# Does torture "work?" (poll for Debates thread) **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [April 19, 2016, 3:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-torture-work-poll-for-debates-thread/752617 "2016-04-19T03:07:11Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2016, 3:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-torture-work-poll-for-debates-thread/752617/1 "2016-04-19T03:07:11Z")
Since it’s not possible to post a thread in GD, and since the opinions in the “[Torture Doesn’t Work](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=788804)” thread in GD were all over the place, I decided to start a thread here that is just for polling, not really for debating. In this thread, “Work” is defined as “Getting truthful information from someone.” Whether other, non-violent methods of interrogation get information or not is irrelevant; since the GD thread was about torture specifically, this thread will only ask whether torture works in and of itself, not in comparison to other methods. Whether a torture subject gives out other false information is irrelevant as well - this thread is about whether _the total sum of information given out by a subject contains truthful information_ - be it sandwiched by false information or not. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2016, 3:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-torture-work-poll-for-debates-thread/752617/2 "2016-04-19T03:44:01Z")
A really small minority of the time…but greater than zero, so option two. Astrology also works now and then, by simple random chance. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2016, 3:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-torture-work-poll-for-debates-thread/752617/3 "2016-04-19T03:53:30Z")
Again, that someone can win the lotto is a given, that a good number of people gets the illusion that we should use it as an investment tool is silly as the evidence shows. IMHO your poll needed another entry: [ul] [li]No, it rarely does. [/li][/ul] As that is missing I had to vote for the most negative choice, as in “No, never” as it is the closest to what was pointed at by the evidence that tell us that “It doesn’t work because it is extremely inefficient and, in many ways, counterproductive.” ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2016, 4:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-torture-work-poll-for-debates-thread/752617/4 "2016-04-19T04:16:44Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > Whether a torture subject gives out other false information is irrelevant as well - this thread is about whether _the total sum of information given out by a subject contains truthful information_ - be it sandwiched by false information or not. This qualification pretty much makes your poll a non-starter. Torture doesn’t “work” if you can’t tell which part of the information is true, and which is false. Any choice I might make among the ones you provide would be misleading as to my actual opinion, so there’s no point in voting. I would suggest you ask this one be closed and put some more thought into the choices offered. ---
**Author:** ![Ranchoth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ranchoth/32/1066_2.png) [@Ranchoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ranchoth)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2016, 4:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-torture-work-poll-for-debates-thread/752617/5 "2016-04-19T04:45:07Z")
I don’t see an option for “I don’t know—I don’t think there’s been any kind of proper, thorough, scientifically rigorous study on the matter.” I mean, define “torture.” The rack? Sleep deprivation? Drugs? Electrocution? Finding out what the subject is most afraid of, and sticking them in a bucket of it? Zapping their brain with EM fields until they start seeing the shadow demons from “Ghost” clawing at them? What’s the OBJECT of the torture—information? Detailed information? A confession? A “confession”? Is a “partial” success considered better than nothing? What kind of subject is being tortured? A brainwashed religious fanatic? An out-and-out psychopath? Just some regular person, but who happens to be on “the other side”? What kind of _combinations_ of those factors are you working with? Will torture method “A” work on subject types “E” and “F,” under circumstance “Y,” but not under circumstance “Z,” or subject type “D” under any circumstance—but for the latter, method “B” will? Would you be able to quantify torture effectiveness/failure rates into numbers that could be relied on, when trying to decide on if it would be worth attempting? Or, more importantly, if the torture meets a simple cost/benefit analysis? Time and money, if nothing else, have a concrete value. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2016, 5:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-torture-work-poll-for-debates-thread/752617/6 "2016-04-19T05:32:04Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > Whether a torture subject gives out other false information is irrelevant as well - this thread is about whether _the total sum of information given out by a subject contains truthful information_ - be it sandwiched by false information or not. By that definition, a stopped clock works. ---
**Author:** ![Melisande](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/dec6dc/32.png) [@Melisande](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Melisande)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2016, 5:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-torture-work-poll-for-debates-thread/752617/7 "2016-04-19T05:56:25Z")
Yes, but it’s not much use if you can’t tell the true from the false. Half truths cause more confusion than outright falsehoods. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Ace](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/6bbea6/32.png) [@Johnny\_Ace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Ace)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2016, 7:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-torture-work-poll-for-debates-thread/752617/8 "2016-04-19T07:48:49Z")
“If you f\_\_\_ing beat this prick long enough, he’ll tell you he started the goddamn Chicago fire, now that don’t necessarily make it f\_\_\_ing so!” ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2016, 8:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-torture-work-poll-for-debates-thread/752617/9 "2016-04-19T08:16:33Z")
“The barbarous custom of having men beaten who are suspected of having important secrets to reveal must be abolished. It has always been recognized that this way of interrogating men, by putting them to torture, produces nothing worthwhile. The poor wretches say anything that comes into their mind and what they think the interrogator wishes to know.” -Napoleon Bonaparte ---
**Author:** ![Ambivalid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a5b964/32.png) [@Ambivalid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ambivalid)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2016, 10:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-torture-work-poll-for-debates-thread/752617/10 "2016-04-19T10:52:34Z")
> [@Johnny\_Ace](#): > > “If you f\_\_\_ing beat this prick long enough, he’ll tell you he started the goddamn Chicago fire, now that don’t necessarily make it f\_\_\_ing so!” Thank you for censoring this. We’re all dignified people here, no need to use boorish language. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Kobayashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4af34b/32.png) [@Mr.Kobayashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Kobayashi)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2016, 11:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-torture-work-poll-for-debates-thread/752617/11 "2016-04-19T11:26:58Z")
Never say never, but the results are far too inconsistent to place any reliance on them. Or, as the director of [MI5 in WWII](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/London_Cage#Torture_allegations) put it, _“Apart from the moral aspects of the thing, I am convinced that these Gestapo methods do not pay in the long run.”_ ---
**Author:** ![TokyoBayer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tokyobayer/32/13989_2.png) [@TokyoBayer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TokyoBayer)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2016, 11:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-torture-work-poll-for-debates-thread/752617/12 "2016-04-19T11:35:55Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > Whether a torture subject gives out other false information is irrelevant as well - this thread is about whether _the total sum of information given out by a subject contains truthful information_ - be it sandwiched by false information or not. If a person lies 99.99% of the time, but tells the truth 0.01% of the time, and you cannot distinguish between the truth and false information, your poll would still require one to answer “Yes, part of the time” which is ludicrous. I didn’t vote. ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2016, 11:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-torture-work-poll-for-debates-thread/752617/13 "2016-04-19T11:39:37Z")
I’ll be straight up honest about it. If torture is on the table, I’ll tell you whatever it is you want to know. Now put away those slivers of bamboo and let’s talk. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Stainless\_Steel\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_stainless_steel_rat/32/5727_2.png) [@The\_Stainless\_Steel\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Stainless_Steel_Rat)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2016, 11:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-torture-work-poll-for-debates-thread/752617/14 "2016-04-19T11:50:07Z")
Poorly designed poll with way too few options, IMHO. Given what we had, I took the “occasional” middle ground, since _in certain specific circumstances_ it probably would be effective. Those circumstances would be: 1. You KNOW without a shadow of a doubt that the prisoner has the information that you want AND you can immediately test to see if the answer is correct (i.e., a password to unlock a computer right in front of you). 2. You couldn’t give a damn if what the person says is true or not, as long as they eventually will say what you want them to say…see the 16-17th century witch trials and more modern ‘brainwashing’. But as a general method of extracting information from a populace when you don’t know who knows what…not effective at all. IMHO. YMMV. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2016, 1:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-torture-work-poll-for-debates-thread/752617/15 "2016-04-19T13:51:17Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > A really small minority of the time…but greater than zero, so option two. > > Astrology also works now and then, by simple random chance. Are you saying that torture only works by random chance? Are you saying that a torture victim might just say some random shit about a terrorist plot that he knows nothing about but just happens to turn out to be correct? Because if not, then its not like astrology. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2016, 1:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-torture-work-poll-for-debates-thread/752617/16 "2016-04-19T13:57:00Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > Again, that someone can win the lotto is a given, that a good number of people gets the illusion that we should use it as an investment tool is silly as the evidence shows. > > IMHO your poll needed another entry: > > [ul] > [li]No, it rarely does. [/li][/ul] > > As that is missing I had to vote for the most negative choice, as in “No, never” as it is the closest to what was pointed at by the evidence that tell us that “It doesn’t work because it is extremely inefficient and, in many ways, counterproductive.” BTW, that statement “It doesn’t work because it is extremely inefficient and, in many ways, counterproductive” is opinion, not facts and barely even evidence. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2016, 1:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-torture-work-poll-for-debates-thread/752617/17 "2016-04-19T13:58:03Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > This qualification pretty much makes your poll a non-starter. Torture doesn’t “work” if you can’t tell which part of the information is true, and which is false. > > Any choice I might make among the ones you provide would be misleading as to my actual opinion, so there’s no point in voting. > > I would suggest you ask this one be closed and put some more thought into the choices offered. How can you tell which information is true and which information is false when it is supplied by a non-tortured terrorist? ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2016, 1:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-torture-work-poll-for-debates-thread/752617/18 "2016-04-19T13:59:26Z")
> [@Melisande](#): > > Yes, but it’s not much use if you can’t tell the true from the false. Half truths cause more confusion than outright falsehoods. And how do you do that with information gathered from non-torture interrogations of terrorists? ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2016, 2:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-torture-work-poll-for-debates-thread/752617/19 "2016-04-19T14:15:05Z")
> [@The\_Stainless\_Steel\_Rat](#): > > Poorly designed poll with way too few options, IMHO. > > Given what we had, I took the “occasional” middle ground, since _in certain specific circumstances_ it probably would be effective. > > Those circumstances would be: > > 1. You KNOW without a shadow of a doubt that the prisoner has the information that you want AND you can immediately test to see if the answer is correct (i.e., a password to unlock a computer right in front of you). > > 2. You couldn’t give a damn if what the person says is true or not, as long as they eventually will say what you want them to say…see the 16-17th century witch trials and more modern ‘brainwashing’. > > But as a general method of extracting information from a populace when you don’t know who knows what…not effective at all. > > IMHO. YMMV. Torture is more effective in some situations than others. And it would be immoral to use torture before asking nicely. But the notion that torture is ineffective because we can’t really rely on the information is a bad argument. We can’t ever really rely on information given to us by terrorists. Torture is not particularly effective for fishing expeditions but if you are going to use it for a fishing expedition, your job isn’t to figure out what is true and untrue. If you are doing it right, the victim should be trying to convince YOU that what they are telling you is the truth. Then you can check some of it out but its not like they just say some shit and you send a dozen squad cars to go check it out. Torture leads to more false positives. The lack of torture can in some cases lead to false negatives. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2016, 2:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-torture-work-poll-for-debates-thread/752617/20 "2016-04-19T14:26:04Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Torture leads to more false positives. The lack of torture can in some cases lead to false negatives. Here is the main issue, this ignores willfully that the \*\*presence \*\*of torture leads in many cases to false negatives. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-torture-work-poll-for-debates-thread/752617.md?page=2)