# Does torture work? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 25, 2005, 4:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-torture-work/309770 "2005-06-25T04:37:39Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2005, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-torture-work/309770/61 "2005-06-26T17:01:16Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > I just can not see why the proven ineffective torture of assumed witches can be dismissed as not relevant… Or it is only because you assume it does not happen today? You are not aware of people recently killed in Africa for witchcraft? Guess how did they get their confessions? Because the torturing of people on witchcraft charges to gain confessions does not encompass the whole of torture, simply one narror aspect. I make no assumptions that this isn’t still done in modern times at all…all I’m saying is that you can’t focus on such a narrow aspect of anything, disprove it, then say ‘well, this disproves it all!’. Thats why its a strawman on your part. > [@GIGObuster](#): > > As for how effective torture is nowadays I can grant you something: it is effective for other dastardly reasons: And yet, again, they do not claim that all forms of torture are completely ineffective, merely that some are pretty horrible and immoral. > [@GIGObuster](#): > > However xtisme, if you are really claiming here that torture is effective in some forms, it is you who is narrowing the debate. It is you who has to show the evidence. I’m not narrowing the debate by saying you have to look at all aspects instead of one narrow one. Thats you, reguardless of how you are trying to spin this. If you want to prove that torture doesn’t work then you need to addres all forms of torture, not just physically abusive torture used to force confessions. Even the professional interrigator types generally acknowledge that this doesn’t work so…you are oriented on a position that is ALREADY generally acknowledged not to work. You are wrong btw…its not I who has to DIS-prove that torture in any form doesn’t work (or to prove it does)…its those who are making the claim that torture doesn’t work who need to provide some proof that it doesnt’…and proof that NO form of torture works. So far I’ve seen nothing but a few cites that seem mostly based on anacedote of various military men remembering past experiences…and they haven’t exactly been indepth analysis of all the various aspects of torture…more like soundbites to me, carefully selected to make the author of the articles point. However, if you claim that anacedotes are acceptable as proof then I’m sure I can dig up an anacedote or two out there on the web somewhere of someone claiming that in his/her experience tortured obtained the information they were going after. IS anacedote acceptable? -XT ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2005, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-torture-work/309770/62 "2005-06-26T17:05:32Z")
> [@](#): > > Culture has everything to do with everything. If the torturers don’t understand the culture, they will ask the wrong questions, misinterpret the answers, and in general get the wrong idea entirely. Is anyone now thinking about anthropology students descending on native villages armed with surveys and cattle prods? “What are the traditional roles in your society for unmarried women?” “I’ll never tell you!” zzzzzz “Aaaaa! Alright I’ll talk! Unmarried women often find jobs as caretakers for young children!” “LIAR! You expect me to believe women act as caretakers in a patriarchal agragarian society like this!” zzzzzz “AAAAAAA! Please…I swear…we’ve only just made the transition to agriculture from hunting and gathering…we haven’t had time to abandon our traditional ways!” “Listen you little worm, don’t try to tell me about transitional societies. I did an entire semester on transitional societies. Now start telling me the truth because I’ve got a thesis due and I’m not a patient man.” ---
**Author:** ![Shalmanese](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/45deac/32.png) [@Shalmanese](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shalmanese)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2005, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-torture-work/309770/63 "2005-06-26T17:30:50Z")
> [@Little Nemo](#): > > Is anyone now thinking about anthropology students descending on native villages armed with surveys and cattle prods? > > “What are the traditional roles in your society for unmarried women?” > “I’ll never tell you!” zzzzzz “Aaaaa! Alright I’ll talk! Unmarried women often find jobs as caretakers for young children!” > “LIAR! You expect me to believe women act as caretakers in a patriarchal agragarian society like this!” zzzzzz > “AAAAAAA! Please…I swear…we’ve only just made the transition to agriculture from hunting and gathering…we haven’t had time to abandon our traditional ways!” > “Listen you little worm, don’t try to tell me about transitional societies. I did an entire semester on transitional societies. Now start telling me the truth because I’ve got a thesis due and I’m not a patient man.” ahahaha, that was beautiful **Nemo**. But theres nothing cultural about “What is your commander’s name?” or “How many guns do you have” or “What object do you plan on attacking on Friday Night”. These are all **factual** questions. You can either answer correctly or answer incorrectly. Theres no room for culture to creep into it. ---
**Author:** ![Shalmanese](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/45deac/32.png) [@Shalmanese](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shalmanese)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2005, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-torture-work/309770/64 "2005-06-26T17:32:50Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > Your margin-of-error is showing… Yes, that’s why I’ve made it clear that all 3 conditions must hold for this technique to be valid. But say you capture someone hiding in a terrorist bunker surrounded by multiple RPG’s and a terrorist training manual… you can be pretty sure they’re a terrorist then. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2005, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-torture-work/309770/65 "2005-06-26T17:55:38Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > You are wrong btw…its not I who has to DIS-prove that torture in any form doesn’t work (or to prove it does)…its those who are making the claim that torture doesn’t work who need to provide some proof that it doesnt’…and proof that NO form of torture works. So far I’ve seen nothing but a few cites that seem mostly based on anacedote of various military men remembering past experiences…and they haven’t exactly been indepth analysis of all the various aspects of torture…more like soundbites to me, carefully selected to make the author of the articles point. > > However, if you claim that anacedotes are acceptable as proof then I’m sure I can dig up an anacedote or two out there on the web somewhere of someone claiming that in his/her experience tortured obtained the information they were going after. IS anacedote acceptable? > > -XT You keep saying anecdotes… I don’t think I only posted that before: > [@](#): > > Yet despite this body of knowledge, torture continues to be debated in the United States as if it were merely a morally questionable way to extract information, not an instrument of state terror. But there’s a problem: No one claims that torture is an effective interrogation tool–least of all the people who practice it. Torture “doesn’t work. There are better ways to deal with captives,” CIA director Porter Goss told the Senate Intelligence Committee on February 16. And a recently declassified memo written by an FBI official in Guantánamo states that extreme coercion produced “nothing more than what FBI got using simple investigative techniques.” The Army’s own interrogation field manual states that force “can induce the source to say whatever he thinks the interrogator wants to hear.” ---
**Author:** ![Frankenstein\_Monster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ccd318/32.png) [@Frankenstein\_Monster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frankenstein_Monster)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2005, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-torture-work/309770/66 "2005-06-26T17:58:09Z")
> [@Shalmanese](#): > > But theres nothing cultural about “What is your commander’s name?” or “How many guns do you have” or “What object do you plan on attacking on Friday Night”. These are all **factual** questions. You can either answer correctly or answer incorrectly. Theres no room for culture to creep into it. Your cultural bias is already showing, even though (I assume) this is just a simple example you constructed off the cuff. Terrorist cells do not necessarily have “commanders”. I read somewhere that the idea that the Iraq insurgency has a “central command headquarters” and “hierarchical command structure” was precisely one of the great wrong ideas that the Americans had about them. “What is your commander’s name?” is a meaningless question to ask in a [bazaar-style organization](http://globalguerrillas.typepad.com/globalguerrillas/2004/07/the_bazaar_of_v.html) and the answer will be meaningless if not wrong. From reading the papers I don’t think “How many guns do you have” would be a meaningful question to ask of a terrorist. The country is littered with guns. The terrorist might know of many odd piles of different kinds of guns in varying conditions. “What object do you plan on attacking on Friday Night” sounds like an especially dangerous [leading question](http://www.busreslab.com/tips/tip34.htm) to ask in an interrogation situation. ---
**Author:** ![wevets](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e9a140/32.png) [@wevets](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wevets)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2005, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-torture-work/309770/67 "2005-06-26T18:01:55Z")
> [@clairobscur](#): > > I don’t think you got what I mean. If you, who (I assume) never tortured anybody can think about the possible shortcoming of torture, don’t you think that someone who’s accustomed to use it, and probably also trained before that, will be at least as able as you are to notice them and to use it in a thoughtful way? Except if you assume that any torturer will be a brainless fool. Can we safely paraphrase what you’re saying as “We can’t say how they do it effectively, but torturers have experience at torturing, so they must know how to do it effectively.” I hope you’ll forgive me if I think this line of arguement is less than convincing. ---
**Author:** ![Shalmanese](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/45deac/32.png) [@Shalmanese](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shalmanese)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2005, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-torture-work/309770/68 "2005-06-26T18:11:31Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > You keep saying anecdotes… I don’t think I only posted that before: I think we’re only likely to hear one side of the issue on this. People are far more likely to say “I was involved in illegal torture and I now regret it because it didn’t work” than “I was involved in illegal torture and I regret nothing because it was very effective”. Another thing to consider is that perhaps we just haven’t tortured enough people. Torturers need to be trained like any other profession. It’s probable that someone who has tortured every day for 30 years is going to extract far better results than a rank amatuer. Given the lack of experienced torturers in the US army, this might also skew experience. ---
**Author:** ![wevets](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e9a140/32.png) [@wevets](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wevets)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2005, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-torture-work/309770/69 "2005-06-26T18:12:19Z")
> [@Shalmanese](#): > > What does culture and belief have to do with anything? I’m only concerned here with verifiable facts and hard data. A torture victim, assuming he is a terrorist, can only say 2 things, something which is true or something which is false. Theres no “what he wants to hear” stuff in here. In science, I’m only concerned with verifiable facts and hard data. A scientist can only say 2 things, something which is true or something which is false. There’s no “what he wants to hear” stuff in there. [Oh… maybe there is such a thing as human bias](http://skepdic.com/blondlot.html) [and it crops up in very objective activities](http://www.williamjames.com/Science/ERR.htm). In an ideal world, perhaps we could expect torturers to ask non-leading questions and not have any preconcieved notions. But in an ideal world, why would we need to torture anyone? ---
**Author:** ![Shalmanese](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/45deac/32.png) [@Shalmanese](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shalmanese)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2005, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-torture-work/309770/70 "2005-06-26T18:18:20Z")
> [@Frankenstein Monster](#): > > Your cultural bias is already showing, even though (I assume) this is just a simple example you constructed off the cuff. > > Terrorist cells do not necessarily have “commanders”. I read somewhere that the idea that the Iraq insurgency has a “central command headquarters” and “hierarchical command structure” was precisely one of the great wrong ideas that the Americans had about them. “What is your commander’s name?” is a meaningless question to ask in a [bazaar-style organization](http://globalguerrillas.typepad.com/globalguerrillas/2004/07/the_bazaar_of_v.html) and the answer will be meaningless if not wrong. > > From reading the papers I don’t think “How many guns do you have” would be a meaningful question to ask of a terrorist. The country is littered with guns. The terrorist might know of many odd piles of different kinds of guns in varying conditions. > > “What object do you plan on attacking on Friday Night” sounds like an especially dangerous [leading question](http://www.busreslab.com/tips/tip34.htm) to ask in an interrogation situation. Yes, obviously I’m not an iraqi expert. However, your missing the point that we **know** the answer to a lot of these questions and we are using them as probes. Obviously, if I were an actual, competant, torturer, I would have a fairly good idea about the structure of their terrorist cells. I might choose to ask this question anyway to see if they respond correctly. If they say “John is the commander” then they are probably lying for all the other questions and they get a beating. If they say “There is no commander, we are run in a bazaar like structure”, then he might be telling the truth for the other questions as well. The point is, despite how erronenous the actual questions are, as long as they have a clearly defined right and wrong answer, they are still useful. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2005, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-torture-work/309770/71 "2005-06-26T18:29:28Z")
> [@Shalmanese](#): > > Another thing to consider is that perhaps we just haven’t tortured enough people. This is possibly the single most disgusting thing I’ve seen on these boards in a very long time. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2005, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-torture-work/309770/72 "2005-06-26T18:29:29Z")
> [@Shalmanese](#): > > Another thing to consider is that perhaps we just haven’t tortured enough people. This is possibly the single most disgusting thing I’ve seen on these boards in a very long time. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2005, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-torture-work/309770/73 "2005-06-26T18:30:08Z")
> [@Shalmanese](#): > > Another thing to consider is that perhaps we just haven’t tortured enough people. This is possibly the single most disgusting thing I’ve seen on these boards in a very long time. ---
**Author:** ![wevets](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e9a140/32.png) [@wevets](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wevets)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2005, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-torture-work/309770/74 "2005-06-26T18:30:40Z")
> [@Shalmanese](#): > > But say you capture someone hiding in a terrorist bunker surrounded by multiple RPG’s and a terrorist training manual… you can be pretty sure they’re a terrorist then. True… but it could also be a mistake. What if it’s someone the terrorists captured to try to force into becoming a suicide bomber? What if it’s someone they’re holding hostage to influence a tribal elder’s resolve? Now let’s say you capture them after they’ve been shooting at your troops. Now you can really be sure they’re guilty. Even now is torture justified? On moral grounds, I would say no. On practical grounds, that’s what this thread is devoted to talking about. I’m leaning towards no on those grounds too. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2005, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-torture-work/309770/75 "2005-06-26T18:34:23Z")
I’m not usually given to stuttering, really… :smack: ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2005, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-torture-work/309770/76 "2005-06-26T18:35:57Z")
> [@wevets](#): > > True… but it could also be a mistake. What if it’s someone the terrorists captured to try to force into becoming a suicide bomber? What if it’s someone they’re holding hostage to influence a tribal elder’s resolve? > > Now let’s say you capture them after they’ve been shooting at your troops. Now you can really be sure they’re guilty. Even now is torture justified? On moral grounds, I would say no. On practical grounds, that’s what this thread is devoted to talking about. I’m leaning towards no on those grounds too. And, surprise! They could be totally innocent people who were sold to American troops for bounties by local rivals and have never even spoken with an Al Qaeda member, let alone a leader… ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2005, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-torture-work/309770/77 "2005-06-26T18:36:30Z")
> [@Shalmanese](#): > > I think we’re only likely to hear one side of the issue on this. People are far more likely to say “I was involved in illegal torture and I now regret it because it didn’t work” than “I was involved in illegal torture and I regret nothing because it was very effective”. Another thing to consider is that perhaps we just haven’t tortured enough people. Torturers need to be trained like any other profession. It’s probable that someone who has tortured every day for 30 years is going to extract far better results than a rank amatuer. Given the lack of experienced torturers in the US army, this might also skew experience. Ok, this is going too far into defending torture, this guy expresses my opinion on the current defenders of it: > **[Irregular Times - Informasi Seputar Berita Politik Terkini](http://www.irregulartimes.com)** > > Irregular Times Memberikan Informasi Seputar Berita politik di USA > [@](#): > > The purpose of bringing up the Ticking Time Bomb Argument is to get Americans to believe the following two points: > > The question of whether or not torture is ethical is so difficult that even the worlds most brilliant minds in philosophy have been unable to provide an answer after generations of collective consideration. > There are many prominent philosophers who believe that torture is ethical. > The defenders of torture don’t expect everyone to agree that torture is a good idea. Their goal is merely to get opponents of torture to agree that, even though torture is unethical, it is reasonable for some people to conclude otherwise. As we listen to the commentators discuss the Bush Administration’s torture programs, we hear this tactic working. “Yes,” will say the human rights expert, trying to sound very wise, “these questions certainly are difficult. However, it is our position that…” “Well,” says the writer from the weekly newsmagazine, trying to sound very neutral, “the ethical arguments are very challenging, and a good argument can be made that in times like these…” > > … > > Among the false premises of the Ticking Time Bomb Argument: > > -There are no alternatives to torture. Wouldn’t it be simple if all of our ethical decisions were reduced a choice of doing something or doing nothing? Thankfully, the world is more complex than that, and there are always alternative solutions for minds who are strong enough to find them. > -The torture will certainly work. Actually, it’s been shown that information given under torture is commonly unreliable. Most people will say anything, true or false, to stop the pain of torture. > -The prisoner is, without a doubt, guilty, Guilty, GUILTY!! In most real situations, it’s not really clear whether someone is guilty of the crimes of which they are accused. That’s why we have trials, which some conservatives regard as messy and morally obstructionist, but the rest of us regard as essential to freedom and democracy. If could assume that all people held prisoner by our government are by definition guilty, then we could do away with our constitutional right to a fair trial - indeed, that’s what the Bush Administration is trying to do. However, the record is clear that many prisoners are innocent. In fact, the majority of people held prisoner by the Americans at Abu Ghraib had absolutely no connection to any violence at all. A large number were not even suspected of being criminals. Given the huge number of errors made in recent years by veteran CIA, FBI and Secret Service agents, it is not safe to assume that the agents of our government are capable of making competent decisions about who is guilty is and who is not. > -We are sure there is a bomb. If the time bomb is hidden, and has not yet e > exploded, how do you know for sure that there really is a bomb? Fake bomb threats are made quite frequently. > -It is certain that the prisoner knows how to stop the bomb from going off. Perhaps the bomb can’t be stopped. Perhaps the prisoner doesn’t know how to do it, and is incapable of supplying the information necessary for a bomb squad to stop the bomb. > If just one of the premises above proves to be false, the torture of the prisoner will be completely without benefit. Of course, there is no way to know beforehand if any of the premises are true. When the certain suffering of torture is posed against the uncertain benefit of torture, the ethical choice is clear: Avoid the suffering that is the most certain. > > What the people who exploit the Ticking Time Bomb Argument never acknowledge is that their reasoning creates a never-ending circle of violence. You see, unless we assume that the prisoner is simply insane (in which case torture probably wouldn’t work anyway), the prisoner is probably alleged to be a part of a terrorist bombing plot. The thing about terrorists is that they justify their violence through the argument that their own attacks are necessary to stop the larger, even more deadly attacks of their enemies. > > Does that argument sound familiar? It ought to, because it’s the same argument the Bush apologists use to justify torture. Torture is, essentially, terrorism. It’s the violent infliction of suffering in order to coerce someone into complying with our wishes. ---
**Author:** ![wevets](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e9a140/32.png) [@wevets](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wevets)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2005, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-torture-work/309770/78 "2005-06-26T19:03:42Z")
That’s a really good point about alternatives to torture. Why not try something like drugs or hypnotism in the ticking time bomb problem? ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2005, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-torture-work/309770/79 "2005-06-26T19:09:21Z")
> [@wevets](#): > > That’s a really good point about alternatives to torture. > > Why not try something like drugs or hypnotism in the ticking time bomb problem? Hypnotism’s out. You can’t hypnotize an unwilling subject, film and television depictions of sinister svengalis notwithstanding. ---
**Author:** ![kidchameleon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/898d66/32.png) [@kidchameleon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kidchameleon)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2005, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-torture-work/309770/80 "2005-06-26T19:13:08Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > It did with my kids. Man, there must be a lot of only children in this thread. Torture worked rather well on my little brother. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-torture-work/309770.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-torture-work/309770.md?page=5)