# Does time exist? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 14, 2004, 3:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-time-exist/269146 "2004-10-14T03:08:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 19\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Lobsang](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobsang/32/4067_2.png) [@Lobsang](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobsang)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2004, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-time-exist/269146/21 "2004-10-14T18:02:38Z")
Just don’t go making any glass clocks. ---
**Author:** ![blowero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/41988e/32.png) [@blowero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blowero)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2004, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-time-exist/269146/22 "2004-10-14T18:08:19Z")
> [@Exapno Mapcase](#): > > This device is one of long-standing in sf stories. Probably the most famous use of it was the Tralfamadorians in Kurt Vonengut’s _Slaughterhouse Five_. Don’t forget the pilot episode of Deep Space Nine. (Actually, I wish I _could_ forget it.) ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2004, 11:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-time-exist/269146/23 "2004-10-14T23:49:30Z")
Well we certainly seem to _believe_ that time exists. You could consider it part of a broader question: Do **any** of the concepts we attribute to the universe exist objectively, or is the universe simply a random collection of data, with all meaning arising solely from human interpretation? I personally reject this; I challange anyone to stand in the middle of a freeway, watching a semitrailer speeding towards them, and insist that it’s only a human convention that an “object” is “moving” “towards” the observer. ---
**Author:** ![Mathochist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c89c15/32.png) [@Mathochist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mathochist)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2004, 2:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-time-exist/269146/24 "2004-10-15T02:21:23Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > logic is an a priori analytic entity Logic is an _a posteriori_ entity derived from the ambient topos. Classical logic derives from the assumption that the relevant topos for the mathematics describing the observed world which obtains is that of sets. I think it’s rather evident that this isn’t good enough for the real world, partly because of the notions of temporal logics (which as I pointed out destroy reductio arguments) and because at the very small scale the relevant logic is evidently quantum in nature; that is, more related to the subspaces of a Hilbert space than the (measurable) subsets of a set-theoretic universe. ---
**Author:** ![asterion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4da419/32.png) [@asterion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asterion)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2004, 3:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-time-exist/269146/25 "2004-10-15T03:24:08Z")
> [@continuity eror](#): > > Along these lines, there was a great short story by Ted Chiang called “Story of Your Life” about an alien race that saw the entire expanse of time at once. The aliens didn’t understand things like cause and effect, since to them both the cause and the effect had always been. It’s a really good story and has been serialized in a few places; it’s worth searching out. I don’t know about serializations, but I believe the short story is in _Year’s Best SF 4_. (And yes, I have a lot of those, because they make for great reading while traveling.) ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2004, 3:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-time-exist/269146/26 "2004-10-15T03:25:45Z")
I always understood that tie exists as it is linked to the Second Law of Thermodynamics. Basically that the Universe, overall, moves from low entropy to high entropy. As far as I know this is pretty much a one way street which gives you a “past” and “future”. Lower entropy in the past. Higher entropy in the future. Time as us humans view it however is offbase. There is no absolute frame of reference for measuring time such that two observers may measure it passing at different rates. They will, however, agree on the direction time moves. ---
**Author:** ![FriendRob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ecc23a/32.png) [@FriendRob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriendRob)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2004, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-time-exist/269146/27 "2004-10-15T17:38:04Z")
> [@Mathochist](#): > > Problem: Temporological topoi generally have Heyting algebra semantics which violate the law of the excluded middle, thus invalidating reductios. I wish I’d said that. ---
**Author:** ![Who\_me\_1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/958977/32.png) [@Who\_me\_1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Who_me_1)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2004, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-time-exist/269146/28 "2004-10-15T20:50:07Z")
> [@FriendRob](#): > > > [@Mathochist](#): > > > > Problem: Temporological topoi generally have Heyting algebra semantics which violate the law of the excluded middle, thus invalidating reductios. > > I wish I’d said that. I wish I understood it… ---
**Author:** ![clayton\_e](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c57346/32.png) [@clayton\_e](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clayton_e)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2004, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-time-exist/269146/29 "2004-10-15T20:53:54Z")
Eh, I used to believe in time but I don’t anymore. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Ponder\_Stibbons](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ponder_stibbons/32/343_2.png) [@Ponder\_Stibbons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ponder_Stibbons)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2004, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-time-exist/269146/30 "2004-10-15T21:55:14Z")
> [@Who\_me?](#): > > > [@FriendRob](#): > > > > > [@Mathochist](#): > > > > > > Problem: Temporological topoi generally have Heyting algebra semantics which violate the law of the excluded middle, thus invalidating reductios. > > > > I wish I’d said that. > > I wish I understood it… I wish I’d been able to finish the sentence. ---
**Author:** ![Mathochist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c89c15/32.png) [@Mathochist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mathochist)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2004, 11:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-time-exist/269146/31 "2004-10-15T23:38:10Z")
> [@Who\_me?](#): > > I wish I understood it… The problem is that **Liberal** wants to use a notion of logic connected with time to make his argument. Ignoring the obvious objection that he may be begging the question, his argument is a “reduction to absurdity”: an disproof of the negation of what he wants to prove. In classical logic this is a common valid technique, since (not (not P)) is equivalent to P, so disproving (not P) is equivalent to proving P. In a temporal logic, however, (not (not P)) is generally _different_ from P, so reductions to absurdity aren’t valid arguments. ---
**Author:** ![erislover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/71e660/32.png) [@erislover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/erislover)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2004, 12:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-time-exist/269146/32 "2004-10-16T00:16:13Z")
There is no choice but to assert (implicitly: begging the question; or explicitly), or deny real existence, to fundamental entities. There is nothing one may derive them from, else they are not fundamental. For most, time is a fundamental thing. It is not derived from something else. I see no evidence to the contrary here. ---
**Author:** ![Mathochist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c89c15/32.png) [@Mathochist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mathochist)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2004, 12:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-time-exist/269146/33 "2004-10-16T00:24:31Z")
> [@erislover](#): > > There is no choice but to assert (implicitly: begging the question; or explicitly), or deny real existence, to fundamental entities. There is nothing one may derive them from, else they are not fundamental. For most, time is a fundamental thing. It is not derived from something else. I see no evidence to the contrary here. Well, as I said, there’s a group in Toronto deriving the spacetime manifold as an epiphenomenon of a spin-network, and there are other groups considering “Minkowskian manifold objects” in topos theory. I don’t think the evidence us all in on either side of the debate. ---
**Author:** ![erislover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/71e660/32.png) [@erislover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/erislover)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2004, 12:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-time-exist/269146/34 "2004-10-16T00:33:12Z")
I’m not a scientific realist (which, hilariously, is a form of idealism, but let’s not trouble ourselves with labels), so science is not as metaphysically persuasive to me as it might be to some. Sounds like a fun theory. 😛 ---
**Author:** ![devilsknew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4da419/32.png) [@devilsknew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/devilsknew)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2004, 8:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-time-exist/269146/35 "2004-10-17T08:30:30Z")
This is the most eloquent and meaningful comment on time’s existence as it applies to the human condition and our reality that I know of. [_“And this too shall pass.”_](http://www.wscribe.com/parables/pass.html) ---
**Author:** ![spingears](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ebca7d/32.png) [@spingears](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/spingears)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2004, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-time-exist/269146/36 "2004-10-17T16:53:40Z")
> [@devilsknew](#): > > This is the most eloquent and meaningful comment on time’s existence as it applies to the human condition and our reality that I know of.[_“And this too shall pass.”_](http://www.wscribe.com/parables/pass.html) Right on! Philosophical debates amount to “philosophers throwing dust into the air.” [Philosphers Throwing Dust](http://www.nyx.net/~jkalb/absolute.html) ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2004, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-time-exist/269146/37 "2004-10-17T17:35:58Z")
Does time exist? Yes. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2004, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-time-exist/269146/38 "2004-10-18T16:56:44Z")
Hey, wouldja look at that! **Space** exists too! 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![TwistofFate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/cdc98d/32.png) [@TwistofFate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TwistofFate)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2004, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-time-exist/269146/39 "2004-10-18T17:03:37Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Hey, wouldja look at that! **Space** exists too! 🙂 wow, does that mean that time and space are relative to your screen resolution? 😃 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-time-exist/269146.md?page=1)