# Does this change anyone's mind? Posner: we were wrong to allow Indiana's voter ID law **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 12, 2013, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-this-change-anyones-mind-posner-we-were-wrong-to-allow-indianas-voter-id-law/671080 "2013-10-12T17:49:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2013, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-this-change-anyones-mind-posner-we-were-wrong-to-allow-indianas-voter-id-law/671080/21 "2013-10-14T19:59:23Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > I assume by “libellous attacks” you mean felony convictions. > > Regards, > Shodan No, I meant libelous attacks. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2013, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-this-change-anyones-mind-posner-we-were-wrong-to-allow-indianas-voter-id-law/671080/22 "2013-10-14T20:20:55Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > No. Who cares what Posner thinks? The Seventh Circuit decision was appealed regardless; the Supreme Court decided the issue. And Posner’s decision was a matter of law, which the Court reviews _de novo_ anyway. > > In other words, Posner’s decision did not sway the ultimate result. True dat, the Crawford decision was of such minor import, hardly anyone ever mentioned more than a couple dozen times… ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2013, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-this-change-anyones-mind-posner-we-were-wrong-to-allow-indianas-voter-id-law/671080/23 "2013-10-14T20:50:27Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Doesn’t have to be. Nothing inherent in it makes it loathsome, simply the purposes to which it is put. Noone would have thought to pass such a law but for the loathesome purpose. Noone rational at least. > [@CannyDan](#): > > You, I, and some others have said this from the beginning. It doesn’t surprise me that the proponents of these laws make no effort toward that outreach effort, as it would not serve their partisan purpose. It does though somewhat surprise, and sadden, me that such an effort has not been forthcoming from “our side” (such as it may be). “We” seem to have instead gone with the righteous indignation approach, apparently hoping that those people [del]disenfranchised[/del] inconvenienced out of voting will just get pissed enough to overcome the barriers. Frankly I’m not too sanguine with this. Seems to me a real outreach would be the Progressives’ best ever registration-and-Get-Out-The-Vote scenario. The backlash from to the voter ID laws in 2012 was in part the result of a get out the vote effort. ---
**Author:** ![Oakminster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/77aa72/32.png) [@Oakminster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oakminster)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2013, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-this-change-anyones-mind-posner-we-were-wrong-to-allow-indianas-voter-id-law/671080/24 "2013-10-14T21:02:43Z")
> [@Evil\_Captor](#): > > Der Trihs is simply stating a fact here, you might as well be rolling your eyes at him for saying that grass is green. Then I’m sure you will quickly provide a cite to support that factual assertion, right? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2013, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-this-change-anyones-mind-posner-we-were-wrong-to-allow-indianas-voter-id-law/671080/25 "2013-10-14T21:10:49Z")
About the same time you offer your factual citation for your “rolleyes”. Cooking tip: you can substitute “goose sauce” for “gander sauce” in your recipes, as they are fundamentally identical. ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2013, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-this-change-anyones-mind-posner-we-were-wrong-to-allow-indianas-voter-id-law/671080/26 "2013-10-14T21:25:14Z")
> [@Oakminster](#): > > Then I’m sure you will quickly provide a cite to support that factual assertion, right? Well, next to the fact that a Bush administration investigation turned up _nothing_, and the fact that when you break down the actual voter fraud cases that showed up, the vast majority have to do with either mistaken citizens or absentee ballots, and the fact that the amount of voter fraud detected would have to be off by several orders of magnitude to measure up to the number of American voters who don’t have voter ID… There’s always the words [straight from the horse’s incredibly dumb mouth](http://talkingpointsmemo.com/muckraker/pennsylvania-gop-leader-voter-id-will-help-romney-win-state). Citation: [Have fun](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=655025). We’ve been over all this shit before. You want to go through it again? Knock yourself out. ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2013, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-this-change-anyones-mind-posner-we-were-wrong-to-allow-indianas-voter-id-law/671080/27 "2013-10-14T21:31:06Z")
> [@Oakminster](#): > > Then I’m sure you will quickly provide a cite to support that factual assertion, right? It depends what “malign purpose” means. To me, it means using “security” to alter the outcome of an election by making it difficult for the “wrong” voters to have their legal vote counted. If you’d like a cite for that, I’d be happy to provide one. ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2013, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-this-change-anyones-mind-posner-we-were-wrong-to-allow-indianas-voter-id-law/671080/28 "2013-10-14T21:59:36Z")
> [@Algher](#): > > The discovery of how many people lack any type of formal ID should be a wake-up call to many, especially on the progressive side. These people not only are being impacted on voting - but many other functions that impact living in a modern society. > > The complete lack of “WHAT? That many people don’t have a bank account, a driver’s license, etc.?” reaction along with a plan to rectify is sad. > > I agree - the Democratic party could OWN a lot of votes by making it easy for these people. I agree with this wholeheartedly. It sort of analogous to the reason some give for a school hot lunch program: “For some kids, this is their only meal of the day.” That’s good as far as that goes, but a person admits that there are a significant number of kids who aren’t fed at home and the solution is one crappy school lunch? I am also shocked at the number of people without picture ID. So if the voter ID laws are defeated, these people are still screwed in society—hardly a day goes by where I don’t need to produce ID for something. I can’t imagine living in 2013 without one. These people are simply shut out of the system; defeating a voter ID law is a band aid placed on a cut jugular vein. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2013, 4:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-this-change-anyones-mind-posner-we-were-wrong-to-allow-indianas-voter-id-law/671080/29 "2013-10-15T04:30:26Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > No. Who cares what Posner thinks? The Seventh Circuit decision was appealed regardless; the Supreme Court decided the issue. And Posner’s decision was a matter of law, which the Court reviews _de novo_ anyway. > > In other words, Posner’s decision did not sway the ultimate result. I’d like to see how closely the SCOTUS opinion tracks Posner’s opinion before I dismiss Posner as irrelevant. Posner is probably one of the most influential jurists alive today, I wonder if the SCOTUS opinion might have been different if Posner had gone the other way. > [@jtgain](#): > > I agree with this wholeheartedly. It sort of analogous to the reason some give for a school hot lunch program: “For some kids, this is their only meal of the day.” > > That’s good as far as that goes, but a person admits that there are a significant number of kids who aren’t fed at home and the solution is one crappy school lunch? > > I am also shocked at the number of people without picture ID. So if the voter ID laws are defeated, these people are still screwed in society—hardly a day goes by where I don’t need to produce ID for something. I can’t imagine living in 2013 without one. These people are simply shut out of the system; defeating a voter ID law is a band aid placed on a cut jugular vein. I haven’t shown my driver’s license on a daily basis after I got old enough that noone bothered to ask me for ID at bars and restaurants. Other than airports, I don’t really need to present my ID very frequently. Do you get pulled over a lot or something? ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2013, 5:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-this-change-anyones-mind-posner-we-were-wrong-to-allow-indianas-voter-id-law/671080/30 "2013-10-15T05:24:22Z")
> [@jtgain](#): > > I agree with this wholeheartedly. It sort of analogous to the reason some give for a school hot lunch program: “For some kids, this is their only meal of the day.” > > That’s good as far as that goes, but a person admits that there are a significant number of kids who aren’t fed at home and the solution is one crappy school lunch? I doubt most people arguing for school lunches would turn down more money to help more people, nor would they claim school lunches fix things. But unless they can get adequate funding for other things, helping a little is better than not helping at all. The perfect is not the enemy of the good. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2013, 10:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-this-change-anyones-mind-posner-we-were-wrong-to-allow-indianas-voter-id-law/671080/31 "2013-10-15T10:42:23Z")
> [@jtgain](#): > > I am also shocked at the number of people without picture ID. So if the voter ID laws are defeated, these people are still screwed in society—hardly a day goes by where I don’t need to produce ID for something. I can’t imagine living in 2013 without one. These people are simply shut out of the system; defeating a voter ID law is a band aid placed on a cut jugular vein. if they were so necessary for everyday life, people would have them. They aren’t though. I use a state issued photo ID rarely. I use a non state issued ID to access public transit. I don’t need any photo ID for anything else. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2013, 12:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-this-change-anyones-mind-posner-we-were-wrong-to-allow-indianas-voter-id-law/671080/32 "2013-10-15T12:44:07Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > No. Who cares what Posner thinks? The Seventh Circuit decision was appealed regardless; the Supreme Court decided the issue. And Posner’s decision was a matter of law, which the Court reviews _de novo_ anyway. > > In other words, Posner’s decision did not sway the ultimate result. > [@elucidator](#): > > True dat, the Crawford decision was of such minor import, hardly anyone ever mentioned more than a couple dozen times… I don’t believe I have ever noticed Posner’s _Crawford_ decision mentioned here! at least before this thread. Can you point to one or two of these couple of dozen times? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2013, 12:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-this-change-anyones-mind-posner-we-were-wrong-to-allow-indianas-voter-id-law/671080/33 "2013-10-15T12:49:58Z")
> [@IceQube](#): > > Makes sense. Straight from the horse’s mouth. Who cares what Roberts thinks about the ACA either? He’s just a RINO. Well, I certainly care what Roberts thinks: he was the author of the deciding opinion on the ACA. Posner was the author of an opinion which means little once the Supreme Court took the case. If the Court had stayed out of it, sure, we’d be hotly debating how influential the Seventh Circuit should be in the rest of the country, and Posner’s decision might be of great importance. But as history actually happened, Posner’s opinion is no strong precedent. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2013, 12:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-this-change-anyones-mind-posner-we-were-wrong-to-allow-indianas-voter-id-law/671080/34 "2013-10-15T12:59:14Z")
Well _of course_ Posner’s opinion is not legally relevant. Even if it had been Kennedy who came out and changed his mind it wouldn’t be relevant legally. The question is whether you’re swayed by a smart conservative jurist who was deeply involved in this case changing his mind on it. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2013, 1:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-this-change-anyones-mind-posner-we-were-wrong-to-allow-indianas-voter-id-law/671080/35 "2013-10-15T13:45:23Z")
This is the sort of naive analysis for which Posner is (perhaps rightfully, to some extent) famous. “People are rational actors and nothing bad will ever happen if we allow the market/highway/school district/election to police itself.” If there’s a “oh shit” moment here, it should be (for a majority of Americans) the discovery that strict scrutiny does not attach to voting rights. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2013, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-this-change-anyones-mind-posner-we-were-wrong-to-allow-indianas-voter-id-law/671080/36 "2013-10-15T15:18:41Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I don’t believe I have ever noticed Posner’s _Crawford_ decision mentioned here! at least before this thread. > > Can you point to one or two of these couple of dozen times? Oh, goody! A homework assignment from **Bricker**! Yay! Is there a way to actually do that? I know there are methods for looking stuff up on the SDMB by way of Google, but can I actually craft a query on Google that will ferret out posts by Bricker which specifically mention _Crawford_? And do it in such a way that there is confidence that if nothing returns, he never said it? I do clearly recall a court decision that he tossed around quite a bit, perhaps that isn’t the same one. Of course, he might very well know what that is, but has neglected to mention it while offering me the goose chase. Anybody got the Google-fu for this? Sure would like to know, be handy as heck. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2013, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-this-change-anyones-mind-posner-we-were-wrong-to-allow-indianas-voter-id-law/671080/37 "2013-10-15T15:27:09Z")
I don’t think **Bricker** was specifying examples of **Bricker** tossing it out a couple of dozen times. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2013, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-this-change-anyones-mind-posner-we-were-wrong-to-allow-indianas-voter-id-law/671080/38 "2013-10-15T15:30:28Z")
Still want to know how, even if it proves me wrong. Just that kind of guy. ---
**Author:** ![Rhythmdvl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/85f322/32.png) [@Rhythmdvl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rhythmdvl)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2013, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-this-change-anyones-mind-posner-we-were-wrong-to-allow-indianas-voter-id-law/671080/39 "2013-10-15T16:15:46Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I don’t believe I have ever noticed Posner’s _Crawford_ decision mentioned here! at least before this thread. > > Can you point to one or two of these couple of dozen times? Sorry, not following too closely. Was this sarcasm/ a whoosh? > [@Pennsylvania Upholds Voter ID Law](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pennsylvania-upholds-voter-id-law/631582/2): > > > [@Pennsylvania Upholds Voter ID Law](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pennsylvania-upholds-voter-id-law/631582/2): > > > > It will be upheld on appeal, because it’s consistent with the US Supreme Court’s ruling in Crawford v. Marion County. > > > [@What effect did voter-ID laws have in the 2012 election?](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-effect-did-voter-id-laws-have-in-the-2012-election/664243/18): > > > > I care. That’s why I favor Voter ID. As the Supreme Court ruled in _Crawford v. Marion County_, that a very legal law. > > > [@How do voter ID laws suppress minority votes?](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-voter-id-laws-suppress-minority-votes/665968/208): > > > > I’m quoting, verbatim, Crawford. If it was a whoosh or there is some subtle distinction between not noticing _Posner’s_ Crawford decision and the SCOTUS decision, have at it. If I’d told any of my law professors that discussing or quoting a SCOTUS opinion meant we never noticed or were aware of the lower court’s ruling I’d expect to have been laughed at. YMMV. As to the OP, since the primary rationale for the laws is effecting voter suppression, any hiccups in the veneer don’t count. What counts is the result, not the analysis or the process, so Posner’s internal reversal is easily ignored. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2013, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-this-change-anyones-mind-posner-we-were-wrong-to-allow-indianas-voter-id-law/671080/40 "2013-10-15T16:22:40Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Oh, goody! A homework assignment from **Bricker**! Yay! > > Is there a way to actually do that? I know there are methods for looking stuff up on the SDMB by way of Google, but can I actually craft a query on Google that will ferret out posts by Bricker which specifically mention _Crawford_? > > And do it in such a way that there is confidence that if nothing returns, he never said it? > > I do clearly recall a court decision that he tossed around quite a bit, perhaps that isn’t the same one. Of course, he might very well know what that is, but has neglected to mention it while offering me the goose chase. > > Anybody got the Google-fu for this? Sure would like to know, be handy as heck. Elucidator, what is your major malfunction? The SDMB message board can easily manage that. You just search for keyword “Crawford” and User Name “Bricker” and set the date for Any Time. Result: [56 hits.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/search.php?searchid=10296298) I should have thought you’d know how to do a simple search like that. Oh, wait, you just got me to do the work for you … bastard! Well, you can read the posts yourself then. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-this-change-anyones-mind-posner-we-were-wrong-to-allow-indianas-voter-id-law/671080.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-this-change-anyones-mind-posner-we-were-wrong-to-allow-indianas-voter-id-law/671080.md?page=3)