# Does this settle the vaccines cause autism question? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 26, 2011, 4:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-this-settle-the-vaccines-cause-autism-question/594137 "2011-08-26T04:26:02Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2011, 3:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-this-settle-the-vaccines-cause-autism-question/594137/21 "2011-08-27T03:56:39Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Bottom line is that you cannot use reason to change a position which is not based on reason in the first place. > > Regards, > Shodan (who has about a 10% hearing loss in one ear because he did not get the MMR in time) The MMR vaccine causes hearing loss! :eek: ---
**Author:** ![Washoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/ecae2f/32.png) [@Washoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Washoe)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2011, 5:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-this-settle-the-vaccines-cause-autism-question/594137/22 "2011-08-27T05:55:07Z")
My wife’s former employer is a woman whose daughter was injured by the DPT vaccine and became a spastic quadriplegic. After her daughter died two years ago at the age of fifteen, mom became a raving anti-vax nutter and now spends all the money she got from the NVICP settlement flying around the country giving speeches at autism conventions, as if she actually knows shit from shinola about autism. I just found this picture of her on her imbecilic blog: [http://www.ericlevonian.com/twofruitcakes.jpg](http://www.ericlevonian.com/twofruitcakes.jpg) OK, so it’s apropos of nothing as far as the conversation at hand is concerned, but I just had to grumble to a sympathetic audience. ---
**Author:** ![China\_Guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/779978/32.png) [@China\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/China_Guy)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2011, 6:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-this-settle-the-vaccines-cause-autism-question/594137/23 "2011-08-27T06:27:48Z")
Nope. I am on several autism email aliases. I get shit all the time from the anti vax crowd (as well as the diet crowd). The Anti-vax crowd are still “that English doctor, who falisfied his study, is the only one who dared to tell the truth.” Look, having an autistic child, well, no matter how you put it, kinda sucks overall in the grand scheme of things. I wouldn’t trade my daughter for the world, but I can’t help that sometimes in the dark of night wonder about what life might have been had she been neurotypical. It is a pallitive solution to be able to blame it on something other than “shit happens.” I get that. But the antivaxers are out there. Pity is more appropriate than scorn as it can be a tough row to hoe. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2011, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-this-settle-the-vaccines-cause-autism-question/594137/24 "2011-08-27T14:46:11Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > The anti-vax vs vac dispute will end when a cost effective, safe, broad spectrum antiviral make vaccines obsolete. > > Which ironically would be a concession by the vax crowd. The only “irony” I see is in the failure to understand the value of preventing diseases instead of needing to treat them after they develop with drugs which will never be universally effective, cheap or free from side effects and problems with development of resistant organisms. Not to mention that many current vaccines protect against _bacterial_ diseases (i.e. pertussis, diphtheria, tetanus) which would be unaffected by antiviral drugs. ---
**Author:** ![Annie-Xmas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecc23a/32.png) [@Annie-Xmas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Annie-Xmas)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2011, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-this-settle-the-vaccines-cause-autism-question/594137/25 "2011-08-27T15:47:14Z")
The anti-vax crowd will admit they are wrong the day after the anti-abortion crowd admit abortion does not cause breast cancer. ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2011, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-this-settle-the-vaccines-cause-autism-question/594137/26 "2011-08-27T16:08:35Z")
> [@LavenderBlue](#): > > Oh dear. > > You realize that shots are mostly water? And what is in the shots is harmless in such small quantities? > > I’m very happy that they now have more shots now. > > Take just one vaccine, the hib: > > As a result of the vaccine: > > Parents should be aware of stats like that far more than they should be aware of whatever stupidity comes out of Jenny McCarthy’s tiny brain. Oh dear _what_? There’s nothing wrong with being conscious of what you put into your child’s body. I never said that vaccines were wrong; I said the spotlight on drug companies is not necessarily a bad thing. I stopped vaccinating my child. At the time he was born, there was definitely a hysteria over vaccinations, but I was getting them anyway. BUT then son had two asthma attacks after two vacs, spiked serious fevers and was in the ER both times…so…I put off his boosters until he was older/stronger/whatever. He’s six and a half and hasn’t had an asthma attack in about ten months. I’ll get the rest of his shots over the next year. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2011, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-this-settle-the-vaccines-cause-autism-question/594137/27 "2011-08-27T16:33:48Z")
> [@CitizenPained](#): > > I stopped vaccinating my child. At the time he was born, there was definitely a hysteria over vaccinations, but I was getting them anyway. BUT then son had two asthma attacks after two vacs, spiked serious fevers and was in the ER both times…so…I put off his boosters until he was older/stronger/whatever. He’s six and a half and hasn’t had an asthma attack in about ten months. I understand that it is difficult to convince parents who see events that occur in close temporal association and decide that one _must_ have caused the other. But vaccines [have not been shown](http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/111/3/653.full) to cause asthma or any other chronic ailment. On the other hand, infectious diseases like influenza can and do trigger asthma. So if a child is at risk of asthmatic attacks, preventing the diseases that can cause them via vaccination is beneficial. > [@](#): > > I’ll get the rest of his shots over the next year. I’m glad he will receive them. But until he does, he and those around him will be at unnecessary risk. ---
**Author:** ![eclectic\_wench](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ac91a4/32.png) [@eclectic\_wench](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eclectic_wench)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2011, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-this-settle-the-vaccines-cause-autism-question/594137/28 "2011-08-27T16:35:02Z")
This may not make any difference to the hard-core anti-vaccine brigade…but it could help reassure parents who believe vaccines are absolutely necessary and enormously beneficial and one of the best inventions of modern man, but who still, dammit, in some place at the back of their minds, have these irrational niggling little worries just from having been exposed to all the media hype about Wakefield. A small percentage of me worried after my daughter got the MMR. We never for a second considered leaving her unvaccinated, and I could have kicked myself for worrying, but I did anyway. Basically, I think the actual issue was already settled…but some people’s nerves could use the extra settling. Human beings aren’t Vulcans. We’re not 100% rational, and it’s silly (and irrational) to insist that we should be. Sensible people have irrational fears, and helping to calm them is a good thing. ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2011, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-this-settle-the-vaccines-cause-autism-question/594137/29 "2011-08-27T17:35:27Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > I understand that it is difficult to convince parents who see events that occur in close temporal association and decide that one _must_ have caused the other. But vaccines [have not been shown](http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/111/3/653.full) to cause asthma or any other chronic ailment. On the other hand, infectious diseases like influenza can and do trigger asthma. So if a child is at risk of asthmatic attacks, preventing the diseases that can cause them via vaccination is beneficial. I think you misunderstand: He has asthma. When he spikes a high fever and gets sickly, he is more prone to asthma attacks. He had his first attack at about 3.5 years old. The next two shots he had (one reg vaccine, one flu), he got sick as usual (I have the same issue, I always feel like super shit sick after a shot) but it was so bad he ended up wheezing and a huge mess and in the ER. Both times. > [@](#): > > I’m glad he will receive them. But until he does, he and those around him will be at unnecessary risk. Not really. He stopped getting his vaccines at 4 - so right now, he’s at the 6-7 y/o booster stage. There’s no need to be pretentious about it. When you have an MD and become our family doctor, we’ll chat. Please don’t put my child’s health in the category of “unnecessary to have concern”. ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2011, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-this-settle-the-vaccines-cause-autism-question/594137/30 "2011-08-27T17:54:28Z")
I should clarify; sorry: He is done with most typical child vaccines. The last one was a whopper. He has “boosters” left on [his chart](http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm5351-Immunizationa1.htm), which was released in 2004. Then last year (age 5), at the beginning of the school year, he had a flu vaccine (obviously; he’s asthmatic). Of course, he got the ‘flu-like’ symptoms and was a real mess and had to be put on prednisone (_sigh_, again). He got a strain of the flu anyway (ER, long nights, bla bla bla, super suck) but it happens. So I put off his boosters til he was a bit bigger and was 100 per cent backed up on that. But looking at his chart (and again, my rounds of vaccines are different than what he had and we live in a different state and he’s six now), he’s actually not due for awhile. What I haven’t done yet is his his Hep A, but a [PVC13](http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/vpd-vac/pneumo/in-short-both.htm#who) may be a good idea. The first ER trip was horrible. The doc originally thought he’d ingested peanuts or something (he’s allergic to nuts) and ‘treated him like it was an allergic reaction’, pumping him full of steroids and putting him on oxygen. They worried he’d have to be intubated, but luckily that didn’t happen. ☹ ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2011, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-this-settle-the-vaccines-cause-autism-question/594137/31 "2011-08-27T18:18:49Z")
> [@CitizenPained](#): > > I think you misunderstand: He has asthma. When he spikes a high fever and gets sickly, he is more prone to asthma attacks. Which is why I mentioned the advisability of protecting him against vaccine-preventable diseases which often cause high fevers and respiratory complications, and can cause or worsen asthma. > [@](#): > > I always feel like super shit sick after a shot Really? Any type of injection? And could there be stress/anxiety that your son experiences when you take him in for a vaccination (due to your own concerns) that affect his susceptibility to asthma? As far as not putting him and others at risk by delaying immunization since they’re “only” booster shots, those are strongly recommended for a reason - immunity is incomplete without them. > [@](#): > > There’s no need to be pretentious about it. What exactly is “pretentious” about citing the lack of evidence for a vaccine-asthma connection, and pointing out the advisability of following carefully thought-out immunization recommendations? > [@](#): > > When you have an MD and become our family doctor, we’ll chat. Please don’t put my child’s health in the category of “unnecessary to have concern”. I am an M.D., though obviously not your family doctor (folks who, along with pediatricians like **DSeid** I sympathize with as they try to alleviate unfounded vaccine concerns of parents who unwittingly are risking the health of their children and the community around them). It’s not what you want to hear, but it needs to be said. ---
**Author:** ![LavenderBlue](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e95f7d/32.png) [@LavenderBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LavenderBlue)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2011, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-this-settle-the-vaccines-cause-autism-question/594137/32 "2011-08-27T20:02:23Z")
> [@CitizenPained](#): > > Oh dear _what_? > > There’s nothing wrong with being conscious of what you put into your child’s body. I never said that vaccines were wrong; I said the spotlight on drug companies is not necessarily a bad thing. > > I stopped vaccinating my child. At the time he was born, there was definitely a hysteria over vaccinations, but I was getting them anyway. BUT then son had two asthma attacks after two vacs, spiked serious fevers and was in the ER both times…so…I put off his boosters until he was older/stronger/whatever. He’s six and a half and hasn’t had an asthma attack in about ten months. I’ll get the rest of his shots over the next year. The clear implication of your words is that there’s reason to be concerned about vaccine ingredients or the number of vaccines we give children. Neither one of those assertions is true. I am truly sorry your son has asthma. Did you have a c-section? Because unlike vaccines, [c-sections](http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/06/080618114718.htm) really are correlated with asthma. ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2011, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-this-settle-the-vaccines-cause-autism-question/594137/33 "2011-08-27T20:24:30Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > Which is why I mentioned the advisability of protecting him against vaccine-preventable diseases which often cause high fevers and respiratory complications, and can cause or worsen asthma. Perhaps you are so hellbent on being ‘right’ that you didn’t read my post? > [@](#): > > Really? Any type of injection? And could there be stress/anxiety that your son experiences when you take him in for a vaccination (due to your own concerns) that affect his susceptibility to asthma? I doubt it. The last time he had his major round of shots, I got stabbed with the pox vaccine just to make him feel better. (It was unnecessary, but I took it for the team.) > [@](#): > > As far as not putting him and others at risk by delaying immunization since they’re “only” booster shots, those are strongly recommended for a reason - immunity is incomplete without them. head/smack > [@](#): > > What exactly is “pretentious” about citing the lack of evidence for a vaccine-asthma connection, So are you telling me that there’s no link between high fevers and flu-like symptoms and asthma attacks? [Or that there aren’t sometimes reactions to vaccines?](http://www.seattlechildrens.org/medical-conditions/symptom-index/immunization-reactions/) :dubious: Did you get your MD from Mickey Mouse U? > [@](#): > > and pointing out the advisability of following carefully thought-out immunization recommendations? They also change - my son started his following a chart that looks like [this](http://gothampeds.com/immunize.html), while kids today start out following a chart that looks [like this](http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/recs/schedules/downloads/child/0-6yrs-schedule-pr.pdf). > [@](#): > > I am an M.D., though obviously not your family doctor (folks who, along with pediatricians like **DSeid** I sympathize with as they try to alleviate unfounded vaccine concerns of parents who unwittingly are risking the health of their children and the community around them). If I have some kind of ‘unfounded’ vaccine concern, I supposed you could take it up with the other M.D. - the one we go to. Actually, I’ve heard it from two now, but only one is his ped. > [@LavenderBlue](#): > > The clear implication of your words is that there’s reason to be concerned about vaccine ingredients or the number of vaccines we give children. Neither one of those assertions is true. I am truly sorry your son has asthma. Did you have a c-section? Because unlike vaccines, [c-sections](http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/06/080618114718.htm) really are correlated with asthma. Um, no, no c-section. But I do think it’s very valid for parents to say to drug companies, “Hey, wtf are you putting in these legally-mandated drugs?” and for the drug companies to respond. There is a benefit to medical studies such as these - one, they educate, and two, I think it does make people more responsible. It’s not like drugs are _always_ safe. It isn’t just drugs, though. Parents (and school institutions) are known for putting shitty food in their kids’ bodies without thinking twice. Again - I can’t believe I have to repeat myself - **I never said that the vaccinations caused his asthma. He already had it. I said they made him feel very sick, and, for whatever reason, had trouble breathing.** ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2011, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-this-settle-the-vaccines-cause-autism-question/594137/34 "2011-08-27T20:30:18Z")
edit: double. sorry. ---
**Author:** ![elfkin477](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/a9a28c/32.png) [@elfkin477](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elfkin477)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2011, 6:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-this-settle-the-vaccines-cause-autism-question/594137/35 "2011-08-28T06:49:43Z")
> [@CitizenPained](#): > > Then last year (age 5), at the beginning of the school year, he had a flu vaccine (obviously; he’s asthmatic). Of course, he got the ‘flu-like’ symptoms and was a real mess and had to be put on prednisone Which flu vaccine did he get, the mist or the shot? According to the CDC he’s not supposed to get the former since those of us with asthma are at risk of developing symptoms like his if we do. ---
**Author:** ![Abe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/f1d935/32.png) [@Abe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Abe)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2011, 7:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-this-settle-the-vaccines-cause-autism-question/594137/36 "2011-08-28T07:41:39Z")
> [@CitizenPained](#): > > So are you telling me that there’s no link between > > high fevers and flu-like symptoms > and asthma attacks? > [Or that there aren’t sometimes reactions to vaccines?](http://www.seattlechildrens.org/medical-conditions/symptom-index/immunization-reactions/) It is possible in a \*small number \*of recipients to see some unusual adverse side effects from immunization shots. But, if I am reading you correctly, you are in favour of avoiding a temporary inconvenience/problem rather than conferring long-term immunity. That doesn’t seem like a good trade-off at all. > [@](#): > > :dubious: > > Did you get your MD from Mickey Mouse U? His comments so far look right on the money to me, though I am not an MD; you probably want to tone it down a few notches. ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2011, 8:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-this-settle-the-vaccines-cause-autism-question/594137/37 "2011-08-28T08:33:15Z")
I do not think breathing problems in a little boy is a ‘temporary inconvenience’. But hey, you’re allowed your opinion. I sleep perfectly fine at night. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2011, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-this-settle-the-vaccines-cause-autism-question/594137/38 "2011-08-28T15:09:37Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > Which is why I mentioned the advisability of protecting him against vaccine-preventable diseases which often cause high fevers and respiratory complications, and can cause or worsen asthma. > [@CitizenPained](#): > > Perhaps you are so hellbent on being ‘right’ that you didn’t read my post? > [@CitizenPained](#): > > So are you telling me that there’s no link between > > high fevers and flu-like symptoms > and asthma attacks? :rolleyes: I don’t think this communication breakdown can be repaired. One final thought: do moms like **CitizenPained** , whose kids have asthma or are otherwise at risk from virulent vaccine-preventable diseases and who depend on herd immunity to get by without completely vaccinating their own kids, ever worry about how many other moms in their community are taking the same gamble? ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2011, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-this-settle-the-vaccines-cause-autism-question/594137/39 "2011-08-28T16:42:40Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > :rolleyes: > > I don’t think this communication breakdown can be repaired. One final thought: do moms like **CitizenPained** , whose kids have asthma or are otherwise at risk from virulent vaccine-preventable diseases and who depend on herd immunity to get by without completely vaccinating their own kids, ever worry about how many other moms in their community are taking the same gamble? So you’re telling me that if your child had breathing problems after the DTaP (coincidence? donno) you’d take him back for a booster a year later against your doc’s advice? I’d like a positive affirmation of this, please. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2011, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-this-settle-the-vaccines-cause-autism-question/594137/40 "2011-08-28T18:06:59Z")
We’re telling you that we’d all try to protect our children, and that child being more vulnerable than usual is all the more reason to protect him. You’re the one arguing _against_ protecting your child. Why are you arguing that? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-this-settle-the-vaccines-cause-autism-question/594137.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-this-settle-the-vaccines-cause-autism-question/594137.md?page=3)