# Does Trump believe his own lies? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [September 2, 2017, 8:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-trump-believe-his-own-lies/795312 "2017-09-02T08:00:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Reddy\_Mercury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/43a26b/32.png) [@Reddy\_Mercury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Reddy_Mercury)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2017, 8:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-trump-believe-his-own-lies/795312/1 "2017-09-02T08:00:17Z")
I was watching his Phoenix speech from the other day, and while there were so many lies in it, he claimed three things specifically: 1. That he has gotten more done in the first six months than any President including “Harry Truman, who was number one” 2. That every President tried to get healthcare passed and couldn’t, but he will. 3. That under Trump we’ve “become an energy exporter for the first time ever!” Does he really believe his bull? Is he that ignorant of history? I mean, really, he’s done more in six months than anyone? Franklin Roosevelt would like to have a word with him; Lyndon Johnson would like to have a word with him. Does he really believe the crap he spews? ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2017, 9:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-trump-believe-his-own-lies/795312/2 "2017-09-02T09:12:28Z")
In the past I would have said no; this is a guy who used to be a democrat, he’s just saying whatever he thinks people want to hear. But his actions are consistent with belief in the shit he says. While some of what he says is no doubt “showmanship”, I think he’s basically the credulous aunt who sends you messages like " Diet coke now contains EBOLA". He goes to specific places for his news and believes what he wants to believe. ---
**Author:** ![elbows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b3f665/32.png) [@elbows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elbows)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2017, 12:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-trump-believe-his-own-lies/795312/3 "2017-09-02T12:14:30Z")
He often seems genuinely surprised that everyone isn’t yet ‘over’, that he lies. A lot. Like all the time. He’s so used to it, it ain’t no big thing to him. He seems to have a, “That’s who I am, better get used to it.”, attitude. ---
**Author:** ![ThelmaLou](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thelmalou/32/390_2.png) [@ThelmaLou](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ThelmaLou)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2017, 1:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-trump-believe-his-own-lies/795312/4 "2017-09-02T13:22:11Z")
IMHO he believes whatever comes out of his mouth at the time he is saying it. I don’t think he knows or believes that he lies–ever. For those who are into the Enneagram, Trump perfectly exhibits the characteristics of the average type 3 (according to [Riso-Hudson](https://www.enneagraminstitute.com/type-3/)). Dysfunctional Type 3s lie even when they don’t have to. BTW, on this scale _[NOT set in concrete–just the pov of one particular Enneagram school of thought]_, Level 1 is the most highly developed, and Level 9 is the most dysfunctional:( > [@](#): > > Average Levels > > Level 4: Highly concerned with their performance, doing their job well, constantly driving self to achieve goals as if self-worth depends on it. Terrified of failure. Compare self with others in search for status and success. Become careerists, social climbers, invested in exclusivity and being the “best.” > > Level 5: Become image-conscious, highly concerned with how they are perceived. Begin to package themselves according to the expectations of others and what they need to do to be successful. Pragmatic and efficient, but also premeditated, losing touch with their own feelings beneath a smooth facade. Problems with intimacy, credibility, and “phoniness” emerge. > > Level 6: Want to impress others with their superiority: constantly promoting themselves, making themselves sound better than they really are. Narcissistic, with grandiose, inflated notions about themselves and their talents. Exhibitionistic and seductive, as if saying “Look at me!” Arrogance and contempt for others is a defense against feeling jealous of others and their success. Although he he is no stranger to the unhealthy levels… > [@](#): > > Unhealthy Levels > > Level 7: Fearing failure and humiliation, they can be exploitative and opportunistic, covetous of the success of others, and willing to do “whatever it takes” to preserve the illusion of their superiority. > > Level 8: Devious and deceptive so that their mistakes and wrongdoings will not be exposed. Untrustworthy, maliciously betraying or sabotaging people to triumph over them. Delusionally jealous of others > > Level 9: Become vindictive, attempting to ruin others’ happiness. Relentless, obsessive about destroying whatever reminds them of their own shortcomings and failures. Psychopathic behavior. Generally corresponds to the Narcissistic Personality Disorder. ---
**Author:** ![Icarus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/icarus/32/72_2.png) [@Icarus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Icarus)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2017, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-trump-believe-his-own-lies/795312/5 "2017-09-02T15:59:14Z")
I am not a psych-anything-ist, but I can’t help but feel that some future researcher will come up with a brand new category to describe Trumps peculiar need to frame everything into “best” “most” “first” “greatest” “biggest”, etc. It seems that he makes a statement of very generalized fact, wrapped into (what I’ll call) a grandiosity statement. So, picking that apart - the generalized fact portion, I think he generally believes he is making an accurate statement (no one seems capable of challenging him on details, why that is I don’t know). Whereas his grandiosity statements, yes, he believes those also, but in a different way (frankly this is where his mental health comes into question). So, yes he believes his own lies, in the way we understand it. But I would say his understanding of lies is something else entirely. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2017, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-trump-believe-his-own-lies/795312/6 "2017-09-02T16:25:50Z")
> [@Icarus](#): > > So, yes he believes his own lies, in the way we understand it. But I would say his understanding of lies is something else entirely. Something like this I think. I don’t think words like ‘lie’ and ‘believe’ apply to him the same as to others. He is in that class of people who say whatever they feel is in their own best interest, concepts like truth and fact have nothing to do with what they are saying. ---
**Author:** ![BeepKillBeep](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/9e8a1a/32.png) [@BeepKillBeep](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BeepKillBeep)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2017, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-trump-believe-his-own-lies/795312/7 "2017-09-02T16:55:25Z")
“Donald, just remember, it is not a lie if you believe it.” - George Costanza (slightly modified) I think he does believe his own lies. Trump acts like somebody without much self-awareness. ---
**Author:** ![beowulff](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/beowulff/32/542_2.png) [@beowulff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/beowulff)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2017, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-trump-believe-his-own-lies/795312/8 "2017-09-02T17:53:40Z")
I’ve said for many months that he doesn’t know the difference between a lie and the truth. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2017, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-trump-believe-his-own-lies/795312/9 "2017-09-02T18:37:39Z")
> [@beowulff](#): > > I’ve said for many months that he doesn’t know the difference between a lie and the truth. I’m not sure. I mean, yeah, I’ll grant for the sake of argument that he’s been acting exactly as if he doesn’t know the difference between a lie and the truth; but doing that apparently got him the presidency, and he’s apparently just sticking with it. In which case, would he act any differently if he (a) knows full well when he’s lying, and (b) figures, _shucks, this has been working like a charm, so why stop now?_ ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2017, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-trump-believe-his-own-lies/795312/10 "2017-09-02T19:42:35Z")
More of a rant than debate or opinion seeking. Moving from GD to the Pit. [/moderating] ---
**Author:** ![Knowed\_Out](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/knowed_out/32/7380_2.png) [@Knowed\_Out](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Knowed_Out)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2017, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-trump-believe-his-own-lies/795312/11 "2017-09-02T22:16:56Z")
It’s his Art of the Deal. He approaches meetings by taking command of the room and attempting to intimidate those he deals with. He’ll come up with absolutions designed to throw his conferees on the defensive. He effects an air of absolute confidence that doesn’t waver, no matter how wrong he is. He doesn’t draw the distinction between truth and dishonesty when he’s keeping up a strong front. He has yet to learn that approach doesn’t work in politics. He doesn’t realize he’s not just dealing with individual congressmen. He’s dealing with that congressman’s constituents. No matter how much Donald can cajole, sputter and yell, congressmen aren’t going to roll over for him. He thought they would automatically, because he’s king fucking Trump. The only truth that matters to him is the parts that benefit him personally. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2017, 10:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-trump-believe-his-own-lies/795312/12 "2017-09-02T22:45:47Z")
> [@Knowed\_Out](#): > > He has yet to learn that approach doesn’t work in politics. But, again: it _did_ work, when his goal – and the goal of plenty of other “in politics” types – was To Get Elected President. And, at the risk of throwing up a little in my mouth, what if (a) his “in politics” goal is now Getting Re-Elected, and (b) he manages to get re-elected by just having his schtick work again? > [@](#): > > He doesn’t realize he’s not just dealing with individual congressmen. He’s dealing with that congressman’s constituents. No matter how much Donald can cajole, sputter and yell, congressmen aren’t going to roll over for him. He thought they would automatically, because he’s king fucking Trump. The only truth that matters to him is the parts that benefit him personally. But that’s just it: _assuming he gets re-elected_ by doing what got him elected, and assuming that’s what matters to him, then – as you say – would he care about Congress not rolling over for him on stuff that doesn’t benefit him personally? As long as millions of Americans still watch him string untruths together for cheering crowds on primetime television, does he care whether a given bill gets passed? He tweets and it’s national news. He plays golf and it’s national news. He fires a guy and it’s national news. He praises his daughter and it’s national news. If he doesn’t actually care about various pieces of legislation, is it possible he has an approach that in fact works in politics given all he wants out of it? (Again, bearing in mind how tons of folks “in politics” presumably tried real hard to get the presidency?) ---
**Author:** ![Icarus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/icarus/32/72_2.png) [@Icarus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Icarus)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2017, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-trump-believe-his-own-lies/795312/13 "2017-09-04T20:06:09Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > But, again: it _did_ work, when his goal – and the goal of plenty of other “in politics” types – was To Get Elected President. And, at the risk of throwing up a little in my mouth, what if (a) his “in politics” goal is now Getting Re-Elected, and (b) he manages to get re-elected by just having his schtick work again? The way I see it, it’s like those people you meet in life who are always yelling and screaming to get what they want, and then attributing their success at getting what they want to the yelling and screaming, rather than the fact that what they achieved was readily available without yelling and screaming. So, Trump has spent his life using his bullying nonsense to “win”, attributing his winning to the bullying. Whereas others have been equally successful without the histrionics. Regarding winning the Presidency, as has been pointed out there are a myriad of reasons he won; Hillary was a bad candidate, there was a lot of appetite for his actual message (regardless of the bullying bravado), etc. I’m suggesting he likely could have won without being an insane buffoon. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2017, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-trump-believe-his-own-lies/795312/14 "2017-09-04T20:23:10Z")
> [@Icarus](#): > > The way I see it, it’s like those people you meet in life who are always yelling and screaming to get what they want, and then attributing their success at getting what they want to the yelling and screaming, rather than the fact that what they achieved was readily available without yelling and screaming. So, Trump has spent his life using his bullying nonsense to “win”, attributing his winning to the bullying. Whereas others have been equally successful without the histrionics. > > Regarding winning the Presidency, as has been pointed out there are a myriad of reasons he won; Hillary was a bad candidate, there was a lot of appetite for his actual message (regardless of the bullying bravado), etc. I’m suggesting he likely could have won without being an insane buffoon. I’ll maybe grant that for the sake of argument – but the question was, does Trump actually believe his lies, or does he know that he’s lying? So I guess what I’m saying is: okay, let’s assume Trump is doing this whole schtick because he thinks it works; and, if you want, let’s also assume that he likely _could_ succeed without the rattling-off-untruths-like-an-insane-buffoon approach. Would that make it any more or less likely that Trump (a) knows full well that he’s lying, or that he (b) believes what he’s saying? Because, well, I can’t tell. As far as I can tell, he’d act this way if he believes what he’s saying, _and_ he’d act this way if he realizes he’s tossing a bunch of untruths out there but thinks that approach is why he gets wins – and, to me, it’s irrelevant whether that approach _is_ why he gets wins, or whether he just thinks that. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2017, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-trump-believe-his-own-lies/795312/15 "2017-09-04T22:06:09Z")
In the specific instances in the OP, yes, Trump believes it. He has to, because his own self-worth is tied up in it. It’s classic narcissism. Sure, deep down, they are insecure and unsure. But that’s not conscious. If it were, they could learn to deal with it. Instead, they think those feelings are wrong and not reflective of reality. The truth is what they claim it is. Do I think Trump also lies sometimes because he believes that lying often enough will make something the truth (ala the Secret or Name It Claim It theology)? Yes, I do. But I don’t think that’s the issue here. He has actually convinced himself that what he is saying is true. His self-worth is as important to him as our lives are to normal people. He cannot ever believe he failed. So he must convince himself otherwise. ---
**Author:** ![outlierrn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/outlierrn/32/3005_2.png) [@outlierrn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/outlierrn)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2017, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-trump-believe-his-own-lies/795312/16 "2017-09-04T22:53:37Z")
When the President says it, that means that it is not a lie. ---
**Author:** ![Modesty\_Blaise](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/77aa72/32.png) [@Modesty\_Blaise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Modesty_Blaise)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2017, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-trump-believe-his-own-lies/795312/17 "2017-09-05T16:19:20Z")
Trump is a Malignant Narcissist. The question of whether he believes his lies or not is a waste of time all around. Whatever he thinks is required in that moment to make himself look good is what he says. Lie or truth is completely irrelevant to him. It worked for him and that is the end of what matters. Learning about his personality disorder has scared me more than anything else. This country is in big trouble. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2017, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-trump-believe-his-own-lies/795312/18 "2017-09-05T16:31:19Z")
> [@Reddy\_Mercury](#): > > I was watching his Phoenix speech from the other day, and while there were so many lies in it, he claimed three things specifically: > > 1. That he has gotten more done in the first six months than any President including “Harry Truman, who was number one” > > 2. That every President tried to get healthcare passed and couldn’t, but he will. > > 3. That under Trump we’ve “become an energy exporter for the first time ever!” > > Does he really believe his bull? Is he that ignorant of history? I mean, really, he’s done more in six months than anyone? Franklin Roosevelt would like to have a word with him; Lyndon Johnson would like to have a word with him. > > Does he really believe the crap he spews? No he doesn’t. He’s a Bullshitter. That’s worse than a liar. let me 'splain. A liar knows what the truth is. A liar usually will usually tell the truth except when his own needs dictate differently. He will lie for a specific reason and to reach a specific goal. A bullshitter knows the truth but just doesn’t giver a damn. A bullshitter will lie any time for any reason, or for no reason at all. If he can spew horse shit and get you to fall for it, it’s a rush. He made you look stupid. He put one over on you. It’s a power thing. Trump is a bullshitter. He will lie any time, ALL the time, just to do it. And a bullshitter is more dangerous than a liar. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2017, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-trump-believe-his-own-lies/795312/19 "2017-09-05T16:35:38Z")
Whether he knows or not is uncertain. I don’t think it matters to him one bit. I think he is so willfully ignorant and mentally deranged that he says what he thinks should be true, no matter if it is or not. We have a psychotic toddler with the nuclear codes, I’m more worried about that than whatever nonsense spews out of his mouth. ---
**Author:** ![Ukulele\_Ike](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/df788c/32.png) [@Ukulele\_Ike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ukulele_Ike)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2017, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-trump-believe-his-own-lies/795312/20 "2017-09-05T16:36:16Z")
Well, hell. I guess I’m a bullshitter. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-trump-believe-his-own-lies/795312.md?page=2)