# Does this SCOTUS article seem a little biased to you? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [June 29, 2007, 2:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-this-scotus-article-seem-a-little-biased-to-you/409867 "2007-06-29T02:36:33Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2007, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-this-scotus-article-seem-a-little-biased-to-you/409867/41 "2007-06-29T19:09:56Z")
[QUOTE=John Mace] I lived thru those times, and it was ugly. Black parents as well as White parents complained against the more extreme examples. This also lead to considerable white flight, as white families moved out of the cities and into suburbs specifically to get away from busing. It forced people together, but it didn’t bring people together. [/quote] It brought them together more than the segregated schools did. I grew up in the aftermath; my wife grew up in the aftermath. We went to school and socialized with folks we almost certainly wouldn’t have gone to school with or socialized with pre-integration. I know the time during which it happened was ugly, but I think you’ll find yourself in a very small minority in claiming that they were uglier than the days of segregation, and I think you’ll find very few African American families who will agree with you. > [@](#): > > OK, so how many economic classes are there? First tell me how many races there are. > [@](#): > > This is a silly answer because you are forgetting the scope of _Brown_. That decision had implications well beyond schools, and influenced every aspect of racial laws. Now, it just so happened that racial laws stacked the deck against minorities. But there are laws that affect only rich people (like the inheritance tax) that could easily be jeopardized if rich people become a protected class. So limit it to equal access to education. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2007, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-this-scotus-article-seem-a-little-biased-to-you/409867/42 "2007-06-29T19:27:55Z")
As to the OP: If “an impartial view of the decision” is equivalent to “monumental leap forward in common sense and justice”, then the article is biased, no doubt. Big damn “if”. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2007, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-this-scotus-article-seem-a-little-biased-to-you/409867/43 "2007-06-29T19:36:24Z")
[QUOTE=Left Hand of Dorkness] It brought them together more than the segregated schools did. I grew up in the aftermath; my wife grew up in the aftermath. We went to school and socialized with folks we almost certainly wouldn’t have gone to school with or socialized with pre-integration. I know the time during which it happened was ugly, but I think you’ll find yourself in a very small minority in claiming that they were uglier than the days of segregation, and I think you’ll find very few African American families who will agree with you. [/quote] Define “days of segregation”. If you mean pre-Brown, yes. But busing wasn’t used to address legally enforced segregation, it was used to address the type of segregation that happens when people just tend to cluster together with others of the same race. > [@](#): > > First tell me how many races there are. Depends on the specific legislation we’re talking about. The EEO defines it as blacks, whites, persons of Latino or Asian origin or descent, and indigenous Americans (Eskimos, Native Hawaiians, Native Americans). I’m not sure if that would count as 5 or 7. > [@](#): > > So limit it to equal access to education. There is no clause in the constitution that is limited to education. Are you thinking of a new constitutional amendment? I thought you said it was time for a court case. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2007, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-this-scotus-article-seem-a-little-biased-to-you/409867/44 "2007-06-29T19:43:04Z")
[QUOTE=John Mace] CA moved from a local property tax system to a state-wide system of funding public schools based on a series of court cases. Interesting history-- read about it [here.](http://www.californiaschoolfinance.org/FinanceSystem/History/tabid/68/Default.aspx). [/QUOTE] Interesting, but it says nothing about whether that has made schools in poor districts better or worse. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2007, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-this-scotus-article-seem-a-little-biased-to-you/409867/45 "2007-06-29T19:44:09Z")
[QUOTE=John Mace] Define “days of segregation”. If you mean pre-Brown, yes. But busing wasn’t used to address legally enforced segregation, it was used to address the type of segregation that happens when people just tend to cluster together with others of the same race. [/quote] I’m well aware of that; it does not change what I said. > [@](#): > > Depends on the specific legislation we’re talking about. The EEO defines it as blacks, whites, persons of Latino or Asian origin or descent, and indigenous Americans (Eskimos, Native Hawaiians, Native Americans). I’m not sure if that would count as 5 or 7. Okay; there would be as many races as the EEO defined, then. The point is, this isn’t an insurmountable problem. > [@](#): > > There is no clause in the constitution that is limited to education. Are you thinking of a new constitutional amendment? I thought you said it was time for a court case. No, there’s a right to equal access to the privileges of citizenship. The “protected class” issues would not be about the estate tax, they would be about access to Medicaid and such; again, this is a “right to sleep under a bench” type of non-issue. You’re right that this couldn’t be limited to education, but it could be limited to access to government services, and as I think about it, my language of “class” is unnecessary (although it’d hardly be the insurmountable difficulty that you seem to think it’d be). We’re talking about situations in which children get a drastically worse education because schools in poor areas are worse-funded than schools in wealthy areas: by dint of birth, there’s unequal access to this government service. That seems like a fourteenth amendment issue to me. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2007, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-this-scotus-article-seem-a-little-biased-to-you/409867/46 "2007-06-29T19:52:22Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] Interesting, but it says nothing about whether that has made schools in poor districts better or worse. [/QUOTE] Right. The problem is there were several other important factors influencing school budgets, and so it’s impossible to isolate just the effect of those court cases. Prop 13 might have been the single biggest influencer and that tended to be across the board. At any rate, the CA courts have found that funding schools solely thru local property taxes violates the state constitution. I don’t know how that constitution compares to the US version and whether or not something similar could be successful at the national level. Regarding the idea of economic classes as a “protected class”… sure, we could arbitrarily create any number of classes, but they would be entirely arbitrary. Someone making a penny a year more than someone else would be in a different economic class. I don’t see how it could be limited to access to government services, either. There is no constitutional clause that is restricted to “access to government services”. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2007, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-this-scotus-article-seem-a-little-biased-to-you/409867/47 "2007-06-29T19:59:24Z")
[QUOTE=John Mace] There is no constitutional clause that is restricted to “access to government services”. [/QUOTE] Sure there is. > [@Article XIV](#): > > Section 1. All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws. Unless you’re suggesting that there are privileges of being a citizen that the rich don’t get more than the poor? Daniel ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2007, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-this-scotus-article-seem-a-little-biased-to-you/409867/48 "2007-06-29T20:00:08Z")
But it has been interpreted as protecting equal access to public accomodations? Why should we imagine that there is a bright line of seperation relative to “access to government services”? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2007, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-this-scotus-article-seem-a-little-biased-to-you/409867/49 "2007-06-29T20:05:30Z")
[QUOTE=Left Hand of Dorkness] Unless you’re suggesting that there are privileges of being a citizen that the rich don’t get more than the poor? [/QUOTE] Broadly speaking, there are only two classes of privileges that U.S. citizens have and noncitizens have not: 1. Right of residence on U.S. soil. If you’re a native-born citizen the state can lock you up, but it can’t exile or deport you for any crime – that’s a punishment unknown to our laws. 2. Right of political participation, including voting and holding public office. Benefits of the first accrue to all citizens equally regardless of wealth. Benefits of the second, decidedly not. ---
**Author:** ![anu-la1979](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/47e85d/32.png) [@anu-la1979](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/anu-la1979)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2007, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-this-scotus-article-seem-a-little-biased-to-you/409867/50 "2007-06-29T20:06:15Z")
> [@](#): > > **Hippy Hollow** : Take a look at the most affluent, high-achieving suburban schools. See how much assistance the teams, from football to debate, get from parents. There’s often a booster club that supplements the athletic budget. Or the volunteers are college-educated moms who are now staying at home. Or the debate teacher is assisted by a few parents, who happen to be lawyers… and so on. Low-income, majority minority schools don’t typically have that kind of support, because the parents don’t have that level of education, or jobs that allow them time to visit or volunteer in the schools. They also don’t have the personal connection with school board members to get the issues important to their kids front and center. > > If you look at census data, you can see quite clearly that their are racial disparities in home ownership, income, life expectancy, and so forth. (It should be noted, though, that the income gap is almost completely closed with four-year college degree attainment.) So we should be trying to make sure as many kids of color get to college, and earn degrees. Let’s do that for a while, and then we can move on to this color-blind dream. We can’t get from A to Z without taking steps B through Y first. > > Money helps. But so does parental involvement, political power, and media attention, things that majority minority schools often lack.Take a look at the most affluent, high-achieving suburban schools. See how much assistance the teams, from football to debate, get from parents. There’s often a booster club that supplements the athletic budget. Or the volunteers are college-educated moms who are now staying at home. Or the debate teacher is assisted by a few parents, who happen to be lawyers… and so on. Low-income, majority minority schools don’t typically have that kind of support, because the parents don’t have that level of education, or jobs that allow them time to visit or volunteer in the schools. They also don’t have the personal connection with school board members to get the issues important to their kids front and center. > > If you look at census data, you can see quite clearly that their are racial disparities in home ownership, income, life expectancy, and so forth. (It should be noted, though, that the income gap is almost completely closed with four-year college degree attainment.) So we should be trying to make sure as many kids of color get to college, and earn degrees. Let’s do that for a while, and then we can move on to this color-blind dream. We can’t get from A to Z without taking steps B through Y first. > > Money helps. But so does parental involvement, political power, and media attention, things that majority minority schools often lack. I completely agree with you-but here are my questions (it’s a pity I’m asking this in the pit instead of GD which is the tone of my query, I’m not being antagonistic) 1. Why must those with social capital be forced to share it or take care of those who do not have it? 2. Is having the state intervene to force people with social capital to interact with those from different backgrounds really going to have that much of an effect ? Do you believe interaction with those with social capital is going to affect more than a marginal percentage of all who do? I ask because I went to an upscale public school in MA that was among the first bussing communities. My experience was that a) after middle school, it was socially segregated based on advanced tracking and b) 99% of children in the bussing program did not make it into the advanced tracking program. The program essentially benefitted the 1% of participants who had a strong family structure at home that forced the child to take advantage of going to a wealthy public school. I don’t know what the answer is but my experience with “forced” bussing or forced class interaction where all kids have access to $X spent for their education is that the students essentially live parallel lives within the same school and that a large part of any student’s success comes from the atmosphere at home and you can’t make parents with social capital go to the home of other people and force them to parent their children as well. Of course, the other option for integration would be to eliminate advanced courses and teach everyone at the lowest common denominator of achievement. Otherwise, it doesn’t make much of a difference. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2007, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-this-scotus-article-seem-a-little-biased-to-you/409867/51 "2007-06-29T20:08:42Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] Broadly speaking, there are only two classes of privileges that U.S. citizens have and noncitizens have not: 1. Right of residence on U.S. soil. If you’re a native-born citizen the state can lock you up, but it can’t exile or deport you for any crime – that’s a punishment unknown to our laws. 2. Right of political participation, including voting and holding public office. Benefits of the first accrue to all citizens equally regardless of wealth. Benefits of the second, decidedly not. [/QUOTE] I’m not seeing “access to government services” in this list, even though Brown clearly interpreted the fourteenth amendment to indicate such. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2007, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-this-scotus-article-seem-a-little-biased-to-you/409867/52 "2007-06-29T20:52:31Z")
[QUOTE=Left Hand of Dorkness] Sure there is. Unless you’re suggesting that there are privileges of being a citizen that the rich don’t get more than the poor? Daniel [/QUOTE] I’m not following your argument. Are you saying that the term “privileges” in that clause refers only to “access to government services”? If so, can you indicate where you get that interpretation from? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2007, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-this-scotus-article-seem-a-little-biased-to-you/409867/53 "2007-06-29T20:56:15Z")
I would imagine that is _among_ the privileges, unless you can show cause why they are excluded. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2007, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-this-scotus-article-seem-a-little-biased-to-you/409867/54 "2007-06-29T21:01:49Z")
[QUOTE=elucidator] I would imagine that is _among_ the privileges, unless you can show cause why they are excluded. [/QUOTE] That’s what I would imagine, too. So I don’t see how the courts could craft something, on a constitutional basis, that would only affect access to government services. Even if they tried to, future court cases would surely expand it beyond that. It would only make sense. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2007, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-this-scotus-article-seem-a-little-biased-to-you/409867/55 "2007-06-29T21:08:04Z")
[QUOTE=Left Hand of Dorkness] I’m not seeing “access to government services” in this list, even though Brown clearly interpreted the fourteenth amendment to indicate such. Daniel [/QUOTE] Government services are generally supposed to be available to all **residents,** not just citizens. (Though there have been political movements to change that.) ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2007, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-this-scotus-article-seem-a-little-biased-to-you/409867/56 "2007-06-29T21:30:33Z")
Well, thats all sorted out. Where do we file one of those _amicus_ thingys? ---
**Author:** ![Zoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a4c791/32.png) [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2007, 5:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-this-scotus-article-seem-a-little-biased-to-you/409867/57 "2007-06-30T05:50:57Z")
> [@](#): > > **Hippy** : I ask because I went to an upscale public school in MA that was among the first bussing communities. My experience was that a) after middle school, it was socially segregated based on advanced tracking and b) 99% of children in the bussing program did not make it into the advanced tracking program. The program essentially benefitted the 1% of participants who had a strong family structure at home that forced the child to take advantage of going to a wealthy public school. I know from my experiences as a teacher that parental expectations are a key factor. But there are other ways to benefit besides academically. Didn’t you see any socializing at all? This is really a surprise to me. I’m wondering if the difference in our ages has anything to do with it. Despite my father’s promises, I did not attend an integrated school before I went to college. There was one African-American male in my freshman class. He was the first admitted to the college. I remember segregated fountains, restrooms, waiting rooms in bus stations. A 27 year old minister named Andrew Young taught me the lyrics to _Eyes on the Prize_ and _We Shall Overcome_ on the campus of that same college in the summer of 1961. He was the first Black person who ever told me about how inconvenient it was to be Black. I know this is ignorant, but I had no idea. Now I am almost a lifetime away from all of that and I see how different it is – though not as different as I would like for it to be. But Blacks and whites do seem to feel more comfortable together. I got a hug from a friend I hadn’t seen in a while and I exchanged pleasantries with a couple of strangers. Both seemed to feel comfortable in initiatinting the conversations. Is this kind of interracial interaction just a Southern thing? I chose to teach in integrated schools the first year that I taught (1969). And I watched the “us _vs._ them” attitude relax. Sports activities helped a lot and still do. When we got the Tennessee Titans, that sealed the deal for Nashville. Steve McNair was everyone’s hero. (Still is, you lucky Ravens!) My point in all of this is **that integration (forced or voluntary) has changed our society for the better**! I resent anything that threatens to reverse the direction we’ve been moving. ---
**Author:** ![Zoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a4c791/32.png) [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2007, 6:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-this-scotus-article-seem-a-little-biased-to-you/409867/58 "2007-06-30T06:16:40Z")
> [@](#): > > **Martin Hyde** : Government needs to be more concerned with the average and the below average students than the exceptional ones. I agree with a lot of your post, but not this part. Gifted students are considered “Special Education” students. Yet, for every dollar spent on a gifted student, $100 dollars is spent on a learning disabled student. That is unfair. The amount doesn’t have to be the same, but certainly there should be a better balance. > [@](#): > > **Left Hand of Dorkness** : We’re talking about situations in which children get a drastically worse education because schools in poor areas are worse-funded than schools in wealthy areas. I was witness to a bewildering event that took place in the school where I used to teach. The building was new when I retired. It was in the middle of the inner city and had some really nice features including an Olympic-sized swimming pool and a state-of-the-art library. The students (low income Blacks and whites) were _very_ proud of it. Their old school had been built in the Nineteeth Century. The school was then given a National grant of some sort that was just unbelievable. Banks of computers were installed in _every_ room along with cable televisions and telephones for the teachers. While this may sound like standard office equipment to you guys, we weren’t even air-conditioned until the mid-1980s. I don’t know what other technical advantages these classrooms were wired for or what other assists these teachers had, but their classrooms were showplaces. I know that the teachers were hardworking and most of them were qualified. The kids were, for the most part, good kids. But their scores and attendance did not improve. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2007, 6:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-this-scotus-article-seem-a-little-biased-to-you/409867/59 "2007-06-30T06:22:21Z")
Not possible to go back, white folks don’t want it and the black folks won’t stand for it. Progress may be slowed, but it’s _real_ hard to reverse. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2007, 7:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-this-scotus-article-seem-a-little-biased-to-you/409867/60 "2007-06-30T07:15:20Z")
[QUOTE=Zoe] My point in all of this is **that integration (forced or voluntary) has changed our society for the better**! I resent anything that threatens to reverse the direction we’ve been moving. [/QUOTE] I’m not sure how we are supposed to interpret that. Is your resention supposed to be relevant to the constitutionality of this issue? Are you arguing that if someone resents something, that that is meaningful wrt how the SCOTUS should decide a given case? Please elaborate. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-this-scotus-article-seem-a-little-biased-to-you/409867.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-this-scotus-article-seem-a-little-biased-to-you/409867.md?page=4)