# Does torture "work?" (poll for Debates thread) **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [April 19, 2016, 3:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-torture-work-poll-for-debates-thread/752617 "2016-04-19T03:07:11Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2016, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-torture-work-poll-for-debates-thread/752617/21 "2016-04-19T14:28:43Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > BTW, that statement “It doesn’t work because it is extremely inefficient and, in many ways, counterproductive” is opinion, not facts and barely even evidence. The reality is that you are ignoring that in the original thread Politifact based that in facts and history, you are the ones that willfully ignores not only history, but that what the OP did say is not pulled out of thin air as you wishfully believe. > **[Evidence backs Hillary Clinton claim that torture is counterproductive for...](https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2016/mar/30/hillary-clinton/evidence-backs-hillary-clinton-claim-torture-count/)** > > The day after the March 22 terrorist attack in Brussels, former Secretary of State and Democratic presidential candidate > [@](#): > > **Evidence backs Hillary Clinton claim that torture is counterproductive for counterterrorism** > [@](#): > > Before the invasion of Iraq, the Bush administration said it had “information that Iraq had been training al-Qaida operatives in the use of chemical weapons, thus connecting Iraq to 9/11,” said Hajjar in a review article in the Annual Review of Law and Social Science. “This information was extracted by torture from a Libyan prisoner, Ibn al-Shaykh al-Libi, who subsequently recanted the lies he had told interrogators to make the pain stop.” > > Bad truth detectors > > Interrogators aren’t particularly good at telling when someone under torture is lying or telling the truth. > > “Interrogators in these situations think they’re perfect lie detectors but research tells us quite differently,” said Darius Rejali, a torture expert at Reed College in Oregon. Special training programs designed to enhance that ability “make the interrogators more confident that they can detect the truth, but in fact they would be better off flipping a coin.” > > In the current war on terror, consider the case of Hassan Ghul. After his capture, he was cooperative without being tortured and provided information key to finding Osama bin Laden through bin Laden’s associate, Abu Ahmad al-Kuwaiti. But after he cooperated, the CIA decided to torture Ghul anyway. It produced no useful additional intelligence. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Ace](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/6bbea6/32.png) [@Johnny\_Ace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Ace)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2016, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-torture-work-poll-for-debates-thread/752617/22 "2016-04-19T16:15:07Z")
> [@Ambivalid](#): > > Thank you for censoring this. We’re all dignified people here, no need to use boorish language. 🙂 Yeah, it’s hard to avoid it with Tarantino, and I have a particular dislike for that word. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Inigo\_Montoya](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inigo_montoya/32/124_2.png) [@Inigo\_Montoya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inigo_Montoya)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2016, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-torture-work-poll-for-debates-thread/752617/23 "2016-04-19T16:56:05Z")
> [@kayaker](#): > > I’ll be straight up honest about it. If torture is on the table, I’ll tell you whatever it is you want to know. Now put away those slivers of bamboo and let’s talk. This. But then again, I don’t have any information worth hiding. If you start in with the bamboo to the eyes or rending of limbs anyway, you’ll get some really creative statements from me. ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2016, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-torture-work-poll-for-debates-thread/752617/24 "2016-04-19T17:29:42Z")
When the French destroyed the Knights Templars, the Templar treasurer was quoted as saying, “Under such torture, I would have confessed to killing God.” ---
**Author:** ![Skammer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skammer/32/143_2.png) [@Skammer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skammer)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2016, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-torture-work-poll-for-debates-thread/752617/25 "2016-04-19T17:38:57Z")
Given the limited options in the poll, torture will, at least sometimes, elicit truthful information from someone. I dispute the notion that it means torture “works;” since you can’t always tell what’s true and what’s not, or what else is being withheld. Not to mention torturing your enemies is a great way to earn more enemies, and ones who will be reluctant to be captured alive. It’s not worth it. So can it reveal truthful information? Sometimes yes. Is it worth it? Almost always, no. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2016, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-torture-work-poll-for-debates-thread/752617/26 "2016-04-19T18:30:19Z")
A broken clock tells the right time twice a day. But no one would say it thus “works”. The few times torture produced results are so rare that to say it ‘works’ is false. And, even when it appeared to have worked, every time the intel coudl have been gotten by a less drastic way. Finally, even if it does 'work" one time in a hundred, the other 99 times you are: 1. ruining your interrogators. 2. Wasting time and effort chasing down false leads. 3. NOT getting the intel you would have gotten, due to the victims clamming up. 4. Hardening the hearts of your foes. \*So it’s incredibly counter-productive. \* By that, it doesnt 'work". A rather poorly worded poll, I am sorry to say. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2016, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-torture-work-poll-for-debates-thread/752617/27 "2016-04-19T18:33:57Z")
> [@Skammer](#): > > Given the limited options in the poll, torture will, at least sometimes, elicit truthful information from someone. I dispute the notion that it means torture “works;” since you can’t always tell what’s true and what’s not, or what else is being withheld. Not to mention torturing your enemies is a great way to earn more enemies, and ones who will be reluctant to be captured alive. It’s not worth it. > > So can it reveal truthful information? Sometimes yes. Is it worth it? Almost always, no. Right. A honest person would have to answer “sometimes” but that’s due to how the poll is worded. It’s _never_ productive. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2016, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-torture-work-poll-for-debates-thread/752617/28 "2016-04-19T18:35:18Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > BTW, that statement “It doesn’t work because it is extremely inefficient and, in many ways, counterproductive” is opinion, not facts and barely even evidence. We have given you 30 or so cites showing that torture is “extremely inefficient and, in many ways, counterproductive”, so it’s not just opinion. It’s a fact. ---
**Author:** ![dracoi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/90db22/32.png) [@dracoi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dracoi)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2016, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-torture-work-poll-for-debates-thread/752617/29 "2016-04-19T18:38:19Z")
I’m willing to say it sometimes works. Also, the line as to what constitutes torture seems a very blurry one to me. Even a standard criminal plea bargain (something like revealing the names of co-conspirators for a shortened sentence) is torture in the sense that not revealing that information would lead to a longer prison sentence. You have still used a threat of physical confinement to coerce information. So I think the question needs to be reframed so that we’re not talking about “torture” as if all methods are equivalent. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2016, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-torture-work-poll-for-debates-thread/752617/30 "2016-04-19T18:45:07Z")
I ignored the conditions described in the body of the OP because they are nonsensical. By any sane interpretation of the question, torture does not work, and so that’s what I answered. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2016, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-torture-work-poll-for-debates-thread/752617/31 "2016-04-19T18:47:37Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > I ignored the conditions described in the body of the OP because they are nonsensical. By any sane interpretation of the question, torture does not work, and so that’s what I answered. Yes, and this completely useless poll will now be used by the Pro-torture crowd to prove something. ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2016, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-torture-work-poll-for-debates-thread/752617/32 "2016-04-19T18:49:51Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Yes, and this completely useless poll will now be used by the Pro-torture crowd to prove something. There’s a pro-torture crowd? For reals? ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2016, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-torture-work-poll-for-debates-thread/752617/33 "2016-04-19T19:18:05Z")
> [@kayaker](#): > > There’s a pro-torture crowd? > > For reals? Read **Damuri Ajashi** posts. ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2016, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-torture-work-poll-for-debates-thread/752617/34 "2016-04-19T19:24:45Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Read **Damuri Ajashi** posts. **Damuri** , what say you? Are you pro-torture? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2016, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-torture-work-poll-for-debates-thread/752617/35 "2016-04-19T19:33:04Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > I ignored the conditions described in the body of the OP because they are nonsensical. By any sane interpretation of the question, torture does not work, and so that’s what I answered. So, it does not work by definition. Very convenient. ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2016, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-torture-work-poll-for-debates-thread/752617/36 "2016-04-19T20:24:18Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > So, it does not work by definition. Very convenient. No, so it does not work by any standard which would not state that a hundred monkeys bashing away on a hundred typewriters “works” to produce the complete works of Shakespeare. ---
**Author:** ![astorian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ad7895/32.png) [@astorian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astorian)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2016, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-torture-work-poll-for-debates-thread/752617/37 "2016-04-19T21:48:10Z")
It can work if the torturer correctly believes his victim has very specific knowledge. But if the victim doesn’t know anything, or knows far less than the torturer believes, he’s going to tell the torturer anything he imagines the torturer wants to hear- true or not. ---
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2016, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-torture-work-poll-for-debates-thread/752617/38 "2016-04-19T22:34:33Z")
There are various things to consider on the issue. 1. Because the vast majority of people are morally opposed to torture, they will want to believe it doesn’t work. This desire is going to cause people to selectively reason to support the argument against torture. 2. What the US did as far as torture isn’t really that severe on a global or historical scale. Sending people’s children to concentration camps like North Korea does is far more severe than anything the US is willing to do. One person discussing the US’s torture process said ‘that barely counts as torture in the middle east’. Which is probably true. It is still torture but it isn’t as intense as what other nations do. 3. A big advantage of torture isn’t gaining information, it is to deter people from opposing the government. Knowledge that a person or their loved ones would face severe torture helps to prevent rebellion against an unjust government. So in that regards, torture does work pretty well. If it didn’t, then tons of nations wouldn’t have all come to the same conclusion to use it for this purpose. ---
**Author:** ![Melisande](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/dec6dc/32.png) [@Melisande](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Melisande)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2016, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-torture-work-poll-for-debates-thread/752617/39 "2016-04-19T22:52:59Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > And how do you do that with information gathered from non-torture interrogations of terrorists? Some people may never be reliable sources of information. But if someone is cooperating willingly with you, then they are more likely to tell the truth. If there are any inconsistencies in their story they can be meaningfully investigated. Torture assumes people are lying, so inconsistencies are expected and not meaningful. Victims have no incentive to tell the truth because it doesn’t gain them anything. They have no trust in their captors or long term goals beyond getting the torture to stop. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2016, 12:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-torture-work-poll-for-debates-thread/752617/40 "2016-04-20T00:00:31Z")
> [@astorian](#): > > It can work if the torturer correctly believes his victim has very specific knowledge. > > But if the victim doesn’t know anything, or knows far less than the torturer believes, he’s going to tell the torturer anything he imagines the torturer wants to hear- true or not. If the victim doesn’t know anything, then nothing works. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-torture-work-poll-for-debates-thread/752617.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-torture-work-poll-for-debates-thread/752617.md?page=3)