# Does this sound fishy? (Web-payment, poss. credit card scam?)
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-this-sound-fishy-web-payment-poss-credit-card-scam/485406
**Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share
**Created:** [February 11, 2009, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-this-sound-fishy-web-payment-poss-credit-card-scam/485406 "2009-02-11T18:58:44Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 1
### Author:  [@choie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/choie)
#### Post date: [February 11, 2009, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-this-sound-fishy-web-payment-poss-credit-card-scam/485406/1 "2009-02-11T18:58:44Z")
Hi all. I do the web design for an author who uses a basic PayPal payment page for her online shopping cart. Works fine, no problems so far. She doesn’t have many online buyers – most people who purchase go through the 1-800 phone number that’s run by her book distributers. She also sends out books on her own, but as I said, most people go with the toll-free number.
Anyway, now she’s received an email out of the blue from a guy from Taiwan who wants to buy 100 copies of her book. The author wants to push him to pay her directly, rather than go through the distributor, because this way she doesn’t have to pay the exhorbitant fee to her distributors (she loses about 75% of each sale to them). But since she doesn’t have a merchant account (she doesn’t want to pay the fees), the only option is using the PayPal form.
Rather than using the standard form, which has a fairly low S&H fee hard-coded into it, the author wants me to set up a unique page specifically for this potential customer, together with a (pricier) shipping/handling fee.
That’s all fine. But this guy has now told her that though he has an “American credit card,” he can only make payment by sending the number via email, rather than through a webpage.
This seems … odd to me. Does it set off any alarm bells with you guys? Is Taiwan blocked from using online payment systems? That seems hard to believe. If not, why would anyone prefer to send a credit card number through email – an incredibly insecure method – rather than going through PayPal’s secure system? I know many people don’t like/trust PayPal, but that doesn’t appear to be the case here; this guy seems to be unwilling to go through _any_ web payment system.
Yet I don’t even know what I’m worried about. Credit card fraud, I guess. What if this is a stolen card number and the author sends out the books only to have the charge disputed?
Could this be a scam? Or am I being too paranoid?
\*ETA: Should I have put this in GQ instead? There is a factual question in here: whether Taiwanese are blocked from online payments for some reason. But it’s almost a rhetorical question 'cause I really don’t think they are. But if this would be better suited for GQ, I’ll ask to have it moved. \*
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### Author:  [@SmartAleq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SmartAleq)
#### Post date: [February 11, 2009, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-this-sound-fishy-web-payment-poss-credit-card-scam/485406/2 "2009-02-11T19:07:52Z")
Sounds dodgy/fishy to me and I’d have none of it…
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### Author:  [@choie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/choie)
#### Post date: [February 11, 2009, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-this-sound-fishy-web-payment-poss-credit-card-scam/485406/3 "2009-02-11T19:20:21Z")
Yeah. I hear you, **SmartAleq**.
Got some more info from the author when I asked her for some more details. (Note: she’s Russian, which is why the English is slightly ‘off’):
> [@](#):
>
> He did not explain, but said he can pay with credit card through email. In
> his first email he said that he is American, Antonio Pao Su relocated to Taiwan
> and he has American credit card. He is Chinese American according to his
> name. He’s using [hotmail.com](http://hotmail.com). After he placed order for 200 books, I asked him if he is wholesaler or distributor, he answered that he has a store, but he doesn’t have website.
>
> Then he asked me to get shipping quote from Moore Access Freight in UK with
> his business address in Tampei. After British company gave me a quote for
> shipping $3600, and admitted that he is their customer. But with quote of $3600
> shipping, handling and taxes + cost of books it makes total of more than
> $6000, but he did not object total.
>
> It looks that new Taiwanese dollar today does support purchases of Taiwan
> buyers from U.S.A. For example, $1.00–34(TWN)=.34 cents and can cost him about
> 2110 (TWN). And yes, he’s going to resell the books in his store. I already
> offered him to set up a unique payment page and/or wire transfer (bank to
> bank), but he wants to pay with credit card through email. Even so, he must
> given all info in email. The problem is that I don’t have set up to charge credit
> cards myself. The safe part is that I should send to him the books after
> he’ll pay:cost of books +freight cost to my co. Then he said, I’ll pay British
> shipping company when they’ll collect goods. At first it did not look like
> some scam. So now I don’t know what to do? This 200 books’ order is too good to
> be true, probably.
Alarm bells clanging here. I did a quick lookup of this Moore Access Freight company and found not a single web result. Even my late father’s tiny old company, which closed in 2000 and never had a website, turns up at least one hit on Google!
[This seems all too familiar…](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=498879)
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### Author:  [@Litoris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Litoris)
#### Post date: [February 11, 2009, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-this-sound-fishy-web-payment-poss-credit-card-scam/485406/4 "2009-02-11T19:21:38Z")
Sounds dodgy as hell to me, but so does the author, wanting to cut out her distributor and charge extra S&H. Meh – unless you’re her accountant or in some way responsible for her financial well-being, I’d say it’s her decision whether or not she wants to go that route.
FWIW, where I work, we only ship internationally with a $500 minimum and the customer must hire their own freight forwarder, and we only accept payment via credit card – and we have taken orders from Taiwan. The orders are almost always done via phone, since our website does not allow international orders (due to the requirements) or via email, so maybe that makes a difference.
ETA – Upon seeing your latest addition to the thread – yes. This is a scam. We had a similar one tried with us.
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### Author:  [@choie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/choie)
#### Post date: [February 11, 2009, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-this-sound-fishy-web-payment-poss-credit-card-scam/485406/5 "2009-02-11T19:29:09Z")
Hiya **Litoris**. Normally I just try to help my clients, not get involved in their financial stuff, but in a way I’d feel like an accessory (by setting up the webpage allowing her to take this guy’s money), so if I can suss out whether it’s legit beforehand, I’d feel better. Sort of the similar situation to the link in my last post. I can’t help feeling a little responsible for these older, not-very-web-savvy folks. Also, speaking purely as a mercenary, I don’t want this woman to get suckered, considering that I want her solvent enough to pay me! 🙂
Can you add some details about the attempted scam you experienced?
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### Author:  [@Baracus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baracus)
#### Post date: [February 11, 2009, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-this-sound-fishy-web-payment-poss-credit-card-scam/485406/6 "2009-02-11T19:31:12Z")
If she is supposed to pay the shipping company out of the funds that he pays her, then it is almost definitely a scam.
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### Author:  [@XJETGIRLX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XJETGIRLX)
#### Post date: [February 11, 2009, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-this-sound-fishy-web-payment-poss-credit-card-scam/485406/7 "2009-02-11T19:35:41Z")
Sounds like the guy is trying to scam her. But even if he wasn’t, why can’t she just take the guy’s cc from the email and then run it through her own website?
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### Author:  [@choie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/choie)
#### Post date: [February 11, 2009, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-this-sound-fishy-web-payment-poss-credit-card-scam/485406/8 "2009-02-11T19:41:34Z")
Yeah, I found an [article about another author](http://redtape.msnbc.com/2008/08/sue-brown-was-e.html) who was almost taken in by a very similar-sounding customer (except this one was Nigerian – of course, if this “Antonio Pau Su” dude was from Nigeria I’d have known right away this was fake).
**XJETGIRLX** , that was our original thought, having her take his info and run it through the website payment, and she probably would have, if not for the fact that she needed a different shipping & handling fee. (The standard S&H rate she charges is $6, and she just wanted to change this to reflect the greater cost to shipping overseas.)
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### Author:  [@Litoris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Litoris)
#### Post date: [February 11, 2009, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-this-sound-fishy-web-payment-poss-credit-card-scam/485406/9 "2009-02-11T19:42:18Z")
> [@choie](#):
>
> Hiya **Litoris**. Normally I just try to help my clients, not get involved in their financial stuff, but in a way I’d feel like an accessory (by setting up the webpage allowing her to take this guy’s money), so if I can suss out whether it’s legit beforehand, I’d feel better. Sort of the similar situation to the link in my last post. I can’t help feeling a little responsible for these older, not-very-web-savvy folks. Also, speaking purely as a mercenary, I don’t want this woman to get suckered, considering that I want her solvent enough to pay me! 🙂
>
> Can you add some details about the attempted scam you experienced?
Here’s a copy of the email we got about it from another company in our industry – just sounds similar to what you have:
> [@](#):
>
> WARNING: Potential scam involving T-shirt bags
>
> Recently we have discovered a potential scam operation in which a customer orders large quantities (100 - 400 cases) of plain and Thank-You T-shirt bags from a distributor. To date four of our distributors have accepted orders from the same customer. When we realized these orders were all shipping to the same address we became alarmed and notified the distributors. A physical inspection of the shipping address confirmed there was not a legitimate business present at the delivery address.
>
> The purpose of this e-mail is to make you aware of what is going on in hopes we can help protect you from falling victim to one of these scams. It is not possible for us to check each order, so it is our recommendation that you carefully monitor any orders from unknown customers for large quantities of T-shirt bags.
>
> Please feel free to call us with any questions at \.
I couldn’t find the other email that we got that had more detail (this was a little over a year ago), but the reason we (our company) caught it was that the orders with us went on an automatic hold – we do that with new customers who order large quantities, so we can follow up with them to make sure they meant to order that much. Since we are a wholesale company that also sells to individuals, you can imagine we have had some interesting things happen (customer thinks they need to order the number of bags, not cases of bags and manages to order 10,000 bags when they meant to only order 100).
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### Author:  [@Sigmagirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sigmagirl)
#### Post date: [February 11, 2009, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-this-sound-fishy-web-payment-poss-credit-card-scam/485406/10 "2009-02-11T20:12:46Z")
Is hers the type of book for which even a legitimate buyer would need 100 copies?
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### Author:  [@choie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/choie)
#### Post date: [February 11, 2009, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-this-sound-fishy-web-payment-poss-credit-card-scam/485406/11 "2009-02-11T20:33:04Z")
Thanks, **Litoris** , that’s helpful. Am I reading this correctly in that a competitor is the one who sent out that warning email? If so, that’s surprisingly civic-minded of them! Nice to see there’s a community looking out for one another.
**Sigmagirl** , this Antonio dude claims to have a store (not online, natch) and plans to resell the books.
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### Author:  [@Litoris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Litoris)
#### Post date: [February 11, 2009, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-this-sound-fishy-web-payment-poss-credit-card-scam/485406/12 "2009-02-11T20:42:26Z")
Yeah, it was a competitor – we can be a friendly bunch. We’re competitive with pricing, but we do look out for one another.
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### Author:  [@Sunspace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sunspace)
#### Post date: [February 11, 2009, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-this-sound-fishy-web-payment-poss-credit-card-scam/485406/13 "2009-02-11T21:41:22Z")
So is the scam that the credit card turns out to be fake, after the products have shipped? How would sending the credit-card number by email instead of entering it directly in a webpage help the scammer delay the card validation? Presumably the shipper would validate the card before shipping, right?
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### Author:  [@Litoris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Litoris)
#### Post date: [February 11, 2009, 10:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-this-sound-fishy-web-payment-poss-credit-card-scam/485406/14 "2009-02-11T22:11:07Z")
> [@Sunspace](#):
>
> So is the scam that the credit card turns out to be fake, after the products have shipped? How would sending the credit-card number by email instead of entering it directly in a webpage help the scammer delay the card validation? Presumably the shipper would validate the card before shipping, right?
I have looked and looked for the other email, it was more detailed, but I can’t find it. Like I said, it’s been a while, so I don’t remember everything about it. I shall see if anyone else remembers the details around here.
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### Author:  [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)
#### Post date: [February 12, 2009, 12:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-this-sound-fishy-web-payment-poss-credit-card-scam/485406/15 "2009-02-12T00:27:58Z")
> [@Sunspace](#):
>
> So is the scam that the credit card turns out to be fake, after the products have shipped?
Possibly, although I expect the scammer doesn’t really want the books - more likely it’s a fake overpayment scam - he accidentally pays too much, then says he can’t retract the payment, but could you please send the balance back to him by a separate money order. The money order you send goes through (because it’s genuine), his original payment bounces, but only later, after you’ve sent the money order.
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### Author:  [@choie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/choie)
#### Post date: [February 12, 2009, 2:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-this-sound-fishy-web-payment-poss-credit-card-scam/485406/16 "2009-02-12T02:31:13Z")
Thanks for all the answers, guys. After getting my client to send me the alleged customer’s emails (together with the so-called shipping company), I’ve confirmed that this is utter bushwah.
For those wondering what the point of this particular scam is, it’s basically to rip the seller off of shipping fees. Here’s the email from the “shipper” (who naturally, like all major companies, uses a [yahoo.co.uk](http://yahoo.co.uk) address). I’ve bolded the parts where the scam is made clear:
> [@](#):
>
> DEAR ,
> THANK YOU FOR CONTACTING MOORE ACCESS FREIGHT AND WE ARE VERY GRATEFUL. IN REGARDS TO YOUR REQUEST, WE RAN INTO OUR DATA BASE ON THE LOCATION YOU PROVIDED AND ALSO INDENTIFIED THE CUSTOMER ID NUMBER(TW56HFJ76T) AND LATER GOT TO DISCOVER THAT WE HAVE SHIPPED SOME PACKAGES THERE IN THE PAST. WE ARE LOCATED IN UNITED KINGDOM BUT HELP PRIVATE CUSTOMERS IN PICK UP LIKE THIS,YOU REQUESTED FOR SHIPPING:
>
> WE CAN QUOTE THE FOLLOWING:
>
> We offer the following quotation for the export to Taipei,Taiwan from (_address removed - choie_) , U.S.A.. Based on the description provided, please note that
> this quote is based on
>
> WEIGHTS AND DIMENSIONS:
>
> 7-8 carton boxes, weight; 240-270 lbs
> Service Type: Door-to-Door ( Duties & Taxes Included)
> Total: US$ 3610.60 Transit Time = 4 Days
> The above would include:
>
> Air Freight - Airport-to-Airport
> Terminal Fees @ Export Terminal
> Pick-up from _(address removed - choie)_\*\*
> Warehouse Handling
> Airport transfer
> Export Forwarding & Document Preparation
> Electronic presentation of SED
> Local Messenger/Courier
> Taiwan Customs Clearance
> Taiwan Agency Fees
> Terminal Fees in Taiwan
> Delivery from Taiwan Airport Import Terminal to Address in Taipei as provided below
> Local Taiwan Messenger/Courier
> Banking of Documents (If needed)
> Taiwan Duties & Taxes
> Courier of Originals to Taiwan (if needed)
> Insurance
> BROKERAGE AND ALL FREIGHT COST INCLUDED,PICK UP WILL BE MADE BY OUR AGENT IN THE STATES AFTER PAYMENT IS CONFIRMED, WE WILL PROVIDE YOU WITH THE SHIPPING INFORMATION AND YOU CAN SEND IT TO YOUR CUSTOMER AND IT WILL BE DELIVERED TO YOUR CUSTOMER IN 4 DAYS TIME AFTER PICK UP AND **IN REGARDS TO PAYMENT,WE DO NOT HAVE THE FACILILTY TO ACCEPT CREDIT CARD PAYMENTS,SO YOU WILL HAVE TO CHARGE THE TOTAL COST AND SHIPPING COST FROM THE CUSTOMER’S CREDIT CARD AND SEND US PAYMENT VIA WESTERN UNION/MONERYGRAM MONEY TRANSFER WHICH WILL BE SENT TO OUR AGENTS IN THE UNITED STATES** , IMMEDIATELY AFTER PAYMENT, THE ITEMS WILL BE PICKED UP FROM YOUR WAREHOUSE/OFFICE.THE COMPANY POLICY IMPLIES AND WE WILL ONLY ACCEPT TRANSACTION FROM THE SHIPPER(YOUR COMPANY),SO LET US KNOW IF YOU WILL LIKE TO PROCEED WITH THE SHIPMENT THEN WE WILL SEND YOU OUR PAYMENT INFORMATION SO THAT OUR AGENT CAN PICK UP THE PACKAGE A DAY AFTER CONFIRMATION OF PAYMENT AND HAVE IT SENT OUT TO YOUR CUSTOMER.
>
> **PLS NOTE THAT THE PAYMENT WILL BE MADE BY YOU AND THEN CHARGED TO YOUR CUSTOMER ON YOUR INVOICE.**
>
> CUSTOMER SERVICE,
> MOORE ACCESS FREIGHT
_Very_ legitimate-sounding, huh? :rolleyes:
So the idea is, “Antonio” would send the $4,000 or so (including the cost of books) to my client using a stolen credit card. The money might initially go through but since she’d be sending it right back to this shipping company (certainly “Antonio” under a different name), plus the books, this all costs nothing to the scammer. My client would be out the money once it inevitably transpires that the card is stolen.
[Here’s an article about another author who was nearly scammed in a very similar way.](http://redtape.msnbc.com/2008/08/sue-brown-was-e.html)
My client’s disappointed but glad not to have lost the dough. Thanks for backing me up, all!
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### Author:  [@choie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/choie)
#### Post date: [February 13, 2009, 6:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-this-sound-fishy-web-payment-poss-credit-card-scam/485406/17 "2009-02-13T06:54:00Z")
Sorry to bump this up, but today my client sent me a copy of the original email from “Antonio,” and I thought you guys would find it interesting.
> [@Antonio the scam artist](#):
>
> Hello, Am Antonio Pao Su,an American but recently relocated to Taiwan,i will like to get some items that will be shipped to Taiwan,i will be paying with US issued credit card,pls get back to me with your website address ,also let me know if you do accept credit card payment, if you cant ship directly,i have a shipper that can get this items to my doorstep.Thanks. Antonio
It’s amazing. Note how devoid it is of any details – it’s like a psychic’s cold reading. I’m sure the putz sent the message blindly to thousands of people, hoping to find someone who had something to sell.
Sure enough, my client responded to “Antonio” saying that perhaps he’d be interested in two of her titles (naming the books). And thus was the fish hooked. Did she question how he even knew who she was if he’d never been to her website? No. Sigh.
Well I thought this might be edifying, just in case someone else comes across an email like this in the future. At least this tale has a happy ending, unlike many others.
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### Author:  [@Cicero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cicero)
#### Post date: [February 13, 2009, 8:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-this-sound-fishy-web-payment-poss-credit-card-scam/485406/18 "2009-02-13T08:50:50Z")
Thanks Choie. Luckily for your employer you are a bit more suspicious than her.
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### Author:  [@Litoris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Litoris)
#### Post date: [February 13, 2009, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-this-sound-fishy-web-payment-poss-credit-card-scam/485406/19 "2009-02-13T14:43:26Z")
> [@choie](#):
>
> Sorry to bump this up, but today my client sent me a copy of the original email from “Antonio,” and I thought you guys would find it interesting.
>
> It’s amazing. Note how devoid it is of any details – it’s like a psychic’s cold reading. I’m sure the putz sent the message blindly to thousands of people, hoping to find someone who had something to sell.
>
> Sure enough, my client responded to “Antonio” saying that perhaps he’d be interested in two of her titles (naming the books). And thus was the fish hooked. Did she question how he even knew who she was if he’d never been to her website? No. Sigh.
>
> Well I thought this might be edifying, just in case someone else comes across an email like this in the future. At least this tale has a happy ending, unlike many others.
Sounds like your boss might need Net Nanny or something similar to keep her off teh intarwebz.
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### Author:  [@control-z](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/control-z)
#### Post date: [February 13, 2009, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-this-sound-fishy-web-payment-poss-credit-card-scam/485406/20 "2009-02-13T20:01:53Z")
Always ignore crazy-good orders from far-off places, especially when they involve out of the ordinary payment schemes.
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