# Does Trump's pardon of Arpaio really stand out from past pardons? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 29, 2017, 2:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-trumps-pardon-of-arpaio-really-stand-out-from-past-pardons/795026 "2017-08-29T14:14:12Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2017, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-trumps-pardon-of-arpaio-really-stand-out-from-past-pardons/795026/41 "2017-08-29T16:13:56Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > I have three questions for you: > > 1. How do you think the police themselves define “pro-police”; more in line with the view of many conservatives, or yourself? It depends on the cop. Statistically, I would imagine more cops side with the conservative argument, but there are plenty of cops who do not. I’m sure Sheriff Bull Connors and his supporters believed they were “pro-police”, but I think it was quite reasonable at the time to assert that his actions and positions were extremely harmful to cops over the long term. > [@](#): > > 1. Do you think they generally favor policies that _they_ believe will result in improved officer safety or not? I’m sure they do. > [@](#): > > 1. Do you think you have more expertise /insight into what actions are likely to result in improved officer safety than the average cop, or less? I imagine I have quite a bit less insight into what would improve officer safety in the short term than the “average cop”. As for the medium and long term, I don’t know. There are [plenty of cops](https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/mvkjma/white-cop-black-lives-matter) with positions that are much closer to mine than the conservative views (another example: recently retired Dallas police chief David Brown). That there might be more on the other side tells me little more about how accurate they are then the views of the majority of cops when they would have sided with Bull Connors. In the 60s, assuming the great majority of cops in the US would have sided with Bull Connors’ ideology rather than those of Civil Rights activists (which in my view is highly likely), would you have sided against Connors and those like him, knowing what you know now? Do you think their position resulted in increased officer safety over the long term, or reduced officer safety? If you would have sided against Connors, how would you address criticism of your position that cops know much more about cop safety and law enforcement than you? ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2017, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-trumps-pardon-of-arpaio-really-stand-out-from-past-pardons/795026/42 "2017-08-29T16:16:38Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > … He and his administration have worked to minimize the power of the Judicial branch of the federal government, repeatedly insisting that the Executive branch should be supreme and that judgments he did not personally like should be overridden. … All of this sounds like it’d apply just as well to Obama too. How did you feel when Obama was dressing down the Supremes over their _Citizens United_ decision at the State of the Union? > [@Gyrate](#): > > … despite a willingness to excoriate unions in general as corrupt organizations, goes very quiet when it comes to police unions. … Romney went a bit too anti-union and the Fraternal Order of Police withheld their endorsement in 2012. ---
**Author:** ![Okrahoma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/90db22/32.png) [@Okrahoma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Okrahoma)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2017, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-trumps-pardon-of-arpaio-really-stand-out-from-past-pardons/795026/43 "2017-08-29T16:18:00Z")
> [@Airbeck](#): > > So is viewing your opposition as a ridiculous caricature. Oh the irony is so thick it can almost be cut with a knife. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2017, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-trumps-pardon-of-arpaio-really-stand-out-from-past-pardons/795026/44 "2017-08-29T16:19:35Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > Somehow, they seem to have failed to communicate that message clearly and convincingly to the police themselves. [Police around the country beg to differ](http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/politics/ct-police-chiefs-trump-brutality-20170730-story.html). ---
**Author:** ![somepumpkin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/7feea3/32.png) [@somepumpkin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/somepumpkin)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2017, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-trumps-pardon-of-arpaio-really-stand-out-from-past-pardons/795026/45 "2017-08-29T16:23:55Z")
Oh, I think what he’s doing is horrible. I’d just as soon step on DT to keep my shoes clean/dry. It would involve great toil and anguish to find respect for anything that clown has done. However, I think that the left is helping to sell a bunch of ads on news channels and late night talk shows around the country. It’s getting tiring to hear all the fluff with no meaty center. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2017, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-trumps-pardon-of-arpaio-really-stand-out-from-past-pardons/795026/46 "2017-08-29T16:26:09Z")
Mistake in my last post – it’s Bull Connor, not Connors. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2017, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-trumps-pardon-of-arpaio-really-stand-out-from-past-pardons/795026/47 "2017-08-29T16:29:13Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > [Police around the country beg to differ](http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/politics/ct-police-chiefs-trump-brutality-20170730-story.html). > [@](#): > > [Out of that population of working officers who plan to vote in the November election, 84% say they support Donald Trump. Hillary was supported by 8%](http://www.policemag.com/channel/patrol/articles/2016/09/the-2016-police-presidential-poll.aspx) I share this because it would not surprise me if you were truly unaware: the IACP is just about the most liberal police organization I know of. ---
**Author:** ![Airbeck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/airbeck/32/6574_2.png) [@Airbeck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airbeck)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2017, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-trumps-pardon-of-arpaio-really-stand-out-from-past-pardons/795026/48 "2017-08-29T16:30:51Z")
> [@Okrahoma](#): > > Oh the irony is so thick it can almost be cut with a knife. Right back at ya. Anything of substance to add to this Great Debate, or are you just doing a drive by insult? Do you think all criticism of Trump is “a chorus of chicken littles” also? Do you disagree that that was a ridiculous caricature of the opposition? Do you claim that is an accurate assessment? You might want to take a quick look in a mirror next time before commenting on the irony in another’s post. It might reflect poorly on you. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2017, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-trumps-pardon-of-arpaio-really-stand-out-from-past-pardons/795026/49 "2017-08-29T16:33:06Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > I share this because it would not surprise me if you were truly unaware: the IACP is just about the most liberal police organization I know of. I wonder what percentage of cops would have supported Bull Connor over the Civil Rights activists in Alabama. Considering that the [majority of the country, in the early 60s](http://www.crmvet.org/docs/60s_crm_public-opinion.pdf), was against the Civil Rights activists, I think it’s reasonable to posit that an even larger percentage of cops (in the early 60s) would have favored Connor’s position. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2017, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-trumps-pardon-of-arpaio-really-stand-out-from-past-pardons/795026/50 "2017-08-29T16:35:59Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > In the 60s, assuming the great majority of cops in the US would have sided with Bull Connors’ ideology rather than those of Civil Rights activists (which in my view is highly likely), would you have sided against Connors and those like him, knowing what you know now? Do you think their position resulted in increased officer safety over the long term, or reduced officer safety? If you would have sided against Connors, how would you address criticism of your position that cops know much more about cop safety and law enforcement than you? Thanks for your response. Knowing what I know now, I think I would have sided with the Civil Rights activists. I don’t have any particular expertise on LEO safety and I don’t know if Bull Connor increased or decreased it, but my general impression is that the pendulum has swung WAY too far in favor of it in recent years, at the expense of citizen’s safety. I would have answered the criticism that my position isn’t as concerned with officer safety as with citizen safety. ETA: I wouldn’t win an FOP endorsement either ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2017, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-trumps-pardon-of-arpaio-really-stand-out-from-past-pardons/795026/51 "2017-08-29T16:41:47Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > All of this sounds like it’d apply just as well to Obama too. How did you feel when Obama was dressing down the Supremes over their _Citizens United_ decision at the State of the Union? Did Obama criticize the entire judicial branch, or just quibble with the rationale for the decision? Did he insult the justices and complain that they were all biased against him (because “reasons”) like Trump has done on multiple occasions? Plus the deletion of the other points is noted, unless you also have some examples of Obama encouraging the police to rough up suspects…or for that matter, where he encouraged his own followers to punch people he didn’t like. > [@](#): > > Romney went a bit too anti-union and the Fraternal Order of Police withheld their endorsement in 2012. So the GOP don’t “like” the police; they’re just - what’s the term the right like to use? Oh yes - pandering to their supporters. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2017, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-trumps-pardon-of-arpaio-really-stand-out-from-past-pardons/795026/52 "2017-08-29T16:42:33Z")
> [@asahi](#): > > Something can be technically true according to the letter of the law and yet still violate the spirit in which the law was written. What was the spirit of the Founding Fathers when they put the pardon clause into the Constitution? Do you have, for instance, some contemporary quotes that indicate that they thought something about Presidential pardons that they didn’t put into the Constitution? > [@](#): > > It would be civic-minded of if you could just take off your partisan blinders for a moment and actually see what this pardon represents, which is an egregious example of contempt for the rule of law. I don’t think it’s partisan blinders that makes it hard for me to see how abiding by the law shows an utter disregard for it. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2017, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-trumps-pardon-of-arpaio-really-stand-out-from-past-pardons/795026/53 "2017-08-29T16:49:24Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > I share this because it would not surprise me if you were truly unaware: the IACP is just about the most liberal police organization I know of. Police leadership seems to be more sympathetic to the left than rank and file cops. In that respect, the left has much more work to do. But let’s not lose track of the original premise. You said the left doesn’t like cops when in fact the left works hard to improve police/community relations by not turning a blind eye towards existing systemic problems. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2017, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-trumps-pardon-of-arpaio-really-stand-out-from-past-pardons/795026/54 "2017-08-29T16:51:35Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > … some examples of Obama encouraging the police to rough up suspects…or for that matter, where he encouraged his own followers to punch people he didn’t like. Obama said some pretty ugly things during his campaign too: > [@](#): > > I want you to argue with them and get in their faces > [@](#): > > If they bring a knife to the fight, we bring a gun, because from what I understand folks in Philly like a good brawl. I’ve seen Eagles fans. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Ace](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/6bbea6/32.png) [@Johnny\_Ace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Ace)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2017, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-trumps-pardon-of-arpaio-really-stand-out-from-past-pardons/795026/55 "2017-08-29T16:52:56Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > So when Trump acts in full accordance with the supreme law of the land, this demonstrates a flagrant disregard for the rule of law in this country? But the left doesn’t have a hyperbole problem. Ooooookay then… > > Regards, > Shodan I keep wondering which Infowars or Fox News columnist you really are. **Shodan** , meet the [Foureteenth Amendment](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourteenth_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitution). 14th Amendment, **Shodan**. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Ace](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/6bbea6/32.png) [@Johnny\_Ace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Ace)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2017, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-trumps-pardon-of-arpaio-really-stand-out-from-past-pardons/795026/56 "2017-08-29T17:00:02Z")
Heh typo there ^. Ham fingers and not rereading the post win again. ---
**Author:** ![Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/aca169/32.png) [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inbred_Mm_domesticus)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2017, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-trumps-pardon-of-arpaio-really-stand-out-from-past-pardons/795026/57 "2017-08-29T17:01:27Z")
We have a link to the 538 article which attempts to objectively analyze the pardon in terms of historical precedent. We have **John Mace** letting us know about the PBS analysis. So we can easily get a sense of the facts and apply them to the OP’s question. The objective answer is that it is a typical Trump move. The rest is just politics. Every response here is just politics. There’s no seeing it through each other’s eyes because we all know the facts. Now we’re just trying to minimize the consequences of the pardon or exaggerate them. I can’t make myself see clearly the benefit of minimizing the consequences of pardoning a man who made being brown and Spanish speaking a crime, a man who believed in making detention as cruel as possible, a man who wasted huge amounts of government money to abuse people. But I can understand why it might make some feel more comfortable if law enforcement behaved this way. That is why, as a liberal, my duty is to exaggerate this act as much as possible, but my concern is this: How should I be hyperbolic? What’s the best approach for the hyperbole that will rouse an effective response to this particular incident of dog-whistling? Give more money to the ACLU? Donate money to churches that house immigrants? Go up to a stupid white Christian and empathize with how oppressed they are? ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2017, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-trumps-pardon-of-arpaio-really-stand-out-from-past-pardons/795026/58 "2017-08-29T17:02:29Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > Obama said some pretty ugly things during his campaign too: He also [stood up for a pro-Trump protester at a Dem rally](http://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-election-obama-idUSKBN12Z2MU). ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2017, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-trumps-pardon-of-arpaio-really-stand-out-from-past-pardons/795026/59 "2017-08-29T17:05:30Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > Police leadership seems to be more sympathetic to the left than rank and file cops. In that respect, the left has much more work to do. The IACP is only one manifestation of “police leadership”. Sheriffs are another, one that leans pretty far to the right in my experience. Statewide police organizations and leadership tend to be to the right of municipal police chiefs as well. None of that’s terribly surprising. Big cities lean Dem, they tend to have Dem mayors, who appoint left-leaning police chiefs. Sheriffs cover counties and there seem to be more rural counties than urban ones. Statewide police organizations have the blue cities power watered down a bit by the more rural (and often redder) areas of the state. > [@QuickSilver](#): > > But let’s not lose track of the original premise. You said the left doesn’t like cops when in fact the left works hard to improve police/community relations by not turning a blind eye towards existing systemic problems. Any comment on the leftists that chanted “What do we want? Dead Cops! When do we want them? Now!” or “Pigs in a blanket, fry 'em like bacon”? Or when Antifa was throwing bottles of urine at the police? Is that ‘working hard to improve police/community relations’ or more of an ‘existing systemic problem’? I originally said “The side that likes cops …”. Of course there are some leftists that like cops (and some that are cops themselves), and some conservatives that don’t particularly (I count myself among the latter). Would it ease your concerns if I amended that to say “the side that likes cops _more_”? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2017, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-trumps-pardon-of-arpaio-really-stand-out-from-past-pardons/795026/60 "2017-08-29T17:07:41Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > Thanks for your response. Knowing what I know now, I think I would have sided with the Civil Rights activists. I don’t have any particular expertise on LEO safety and I don’t know if Bull Connor increased or decreased it, but my general impression is that the pendulum has swung WAY too far in favor of it in recent years, at the expense of citizen’s safety. I would have answered the criticism that my position isn’t as concerned with officer safety as with citizen safety. > > ETA: I wouldn’t win an FOP endorsement either Isn’t it entirely reasonable to posit that actions of Bull Connor and his ilk (which used to be very common, if on a smaller scale than Connor’s actions) greatly endangered police safety in the long term by massively increasing distrust of police in many communities? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-trumps-pardon-of-arpaio-really-stand-out-from-past-pardons/795026.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-trumps-pardon-of-arpaio-really-stand-out-from-past-pardons/795026.md?page=4)