# Does this prove God? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 19, 2006, 1:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-this-prove-god/377031 "2006-10-19T01:59:05Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![ted\_baskerville\_yahoo.com](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ecd19e/32.png) [@ted\_baskerville\_yahoo.com](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ted_baskerville_yahoo.com)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2006, 1:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-this-prove-god/377031/1 "2006-10-19T01:59:05Z")
Why or why not. > [@](#): > > Matter requires space in order to exist. > > If there were no space, there would be nothing: not an abyss, not a black hole, nothing. > > The existence of space required the creation of something to fill it. > > Otherwise space would have no purpose. > > Matter was created to occupy space. > > Space was created first as a container for matter. > > Space is a thing that exists. > > The hurdle for most is the concept of ‘space’ as a thing and ‘nothing’ as the lack of space and therefore matter. > > Forgive me for thinking, instead of joining in circular arguments which rely on written word, personal feelings, and belief. > > However, as an aside: in reading the Biblical story of creation, you will see that in the begining there was nothing, no space, no matter. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2006, 2:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-this-prove-god/377031/2 "2006-10-19T02:05:25Z")
[QUOTE=ted\_baskerville@yahoo.com] The existence of space required the creation of something to fill it. Otherwise space would have no purpose. [/QUOTE] Why would you presume space requires a purpose to exist? ---
**Author:** ![Cervaise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cervaise/32/16693_2.png) [@Cervaise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cervaise)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2006, 2:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-this-prove-god/377031/3 "2006-10-19T02:19:44Z")
[QUOTE=Fear Itself] Why would you presume space requires a purpose to exist? [/QUOTE] Forgive him for thinking. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2006, 2:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-this-prove-god/377031/4 "2006-10-19T02:22:21Z")
That’d be a big negatory, good buddy. This is a very shoddy argument all around. It really doesn’t prove anything at all. > [@](#): > > Matter requires space in order to exist. Says who? > [@](#): > > If there were no space, there would be nothing: not an abyss, not a black hole, nothing. What’s the difference between “space,” an “abyss,” and “nothing”? Incidentally, the inclusion of a black hole in that list shows that whoever wrote it knows very little about astronomy. A black hole isn’t a “void,” it’s a very old, very dead, very dense star. > [@](#): > > The existence of space required the creation of something to fill it. This rather directly contradicts the previous point. If space is not “nothing,” then it must be “something.” Therefore, it “fills” itself. > [@](#): > > Otherwise space would have no purpose. That’s a massive presupposition. The universe does not have a purpose. The universe just is. This argument uses its conclusion as one of its supporting premises. It’s like arguing, “God exists because God exists.” > [@](#): > > Matter was created to occupy space. > > Space was created first as a container for matter. Again, your argument presupposes the existence of a creator. An atheist would argue that matter and space exist for no fixed purpose and with no guiding will or intellect behind it. These two sentences are merely statements of a contrary belief, not _evidence_ for a contrary belief. > [@](#): > > Space is a thing that exists. …'kay. > [@](#): > > The hurdle for most is the concept of ‘space’ as a thing and ‘nothing’ as the lack of space and therefore matter. If space is a thing, what are its properties that differentiate it from “nothing?” And how is this evidence that is was created, as opposed to spontaneously coming into existence? > [@](#): > > Forgive me for thinking, instead of joining in circular arguments which rely on written word, personal feelings, and belief. The ad hominem doesn’t really help your case. > [@](#): > > However, as an aside: in reading the Biblical story of creation, you will see that in the begining there was nothing, no space, no matter. The Big Bang theory says the same thing, more or less, and doesn’t require God as a motivating force. ---
**Author:** ![SCSimmons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e495f1/32.png) [@SCSimmons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SCSimmons)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2006, 2:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-this-prove-god/377031/5 "2006-10-19T02:23:14Z")
And what’s the evidence that space existed before matter? Perhaps they came into existence simultaneously, or perhaps they both always existed. And even if all of this were correct, I don’t see how it entails the existence of any kind of deity, much less the Yahweh character from the Bible … ---
**Author:** ![Apos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/838e76/32.png) [@Apos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apos)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2006, 2:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-this-prove-god/377031/6 "2006-10-19T02:25:04Z")
> [@](#): > > Matter requires space in order to exist. As with most of these sorts of arguments, its starting out with a premise that may not even make any sense. We can talk about matter and space in conventional terms. But what the heck does it mean that matter “needs” space in order to exist? What is “space” and how does matter require it? What does that even mean? How would we even KNOW that, given that we’ve never experienced anything other than matter in space. > [@](#): > > If there were no space, there would be nothing: not an abyss, not a black hole, nothing. Which means… what? How would we know what “no space” is like? > [@](#): > > The existence of space required the creation of something to fill it. Otherwise space would have no purpose. So, now we are mixing subjective concepts like purpose into concepts that are already vague and undefinable? And how did “creation” sneak in there again? > [@](#): > > Matter was created to occupy space. Wait, so how did “created” sneak in there again? How do we know any of this and what does it mean? > [@](#): > > Space was created first as a container for matter. How do you know that space and matter aren’t simply aspects of some larger phenomenon? > [@](#): > > Space is a thing that exists. Er, so does that mean that space is a type of matter? How does space “exist” exactly? > [@](#): > > The hurdle for most is the concept of ‘space’ as a thing and ‘nothing’ as the lack of space and therefore matter. > > Forgive me for thinking, instead of joining in circular arguments which rely on written word, personal feelings, and belief. > > However, as an aside: in reading the Biblical story of creation, you will see that in the begining there was nothing, no space, no matter. Wait… where is the conclusion to the argument? I thought it was going to prove God… so where is that conclusion? ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2006, 2:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-this-prove-god/377031/7 "2006-10-19T02:29:54Z")
[QUOTE=ted\_baskerville@yahoo.com] The existence of space required the creation of something to fill it. [/QUOTE] Why? A vacuum can be created without any need to fill it. What about a lack of matter means that it requires matter? > [@](#): > > Otherwise space would have no purpose. Why must space have a purpose? > [@](#): > > Matter was created to occupy space. > > Space was created first as a container for matter. A circular argument. Matter was made to occupy space, space was made to contain matter. Since they only rely on each other to exist, you could simply have neither and be fine. > [@](#): > > Space is a thing that exists. > > The hurdle for most is the concept of ‘space’ as a thing and ‘nothing’ as the lack of space and therefore matter. But previously you said that space was needed to contain matter. Why can’t we just have “nothing” to contain matter, and not space? There’d be more room, after all. > [@](#): > > However, as an aside: in reading the Biblical story of creation, you will see that in the begining there was nothing, no space, no matter. No, you’ll be able to interpret the Bible as saying that. And, of course, this assumes the Bible is correct. Oh, and even if your argument was utterly watertight - it would only suggest the existence of god or gods, not God. ---
**Author:** ![ted\_baskerville\_yahoo.com](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ecd19e/32.png) [@ted\_baskerville\_yahoo.com](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ted_baskerville_yahoo.com)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2006, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-this-prove-god/377031/8 "2006-10-19T02:50:52Z")
It would be illogical to think that space would have been created with no purpose. If you have space, something must have been planned, ergo, matter. Space is a thing. It exists. why? I conclude to hold matter. Whatever the reason, space was created. It is a thing. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2006, 2:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-this-prove-god/377031/9 "2006-10-19T02:53:26Z")
[QUOTE=ted\_baskerville@yahoo.com] It would be illogical to think that space would have been created with no purpose. [/QUOTE] No, you’re just insisting that space has to exist for a purpose that meets your standard of “logical.” And what created the thing that created space? ---
**Author:** ![overeasy4](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/b9bd4f/32.png) [@overeasy4](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/overeasy4)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2006, 2:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-this-prove-god/377031/10 "2006-10-19T02:55:02Z")
Space-the last frontier. ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2006, 2:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-this-prove-god/377031/11 "2006-10-19T02:58:55Z")
[QUOTE=ted\_baskerville@yahoo.com] It would be illogical to think that space would have been created with no purpose. [/quote] Why? Why is it logical to say there must have been some motivation to it’s existence? Why couldn’t it just be random, for example? > [@](#): > > If you have space, something must have been planned, ergo, matter. That doesn’t follow either. The existence of space, even if it were planned, does not then mean the existence of matter. Maybe it was created as a conversation piece. “Yeah, I created nothing from nothingness yesterday.” “Damn you and your metaphysical nonsense!” > [@](#): > > Space is a thing. It exists. why? > > I conclude to hold matter. I conclude in order to give giant space weasels something to chat about. What makes your theory more supported than mine? > [@](#): > > Whatever the reason, space was created. It is a thing. How do you know it was created? What makes you think it hasn’t always existed? And i’m afraid you can’t say “whatever the reason” when you’re trying to prove the existence of something with specific attributes and motivations such as God. The reason must be in accordance with that being’s acts; if the reason it was created was as a conversation point, that would actually tend to disprove God (assuming we could prove that, which we can’t, of course). ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2006, 3:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-this-prove-god/377031/12 "2006-10-19T03:06:35Z")
[QUOTE=ted\_baskerville@yahoo.com] It would be illogical to think that space would have been created with no purpose. [/quote] Can you demonstrate how this idea is illogical? What specific fallacy or fallacies does it contain? How is claiming that space has a purpose more logical than claiming it does not? How is your position more provable than the converse? > [@](#): > > If you have space, something must have been planned, ergo, matter. Why? Assuming that space does have a purpose, why does it follow that it must have been created to hold matter, and not some other purpose, of which matter is a useless byproduct? I mean, there’s so much empty space in the universe, it seems odd to make such a big area for the express purpose of holding so little matter. > [@](#): > > Space is a thing. It exists. why? How is space “a thing?” What properties does space have that makes it different from “no thing?” > [@](#): > > I conclude to hold matter. I may take this as my sig. > [@](#): > > Whatever the reason, space was created. It is a thing. That’s fine as a _belief_, but you were talking about _proof_. You haven’t proved anything yet, you’ve just stated your beliefs. You haven’t given any reason for us to think that your beliefs are any more correct than ours. ---
**Author:** ![Stalky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b782af/32.png) [@Stalky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stalky)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2006, 3:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-this-prove-god/377031/13 "2006-10-19T03:31:41Z")
Why would you be trying to prove or disprove (christian) God anyway. It seems a little masochistic. If he does exist I’m pretty sure he wants me, and probably you to burn in Hell. I’d forget about the whole thing… ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2006, 3:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-this-prove-god/377031/14 "2006-10-19T03:39:50Z")
So this is the weakest attempt at a God-proof that I’ve seen (using assumptions that things were “created” and “for a purpose” as “proof” that things were created for a purpose … c’mon!), but what I don’t understand is why anybody feels the need _to_ prove God. The crux (okay bad choice of words … “the center foundation”) of any God concept is _faith_. Faith is a belief held without proof. Faith is holding onto a belief even in the face of proof to the contrary. Believing in God even as one is burnt at the stake. Having faith in something that you have proof of is a poor faith indeed and won’t serve you well. If you have faith you need no proof. ---
**Author:** ![Terrifel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c68b51/32.png) [@Terrifel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terrifel)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2006, 3:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-this-prove-god/377031/15 "2006-10-19T03:42:31Z")
[QUOTE=Stalky] Why would you be trying to prove or disprove (christian) God anyway. It seems a little masochistic. If he does exist I’m pretty sure he wants me, and probably you to burn in Hell. I’d forget about the whole thing… [/QUOTE] This isn’t about Christian God, it’s about Space God. Space God doesn’t want you to burn in Hell! He wants you to burn in space. That’s why he created it. ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2006, 3:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-this-prove-god/377031/16 "2006-10-19T03:43:45Z")
Is god a “thing”? if he’s something, then he couldn’t have existed without space… if space were created, who/what ‘created’ it? And did it then, in turn, create ‘God’? The very statement: > [@](#): > > "Whatever the reason, space was created. It is a thing. " Is circular… the “was created” presupposes a creator, and according to your own argument, nothing could have existed without space… so, if space is ‘created’, where was the creator creating the space he created? It would be illogical to assume that space must have pourpose, or matter for that matter. ---
**Author:** ![susan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/susan/32/17537_2.png) [@susan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/susan)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2006, 3:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-this-prove-god/377031/17 "2006-10-19T03:57:51Z")
No. It loses me at “purpose,” which is an assumption. ---
**Author:** ![PBear42](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ecccb3/32.png) [@PBear42](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PBear42)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2006, 5:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-this-prove-god/377031/18 "2006-10-19T05:17:30Z")
**ted** , welcome to the SDMB. I would heartily recommend that you read Stephen Hawking’s _A Brief History of Time_. It will give you, I think, an interesting perspective on these issues. As for the OP, what my fellow Dopers are saying is that you’re loading assumptions into the argument which, while possibly true, aren’t self-evidently true. Hawking discusses these (and other) issues at some length, in a style that many people find both informative and entertaining. ---
**Author:** ![David\_Simmons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9de053/32.png) [@David\_Simmons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_Simmons)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2006, 5:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-this-prove-god/377031/19 "2006-10-19T05:18:38Z")
It isn’t beyond reason that someday someone will prove the existence, nor nonexistence, of God. However, lots and lots of very able logician have all failed so far. If the existence of God is ever proved then the need for faith goes out the window, it will be obvious what is the proper thing to do and we won’t need churches and preachers. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2006, 5:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-this-prove-god/377031/20 "2006-10-19T05:26:27Z")
[QUOTE=ted\_baskerville@yahoo.com] Matter requires space in order to exist. [/QUOTE] As I understand the latest theories, matter _is_ space. Space is merely an aspect of spacetime, and matter is merely a form of spacetime. [QUOTE=ted\_baskerville@yahoo.com] If there were no space, there would be nothing: not an abyss, not a black hole, nothing. [/QUOTE] There could still be time, and other aspects of existence that’s don’t require space. [QUOTE=ted\_baskerville@yahoo.com] Otherwise space would have no purpose. [/quote] Space has no purpose _now_ unless we give it one. It doesn’t _need_ a purpose. [QUOTE=ted\_baskerville@yahoo.com] The existence of space required the creation of something to fill it. [/QUOTE] Nope; the universe could have just been vacuum, or a point, a singularity. [QUOTE=ted\_baskerville@yahoo.com] Space was created first as a container for matter. [/quote] Since they are the same thing in different forms, they were created at the same time. [QUOTE=ted\_baskerville@yahoo.com] Space is a thing that exists. [/quote] Well, yes. True and trivial. [QUOTE=ted\_baskerville@yahoo.com] However, as an aside: in reading the Biblical story of creation, you will see that in the begining there was nothing, no space, no matter. [/quote] So ? The Bible is fiction. [QUOTE=ted\_baskerville@yahoo.com] It would be illogical to think that space would have been created with no purpose. If you have space, something must have been planned, ergo, matter. [/quote] As said, no. There’s no evidence of or need of planning. [QUOTE=ted\_baskerville@yahoo.com] Space is a thing. It exists. why? [/quote] Why not ? [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-this-prove-god/377031.md?page=2)