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-west-wing-piss-anyone-else-off/103358/34 "2002-04-14T05:26:42Z")
And… I’m not trying to turn this into a “liberal society blah blah blah” debate, I just wanted to see if other people felt as I did about “The West Wing”. ---
**Author:** ![Kaitlyn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/73ab20/32.png) [@Kaitlyn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kaitlyn)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2002, 5:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-west-wing-piss-anyone-else-off/103358/35 "2002-04-14T05:28:19Z")
> [@](#): > > Anything Aaron Sorkin touches seems to me to turn into a bunch of liberal propoganda. How about _Malice_? > [@](#): > > I have an M.D. from Harvard, I am board certified in cardio-thoracic medicine and trauma surgery, I have been awarded citations from seven different medical boards in New England, and I am never, ever sick at sea. So I ask you; when someone goes into that chapel and they fall on their knees and they pray to God that their wife doesn’t miscarry or that their daughter doesn’t bleed to death or that their mother doesn’t suffer acute neural trama from postoperative shock, who do you think they’re praying to? Now, go ahead and read your Bible, _Dennis_, and you go to your church, and, with any luck, you might win the annual raffle, but if you’re looking for God, he was in operating room number two on November 17, and he doesn’t like to be second guessed. You ask me if I have a God complex. Let me tell you something: I am God. I don’t detect any liberal propaganda there, just some damn fine writing. Your main complaint doesn’t seem to be that “The West Wing” advocates a liberal viewpoint, but that it does it well. ---
**Author:** ![Big\_Kahuna\_Burger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e0b2c6/32.png) [@Big\_Kahuna\_Burger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Big_Kahuna_Burger)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2002, 5:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-west-wing-piss-anyone-else-off/103358/36 "2002-04-14T05:33:34Z")
[Peggy Noonan disagrees](http://www.opinionjournal.com/columnists/pnoonan/?id=105001705) ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2002, 5:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-west-wing-piss-anyone-else-off/103358/37 "2002-04-14T05:52:09Z")
I don’t watch TV, so I’ve never even seen this show. But the other day at work, a woman on my team, who I work closely with, started going on and on about how much she loves the show, describing the submarine crisis episode, praising the show no end. Maybe she was trying to subtly communicate liberalism to me, to see if I would respond. She and I get along better with each other than with the rest of the team, and she’s probably guessed correctly that I’m liberal too. We work in an ultraconservative workplace, and feel inhibited from being openly liberal, so when the few liberals there find each other, it’s instant bonding. Hmm, maybe I should go and start watching the show! My ex-wife was really liberal. The first time we saw the film _Gandhi_, she exclaimed: “It’s nice to see Martin Sheen working again!” (He had a bit role in it as a reporter.) A few years ago, Sheen was arrested for civil disobedience protesting the giant toxic waste incinerator in eastern Ohio. He was the first protestor over the fence. This is somebody I really like! ---
**Author:** ![hansel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/6bbea6/32.png) [@hansel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hansel)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2002, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-west-wing-piss-anyone-else-off/103358/38 "2002-04-14T15:12:55Z")
Best quote from Noonan’s article: > [@](#): > > A reporter once asked me if I thought, as John Podhoretz had written , that “The West Wing” is, essentially, left-wing pornography. I said no, that’s completely wrong. “The West Wing” is a left-wing nocturnal emission–undriven by facts, based on dreams, its impulses as passionate as they are involuntary and as unreflective as they are genuine. ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2002, 2:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-west-wing-piss-anyone-else-off/103358/39 "2002-04-15T02:37:17Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Number Six \* > \*\* > > How about _Malice_? \*\* Never seen it. > [@](#): > > \*\* > I don’t detect any liberal propaganda there, just some damn fine writing. Your main complaint doesn’t seem to be that “The West Wing” advocates a liberal viewpoint, but that it does it well. \*\* No, actually, my main problem is that it pretends to present an opposing viewpoint fairly, when in reality, it sets up the opposing viewpoint to be easily defeated and look stupid. ---
**Author:** ![hansel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/6bbea6/32.png) [@hansel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hansel)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2002, 2:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-west-wing-piss-anyone-else-off/103358/40 "2002-04-15T02:47:55Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by SenorBeef \* > \*\*No, actually, my main problem is that it pretends to present an opposing viewpoint fairly, when in reality, it sets up the opposing viewpoint to be easily defeated and look stupid. \*\* So your complaint is that a show with a liberal perspective isn’t constantly undermining its own philosophy? I think you’ve got blinders on. I’m continually impressed with The West Wing’s presentation of information and arguments that I don’t expect to come from liberals, that don’t strike me as particularly liberal, and that cause me to question certain liberal beliefs I hold. For example, my views on the treaty regarding the International War Crimes Tribunal that the U.S. refuses to sign were flipped 180 degrees following the scene between Leo and Gerald McRaney, where McRaney plays an air force general who informs Leo that during the Vietnam War, Leo bombed a civilian target, causing 11 deaths. The result of the scene was the president _doesn’t_ sign the treaty, which is a conservative position, and one with which I agree now. Do you really hate The West Wing, or are you expressing a symptom of a more general angst about liberalism? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-west-wing-piss-anyone-else-off/103358.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-west-wing-piss-anyone-else-off/103358.md?page=3)