# Does this disprove diffusion? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [October 21, 2013, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-this-disprove-diffusion/671855 "2013-10-21T19:59:09Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 12\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![TashaKitty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/d26b3c/32.png) [@TashaKitty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TashaKitty)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2013, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-this-disprove-diffusion/671855/1 "2013-10-21T19:59:09Z")
Diffusion states that a solute moves from an area of high concentration to an area of low concentration until the solute is evenly distributed through the solution. So when I make hot tea and the sugar melts, why does the majority of sweetness stay at the bottom instead of diffusing evenly through my tea? I know for a fact that the sugar is completely melted because when I finally empty my mug there is no grit at the bottom. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2013, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-this-disprove-diffusion/671855/2 "2013-10-21T20:03:16Z")
I don’t have the chemistry chops to tell you why, but I’m going to go out on a limb and say, _“No, it doesn’t disprove diffusion.”_ ---
**Author:** ![beowulff](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/beowulff/32/542_2.png) [@beowulff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/beowulff)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2013, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-this-disprove-diffusion/671855/3 "2013-10-21T20:08:24Z")
Just give it enough time. Maybe centuries. Diffusion is a slow process, and it’s going to take even longer when you expect to evenly diffuse a relatively heavy molecule in water. That’s why people _stir_… ---
**Author:** ![Grey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b782af/32.png) [@Grey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grey)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2013, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-this-disprove-diffusion/671855/4 "2013-10-21T20:15:01Z")
Is there a sweetness profile through the cross section of the tea? Is it changing through time? Does it accelerate when strong convection currents exist? if so then there is diffusion going on. ---
**Author:** ![newme](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/e0b2c6/32.png) [@newme](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/newme)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2013, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-this-disprove-diffusion/671855/5 "2013-10-21T21:03:18Z")
Diffusion in a liquid is much slower than you may think. If you have a cup of coffee 8 cm deep and all the sugar is at the bottom, how long will it take for it to diffuse to the top? The formula for Diffusion is **t=x[sup]2[/sup]/2D** where t = time x = distance D = Diffusion Coefficient The Diffusion Coefficient for sucrose is .46 x 10[sup]-5[/sup]cm[sup]2[/sup]/s [(PDF link here)](http://www.cchem.berkeley.edu/chem130a/past/2003Fall/g03hw/hw9.pdf), so to move 8 cm it takes: t = (8 cm)[sup]2[/sup]/(2\*.46 x 10[sup]-5[/sup]cm[sup]2[/sup]/s) t = 1 739 130 s t = 20 days Most of the mixing of the sugar comes from the stirring with a spoon and the sloshing as you take a drink. ---
**Author:** ![IvoryTowerDenizen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ivorytowerdenizen/32/17937_2.png) [@IvoryTowerDenizen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IvoryTowerDenizen)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2013, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-this-disprove-diffusion/671855/6 "2013-10-21T21:16:17Z")
> [@newme](#): > > Diffusion in a liquid is much slower than you may think. If you have a cup of coffee 8 cm deep and all the sugar is at the bottom, how long will it take for it to diffuse to the top? > > The formula for Diffusion is **t=x[sup]2[/sup]/2D** where > > t = time > x = distance > D = Diffusion Coefficient > > The Diffusion Coefficient for sucrose is .46 x 10[sup]-5[/sup]cm[sup]2[/sup]/s [(PDF link here)](http://www.cchem.berkeley.edu/chem130a/past/2003Fall/g03hw/hw9.pdf), so to move 8 cm it takes: > > t = (8 cm)[sup]2[/sup]/(2\*.46 x 10[sup]-5[/sup]cm[sup]2[/sup]/s) > t = 1 739 130 s > t = 20 days > > Most of the mixing of the sugar comes from the stirring with a spoon and the sloshing as you take a drink. Nice. Where does temp of the liquid factor in? ---
**Author:** ![Enginerd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/bcef8e/32.png) [@Enginerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enginerd)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2013, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-this-disprove-diffusion/671855/7 "2013-10-21T21:32:42Z")
It doesn’t make that big a difference in this setting - the diffusion coefficient is slightly temperature dependent, but the liquid will cool to ambient much faster than any effects of the high temperature will be seen. Temperature _does_ control convection, though. If the surface cools faster than the liquid below it, for example, the increase in density on the surface will cause the warmer water below it to rise, displacing the cooler water and mixing the mug. Convective mixing distributes the dissolved sugar by moving the liquid that contains the molecules rather than the molecules themselves, and is usually a much faster and stronger process than diffusion. ETA: The other thing the temperature controls is the rate of dissolution. If you’re dumping sugar and letting it dissolve slowly, that will happen faster in a hot mug than a cooler one. But again, that’s a faster process than diffusion is. ---
**Author:** ![IvoryTowerDenizen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ivorytowerdenizen/32/17937_2.png) [@IvoryTowerDenizen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IvoryTowerDenizen)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2013, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-this-disprove-diffusion/671855/8 "2013-10-21T22:04:53Z")
> [@Enginerd](#): > > It doesn’t make that big a difference in this setting - the diffusion coefficient is slightly temperature dependent, but the liquid will cool to ambient much faster than any effects of the high temperature will be seen. > > Temperature _does_ control convection, though. If the surface cools faster than the liquid below it, for example, the increase in density on the surface will cause the warmer water below it to rise, displacing the cooler water and mixing the mug. Convective mixing distributes the dissolved sugar by moving the liquid that contains the molecules rather than the molecules themselves, and is usually a much faster and stronger process than diffusion. > ETA: The other thing the temperature controls is the rate of dissolution. If you’re dumping sugar and letting it dissolve slowly, that will happen faster in a hot mug than a cooler one. But again, that’s a faster process than diffusion is. Thanks for explaining. Very helpful! ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2013, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-this-disprove-diffusion/671855/9 "2013-10-21T22:57:05Z")
Why would anyone want to disprove diffusion like it was a subject of conversation? ---
**Author:** ![Smeghead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f1d935/32.png) [@Smeghead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smeghead)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2013, 11:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-this-disprove-diffusion/671855/10 "2013-10-21T23:25:16Z")
It’s important to establish the principle of Intelligent Sugar. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2013, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-this-disprove-diffusion/671855/11 "2013-10-21T23:33:11Z")
I may be mixing up (heh) two different notions, but don’t weight and gravity produce a separating effect, partially countering diffusion? I thought that was one of Einstein’s biggies, where he figured out the actual energy (?) of Brownian Motion, by watching the two forces in competition. Heavier molecules want to sink to the bottom, but Brownian Motion stirs 'em up (and upwards) again. Is this something that applies to objects suspended in water (like, say, pollen grains) but diffusion applies to chemicals actually dissolved in water, in which case I’m wrong and never mind? ---
**Author:** ![Yllaria](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yllaria/32/3452_2.png) [@Yllaria](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yllaria)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2013, 1:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-this-disprove-diffusion/671855/12 "2013-10-22T01:16:11Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#): > > Why would anyone want to disprove diffusion like it was a subject of conversation? Why wouldn’t someone be curious if they noticed something that seemed to disprove diffusion, and where else would they go to talk about it?