# Does this bother you as much as it does me? (John Edwards) **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 7, 2004, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-this-bother-you-as-much-as-it-does-me-john-edwards/254001 "2004-07-07T20:30:27Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Earthworm\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f07891/32.png) [@Earthworm\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Earthworm_Jim)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2004, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-this-bother-you-as-much-as-it-does-me-john-edwards/254001/61 "2004-07-08T14:48:44Z")
> [@Excalibre](#): > > Who said it’s not greedy corporations? The insurance companies are raking it in, even as they lower the standard of care. And basic tests and so forth are shockingly expensive as well - medical procedures themselves cost far more than they should. Look at the ridiculous price of prescription drugs. Corporations are making tons of money off of health care, and the lawsuits, justified or not, are a sliver compared to what the drug companies and insurance companies are making. I realize this is the Pit and not GD, but do you have a cite? The article I linked earlier indicates insurance companies have been raising prices because they’ve been losing money (not raking it in). Medical tests and prescription drugs **do** cost, but do they cost too much? By what standard? ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2004, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-this-bother-you-as-much-as-it-does-me-john-edwards/254001/62 "2004-07-08T14:57:41Z")
> [@Beelzebubba](#): > > Dammit, **minty** , you weren’t there when I previewed the last one. > > I’m curious then - if greedy lawyers, greedy doctors, greedy corporations, and greedy plaintiffs **aren’t** the cause of rising health care costs - what are?? All the sources seem to agree that all the dollar amounts are rising - health insurance, malpractice insurance, jury payouts. Where (oh where?) is the money going? Why do you assume ‘greedy’ client and not ‘heinously injured’ client? Do you feel that all clients are simply looking for a payoff? ---
**Author:** ![minty\_green](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f6c823/32.png) [@minty\_green](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/minty_green)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2004, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-this-bother-you-as-much-as-it-does-me-john-edwards/254001/63 "2004-07-08T15:07:59Z")
> [@Dewey Cheatem Undhow](#): > > _Ahem._ 😃 ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2004, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-this-bother-you-as-much-as-it-does-me-john-edwards/254001/64 "2004-07-08T15:44:40Z")
> [@Lamar Mundane](#): > > That’s just a stupid and lazy reply. Where it is published has no bearing on whether it is true or not. Your second sentence is true, but notice what you are saying: some guy ranting to the air on a street corner could say something that turns out to be true. The question is whether he’s a valid cite. And the answer is **no** , because he’s not **reliably** true. The same holds for the WorldNetDummy. Dismissing them is hardly a stupid and lazy reply; I’ve long since put in my hours ascertaining their unreliability. (I recall having started a thread once on the subject of the WND, but it was back when we were still on UBB, and seems to have disappeared.) Having already done my homework, it’s hardly lazy to rely on its results in evaluating a source. It would be stupid to act as if they were legit, when they aren’t. > [@](#): > > It it doesn’t bother you guys, thats fine, but suing doctors because a kid is born damaged is not a praiseworthy way to make a living, IMO. So should the parents just be stuck with the bills and the burden if physician negligence leaves them with a child who will never be able to take care of himself? I’m missing something here. > [@](#): > > If you think Edwards and his firm took on these cases out of concern for the little kiddos welfare, then you are beyond naive. Doctors and hospitals have deep pockets that plaintiffs lawyers like to go diving in. And their defense lawyers, who draw on those same deep pockets, are more laudable? Again, I’m missing something here. One great thing about our system is that it doesn’t rely on perfect motives; that’s why it’s as robust as it is. The idea is that checks and balances allow good to come out of a mixture of good and dubious motives. Victims should ideally be made whole. There’s nothing wrong with wanting to make a lot of money. I don’t see where it’s a sin that John Edwards became rich by making victims whole, economically speaking. ---
**Author:** ![Sister\_Vigilante](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9de0a6/32.png) [@Sister\_Vigilante](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sister_Vigilante)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2004, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-this-bother-you-as-much-as-it-does-me-john-edwards/254001/65 "2004-07-08T15:54:30Z")
[Junk Science in the Bush Administration](http://www.thenation.com/doc.mhtml?i=20040308&c=1&s=kennedy) [Latest Bush Appointee believes women should be subservient.](http://166.70.44.66/2004/Jul/07072004/utah/181590.asp) That guy also had to apologize for stating his belief that “conceptions from rape occur with approximately the same frequency as snowfall in Miami.” I’ll stick with the evil lawyer, thanks. ---
**Author:** ![Shayna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shayna/32/17976_2.png) [@Shayna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shayna)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2004, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-this-bother-you-as-much-as-it-does-me-john-edwards/254001/66 "2004-07-08T16:21:15Z")
> [@Beelzebubba](#): > > Medical tests and prescription drugs **do** cost, but do they cost too much? By what standard? It’s only anecdotal, which I know is frowned upon here, but just as an example, when I was living in Mexico, the exact same birth control pills I was paying $23/month for in the U.S. were… are you sitting?.. $1/month. No, that is not a typo. ONE DOLLAR. Same U.S. manufacturer, same brand, same exact prescription. ONE DOLLAR. And it’s only been recently that some insurance companies have started covering birth control pills on their drug plans – for decades we had to cover the cost 100% out-of-pocket (and many women still do). Now, I don’t know what standards _you_ use for comparison, but by _my_ standards, a 2300% markup is “too much.” As for non-anecdotal cites, a quick search reveals this recent article: > [@](#): > > [http://www.newsday.com/news/nationworld/nation/ny-usdrug0701,0,3743891.story?coll=ny-top-headlines](http://www.newsday.com/news/nationworld/nation/ny-usdrug0701,0,3743891.story?coll=ny-top-headlines) > Study: 1st quarter prescription drug prices jump > > July 1, 2004 > WASHINGTON – Prices for prescription drugs most often used by seniors jumped the first part of the year, only months after the new Medicare law promised savings on drug costs, according to an AARP study released Wednesday. > > The average wholesale cost of brand-name drugs increased 3.4 percent during the first three months of the year compared to the 1.2 percent rate of inflation, the AARP study found. Furthermore, the study found that from April 2003 to March 2004, drug prices jumped 7.2 percent. Thankfully, we do have some representatives who are working diligently to try to curtail this… > [@](#): > > [News Journal](http://www.cleburnenews.com/news/2004/cn-local-0708-0-4g08i3922.htm) > > 07-08-2004 > > AARP State Director Joan Carter has announced AARP’s endorsement of the bipartisan bill to legalize the safe importation of prescription drugs, beginning with Canada. > > AARP believes this bill is another important step to help lower drug prices and Carter promised to work aggressively for passage. > > “This bill represents another step in our efforts to rein in the high costs of prescription drugs,” said Carter. “Our members need relief from these out-of-control drug prices, and allowing them to buy drugs from Canada or other countries could help lower prices.” > > The bill, S. 2328, sponsored by Senators Byron Dorgan (D-ND) and Olympia Snowe (R-ME), together with 23 co-sponsors, will allow consumers and pharmacies to legally purchase safe prescription drugs, beginning with Canada. > > \ > > AARP Chief Executive Officer Bill Novelli said in a statement at a Capitol Hill press conference: “It is a national embarrassment that citizens must purchase from other countries to afford prescription drugs. It is no longer a question of whether we should allow the importation of drugs from abroad. Importation is already happening on a large scale; we must ensure that there is a system in place for guaranteeing safety and cost savings.” Why are drug prices so high here? Well, according to [this article](http://www.news-journalonline.com/NewsJournalOnline/Opinion/Editorials/03OpOP14070605.htm), “[t]he price hikes cannot be blamed on research and development, AARP political director John Rother said. The most likely culprits: huge direct-to-consumer marketing drives and flat-out greed.” ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2004, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-this-bother-you-as-much-as-it-does-me-john-edwards/254001/67 "2004-07-08T17:18:41Z")
[link](http://www.nj.com/news/ledger/index.ssf?/base/news-15/108676524655550.xml) > [@](#): > > The figure hit a high of more than $214 million in 2001. It declined to about $199 million in 2002 and dropped further – to $162.5 million – in 2003. The total payout declined even as doctors saw steep increases in their malpractice premiums. > > “I’ve said all along that rising premiums had little to do with big payouts and more to do with insurance industry practices and the economy,” said Sen. Joseph Vitale (D- Woodbridge). > > Uncovering exactly what the state’s insurers were paying on behalf of New Jersey physicians would have been crucial to the recent medical malpractice debate that raged in Trenton, several legislators said. Lawmakers said they could examine only jury awards but not confidential settlements. Doctors have been fighting unsuccessfully to limit what juries can award plaintiffs. > > \ > > The Record of Hackensack sued to make the malpractice information public and on Monday U.S. District Judge William G. Bassler agreed. He said the data could help consumers make health care decisions. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2004, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-this-bother-you-as-much-as-it-does-me-john-edwards/254001/68 "2004-07-08T17:53:37Z")
We now know what New Jersey’s malpractice payouts (as opposed to jury awards, which are frequently reduced by a judge) were in 2001 through 2003. We also know a few other things. New Jersey had [2.97% of the US population in 2003](http://eire.census.gov/popest/data/states/tables/NST-EST2003-01.php). (8.64M/290.81M.) The [US GDP](http://www.whitehouse.gov/omb/budget/fy2005/pdf/hist.pdf) was 10.04T, 10.37T, and 10.83T in 2001, 2002, and 2003, respectively. [Health care ate up 14.4% of the GDP in 2001](http://www.cms.hhs.gov/publications/overview-medicare-medicaid/default2.asp), or about $1.4T. Let’s go with the 2001 figures, since we’ve got all the numbers there - and they’ll stand up to any criticism that NJ’s decline in malpractice payouts since then is a fluke of some sort. (NJ malpractice payouts)/(NJ share of pop) = (ballpark est. of US malpractice payouts): $214M/.0297 ~ $7.2B in 2001. Malpractice payouts’ estimated percentage share of $1.4T in health care expenditures: **one-half of one percent.** Brings the whole system to a halt, huh? Mind you, this **is** a genuine back-of-the-envelope bit of estimation. So I’m not going to stand up here and say authoritatively that malpractice payouts make up only 0.5% of US healthcare expenditures. OTOH, there’s no reason to think that NJ is unrepresentatively lower than average in its payouts. Some states (like Bush’s Texas) have instituted tort ‘reform’, limiting payouts in various ways; NJ isn’t one of them yet. But what it says to me is that before I’m going to believe anything about a crisis, those claiming we’ve got one have to prove to me that it’s a good deal worse than that. ---
**Author:** ![Reeder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Reeder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Reeder)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2004, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-this-bother-you-as-much-as-it-does-me-john-edwards/254001/69 "2004-07-08T18:22:22Z")
I don’t understand bashing lawyers. They don’t award the money, juries do. Shouldn’t they be bashing juries? ---
**Author:** ![GaWd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/f08c70/32.png) [@GaWd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GaWd)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2004, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-this-bother-you-as-much-as-it-does-me-john-edwards/254001/70 "2004-07-08T18:30:26Z")
> [@Reeder](#): > > I don’t understand bashing lawyers. They don’t award the money, juries do. Shouldn’t they be bashing juries? But Reeder, how can we blame them when Edwards, acting on behalf of the parents of a CP-affected child, misled jurors into thinking he was “communicating” with the child through the fetal heart monitor printout. They were flim-flammed, bamboozled, he tugged on their heartstrings! Puh-leaze. Sam ---
**Author:** ![Lamar\_Mundane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/85f322/32.png) [@Lamar\_Mundane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamar_Mundane)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2004, 12:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-this-bother-you-as-much-as-it-does-me-john-edwards/254001/71 "2004-07-09T00:28:05Z")
> [@spooje](#): > > **Lamar** , you have still not answered my question. > > If your child was damaged by a botched medical procedure and faced a lifetime of expensive care as a result, what would you do? I’ll answer this and then I’m letting it go. If the damage was due to negligence and was preventable, I’d pursue a fair settlement and take it to trial if necessary. Surprised? You shouldn’t be. I’m not stupid. When you google “cerebral palsy lawyers” and get 45,800 hits, that seems to indicate to me that something else is going on out there. I’m sure the breast-implant lawyers are just fighting the good fight, too. ---
**Author:** ![cmason32](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/51bf81/32.png) [@cmason32](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmason32)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2004, 12:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-this-bother-you-as-much-as-it-does-me-john-edwards/254001/72 "2004-07-09T00:54:44Z")
> [@Lamar Mundane](#): > > When you google “cerebral palsy lawyers” and get 45,800 hits, that seems to indicate to me that something else is going on out there. I’m sure the breast-implant lawyers are just fighting the good fight, too. When you google “microsoft lawyers” you get 884,000 hits. It seems that they have a lot of lawyers. ---
**Author:** ![Spavined\_Gelding](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/958977/32.png) [@Spavined\_Gelding](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spavined_Gelding)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2004, 1:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-this-bother-you-as-much-as-it-does-me-john-edwards/254001/73 "2004-07-09T01:26:06Z")
Some one is going to have to explain to me how the number of hits generated by a Google search demonstrates either that claims of medical negligence causing infantile cerebral palsy are not legitimate claims or that the medical negligence cases that Senator Edwards prosecuted were not legitimate claims. Someone is also going to have to point out to me where Senator Edwards clients rejected some fair settlement offer in favor of bamboozling jurors (who being ordinary people much like you and me are just raw meat for the scheming and unscrupulous trial lawyer, putty in their very hands) in hopes of hitting an undeserved jackpot. Let me add this to what others have said about the expense of prosecuting a plaintiff’s personal injury case, a favored technique of the defense bar is to make a potentially large case as expensive as possible with elaborate discovery, seemingly interminable depositions, repeated motions. All too often a plaintiff is driven into accepting an inadequate settlement because the expense of going forward with the case in too much for them to bear. My position is that cases go to trial as often because defendants (meaning insurers) refuse to accept a reasonable demand and lock up on low ball figure as not. My experence is that there is no significant difference between the fees paid in a contingency case and the fees recovered in a conventional time and expenses case. In the face of that many people elect to go with a contingency arrangement because of the prospect of having the lawyer share the hisk of littigation is attractive. It is worth noting that while insurers have put some restraints on defense council in the last ten or twenty years the more time a defense lawyer puts into a case the more he gets paid. There might be some impitus for defense counsel try the daylight out of every case. The whole contingent fee thing has been a controversial matter for years. The simple fact is that the economics of the situation often mean that the only way a person with a legitimate claim can afford to press their claim is under a contingency fee arrangement. To protest that the lawyer gets too much, since verdicts are based on the extent of injury not on the extent of injury plus expenses in maintaining the lawsuit, is a matter for the client to bitch about, not the defendant. Whether the plaintiff’s lawyer works for an hourly fee, on a contingency or for fee makes no difference in determining the amount of damages. Punitive (a.k.a. exemplary) damages, that bug-a-boo of the uninformed, are rare as hen’s teeth. Negligence or fault are the basis for recovery of economic compensatory damages. Almost universally punitive damages must be supported by a showing that the defendant was wanton and reckless, guilty of gross negligence or acted from malice. Thus, were **Lamar** to run a stop sign an T-bone me my chances of recovering punitive damages from him are pretty much nil. Were he drunk and a blood examination showed that my chances would be increased… Had he said to the bartender just before he got in his car “That Spavined Gelding better stay out of my way,” then my chances of recovering punitive damages in excess of compensatory damages are significantly increased. In medical malpractice cases it is the rare physician indeed to shows up drunk or expresses animosity toward his patient as he hones his scalpel. It is, as someone once said, the difference between being tripped over and being kicked. Even a dog can tell the difference. ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2004, 2:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-this-bother-you-as-much-as-it-does-me-john-edwards/254001/74 "2004-07-09T02:32:09Z")
> [@Lamar Mundane](#): > > I’ll answer this and then I’m letting it go. If the damage was due to negligence and was preventable, I’d pursue a fair settlement and take it to trial if necessary. > Surprised? You shouldn’t be. I’m not stupid. > > When you google “cerebral palsy lawyers” and get 45,800 hits, that seems to indicate to me that something else is going on out there. I’m sure the breast-implant lawyers are just fighting the good fight, too. D’ya ever think that it’s because it’s such a big problem? No? BTW, while you are pursuing your fair settlement, how much cooperation do you think the doctor’s laywers are gonna give you? \*Especially \* if you don’t have a really good lawyer working for you? ---
**Author:** ![Gorsnak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gorsnak/32/7587_2.png) [@Gorsnak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gorsnak)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2004, 3:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-this-bother-you-as-much-as-it-does-me-john-edwards/254001/75 "2004-07-09T03:11:03Z")
> [@Dewey Cheatem Undhow](#): > > _Ahem._ > > I’m sure you meant to say that corporate law is a dynamic area of practice that is vital to Our Capitalist Way of Life, requiring creative thinking and the ability to find unique solutions to conflicting business visions. Truly, a practice area attractive to the best and brightest of the legal profession. > > I will, however, grant you that SEC compliance is a bunch of boring crap. > > At least my line of work doesn’t carry the risk of being squirted with a water pistol. (Note to SDMB’ers: inside joke at work) Heh. I was waiting for that. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![minty\_green](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f6c823/32.png) [@minty\_green](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/minty_green)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2004, 3:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-this-bother-you-as-much-as-it-does-me-john-edwards/254001/76 "2004-07-09T03:44:11Z")
The water pistol? Not as fun as you might think. ---
**Author:** ![minty\_green](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f6c823/32.png) [@minty\_green](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/minty_green)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2004, 3:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-this-bother-you-as-much-as-it-does-me-john-edwards/254001/77 "2004-07-09T03:49:15Z")
The water pistol? Not as fun as you might think. ---
**Author:** ![pepperlandgirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/f17d59/32.png) [@pepperlandgirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pepperlandgirl)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2004, 3:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-this-bother-you-as-much-as-it-does-me-john-edwards/254001/78 "2004-07-09T03:57:25Z")
> [@Lamar Mundane](#): > > I’ll answer this and then I’m letting it go. If the damage was due to negligence and was preventable, I’d pursue a fair settlement and take it to trial if necessary. > Surprised? You shouldn’t be. I’m not stupid. > > When you google “cerebral palsy lawyers” and get 45,800 hits, that seems to indicate to me that something else is going on out there. I’m sure the breast-implant lawyers are just fighting the good fight, too. So are the cites I dug up that stated there was a known problem, that stated what the criteria was for diagnosing the problem, and that stated how many people are affected per year worthless because I went to Ebscohost instead of Google? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2004, 4:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-this-bother-you-as-much-as-it-does-me-john-edwards/254001/79 "2004-07-09T04:25:58Z")
Well, this is the gathering to ask, I suppose. These “trial lawyers”? Are they required to wear some kind of identifying marker if they hang out with real lawyers? Are their features more ferretlike, or rodential? That stuff about filing their teeth into points, thats urban myth, right? When you guys tell lawyer jokes, is it “trial lawyer jokes?”. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2004, 5:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-this-bother-you-as-much-as-it-does-me-john-edwards/254001/80 "2004-07-09T05:48:08Z")
Just for the record, Abraham Lincoln was a trial lawyer too and he muddles along as president. He wasn’t even particularly evil. It’s not like Edwards is an oil scion or anything really perverted like that. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-this-bother-you-as-much-as-it-does-me-john-edwards/254001.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-this-bother-you-as-much-as-it-does-me-john-edwards/254001.md?page=5)