# Does Trump's pardon of Arpaio really stand out from past pardons? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 29, 2017, 2:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-trumps-pardon-of-arpaio-really-stand-out-from-past-pardons/795026 "2017-08-29T14:14:12Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2017, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-trumps-pardon-of-arpaio-really-stand-out-from-past-pardons/795026/141 "2017-08-30T15:45:24Z")
> [@Procrustus](#): > > Also, compare the fact that “he’s an old man and shouldn’t go to jail” (_for 6 months_) excuse with the fact he’s considering running next year for a Senate position that has a 6 year term. If he’s too old to be locked up, he’s too old to represent Arizona for 6 years. Keep in mind that my position is: I would have supported a presidential commutation of any jail time, but did not support a pardon, because the commutation would have eliminated the jail time if that were truly the goal. Now, with that in mind, I’d point out that the statement you’ve offered up as a rule (“If he’s too old to be locked up, he’s too old to represent Arizona for 6 years”) is not actually any kind of a rule at all. It’s just something in your head. Jail time is more onerous than Capitol Hill time. There’s really not a parallel between the two. I think Arpaio would be a horrid choice for US Senate, so don’t assume that “You have a bad argument against X,” means “I favor X.” Among the thousands of reasons Arpaio would be an awful choice to represent Arizona in the Senate, I don’t agree that we find “Because he’s too old to be sent to jail.” Senators are permitted to be frail. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2017, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-trumps-pardon-of-arpaio-really-stand-out-from-past-pardons/795026/142 "2017-08-30T16:15:44Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > IYHO. We’re talking about a guy who wasn’t affiliated with any group, but the groups he followed on Facebook were recognized by the SPLC as hate groups that nobody like Antifa or BLM would give the time of day to. Do you agree that Micah Xavier Johnson’s politics lie somewhere on the left side of the political spectrum of modern American politics? Do you agree that his actions were “expressing upset with what cops do”? > [@RTFirefly](#): > > So, how about that Dylann Roof? Guess he was just a conservative protester. What does Dylan Roof have to do with a discussion about “the left’s actions expressing upset with what cops do”? I’m failing to see any connection or relevance here. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2017, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-trumps-pardon-of-arpaio-really-stand-out-from-past-pardons/795026/143 "2017-08-30T16:53:04Z")
“Fail to see” is a remarkably good choice of words. I am pleased to see we are having such a positive effect on you. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2017, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-trumps-pardon-of-arpaio-really-stand-out-from-past-pardons/795026/144 "2017-08-30T16:56:57Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > “Fail to see” is a remarkably good choice of words. I am pleased to see we are having such a positive effect on you. And you think you are part of the “we”? ---
**Author:** ![Channing\_Idaho\_Banks](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/channing_idaho_banks/32/250_2.png) [@Channing\_Idaho\_Banks](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Channing_Idaho_Banks)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2017, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-trumps-pardon-of-arpaio-really-stand-out-from-past-pardons/795026/145 "2017-08-30T17:04:18Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Keep in mind that my position is: I would have supported a presidential commutation of any jail time, but did not support a pardon, because the commutation would have eliminated the jail time if that were truly the goal. > > Now, with that in mind, I’d point out that the statement you’ve offered up as a rule (“If he’s too old to be locked up, he’s too old to represent Arizona for 6 years”) is not actually any kind of a rule at all. It’s just something in your head. Jail time is more onerous than Capitol Hill time. There’s really not a parallel between the two. > > I think Arpaio would be a horrid choice for US Senate, so don’t assume that “You have a bad argument against X,” means “I favor X.” Among the thousands of reasons Arpaio would be an awful choice to represent Arizona in the Senate, I don’t agree that we find “Because he’s too old to be sent to jail.” Senators are permitted to be frail. So, you’re happy that he won’t serve time for his crimes against the constitution, but you don’t think he should have had to admit his guilt by accepting the pardon? ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2017, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-trumps-pardon-of-arpaio-really-stand-out-from-past-pardons/795026/146 "2017-08-30T17:17:39Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > I’m failing to see any connection or relevance here. None so blind, etc. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2017, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-trumps-pardon-of-arpaio-really-stand-out-from-past-pardons/795026/147 "2017-08-30T17:22:15Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > None so blind, etc. That’s a disappointing non-answer. Look, we were discussing why the left doesn’t like cops, or at least not as much as the right. I brought up an example of a murderous asshole on the left who targeted cops. Certainly there are other murderous assholes on both sides of the political spectrum, but how the hell do they factor into a discussion about why the Left has the reputation as being less supportive of law enforcement than the Right? What good is bringing up Dylan Roof or that murderous asshole that shot Steve Scalise in that discussion? ---
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2017, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-trumps-pardon-of-arpaio-really-stand-out-from-past-pardons/795026/148 "2017-08-30T17:23:22Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Keep in mind that my position is: I would have supported a presidential commutation of any jail time, but did not support a pardon, because the commutation would have eliminated the jail time if that were truly the goal. > > Now, with that in mind, I’d point out that the statement you’ve offered up as a rule (“If he’s too old to be locked up, he’s too old to represent Arizona for 6 years”) is not actually any kind of a rule at all. It’s just something in your head. Jail time is more onerous than Capitol Hill time. There’s really not a parallel between the two. > > I think Arpaio would be a horrid choice for US Senate, so don’t assume that “You have a bad argument against X,” means “I favor X.” Among the thousands of reasons Arpaio would be an awful choice to represent Arizona in the Senate, I don’t agree that we find “Because he’s too old to be sent to jail.” Senators are permitted to be frail. I don’t completely disagree with you. But I was struck by the contrast that he’s such an old man, meaning he doesn’t need to be punished or he shouldn’t have to endure it, and the fact he apparently thinks he’s not too old to begin a 6 year job across the country. I just think (yes, not a rule, just me) that if he’s old enough to run a campaign and take a job with a six year commitment, he’s not to old to serve his time. Yes, Senators are permitted to be frail. Hell, it’s probably the easiest job in government. You don’t actually have to _do_ anything. Let’s just agree he wold be “an awful choice” for many reasons. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2017, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-trumps-pardon-of-arpaio-really-stand-out-from-past-pardons/795026/149 "2017-08-30T17:31:04Z")
> [@Johnny\_Ace](#): > > Arpaio violated the 14th Amendment, proudly and overtly and on a large scale. And yet was only convicted of a misdemeanor. > [@](#): > > Trump approved the behavior by pardoning him. If a President approves of behavior when he pardons someone, then you would agree that Obama approves of bank fraud, counterfeiting, and smuggling cocaine. > [@](#): > > After all, who needs silly little things like a Constitution when you’re [del]the leader of the free world[/del] a tyrant? That’s the point I don’t see - how does abiding by the Constitution make one a tyrant? Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2017, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-trumps-pardon-of-arpaio-really-stand-out-from-past-pardons/795026/150 "2017-08-30T17:37:52Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Keep in mind that my position is: I would have supported a presidential commutation of any jail time, but did not support a pardon, because the commutation would have eliminated the jail time if that were truly the goal. I agree with this. He should have been sentenced before any pardon was even considered. And if it was given because of his age, it would be been less objectionable than getting a pardon just because the pardoner is just as racist as he is. The bit about liberals being anti-police is silly. I’m as liberal as they come and I have no problem with criminals being arrested and put through the judicial system. What I object to is the chronic use of excessive force, disproportionately applied to minorities. It’s preposterous to think that cops should be allowed to exterminate anyone that they can claim with a straight face that made them in fear of their lives. Get a little slower on the trigger and stop with the racial profiling and I’ll be as pro-police as can be. Does the Arpaio pardon threaten the future of democratic rule? Not by itself, but it is a huge step in that direction. It emboldens white supremacy and it makes potential witnesses in the Russia scandal less afraid of the consequences of not providing full and truthful testimony. It hints of future pardons to come, where people are tried and convicted and then escape facing the consequences of their acts based on their being in the “right” party. Democracy is much more fragile than a lot of people think. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2017, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-trumps-pardon-of-arpaio-really-stand-out-from-past-pardons/795026/151 "2017-08-30T17:38:31Z")
> [@Channing\_Idaho\_Banks](#): > > So, you’re happy that he won’t serve time for his crimes against the constitution, but you don’t think he should have had to admit his guilt by accepting the pardon? No, that’s not remotely accurate. The commutation of sentence that I said I favored – and which I only favored if he had been sentenced to jail in the first place, an outcome I and most legal observers found unlikely – would leave the judicial determination of his guilt in place. No outcome I favor would result in his ability to disavow his guilt, and [I also spoke of my desire that he express remorse](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=20448427&postcount=128) before any Presidential succor should occur. I can’t believe this was unclear in my preceding posts here. ---
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2017, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-trumps-pardon-of-arpaio-really-stand-out-from-past-pardons/795026/152 "2017-08-30T17:40:10Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > That’s the point I don’t see - how does abiding by the Constitution make one a tyrant? Imagine a few dozen people convicted of trying to overthrow the government and install Baron Trump as King. Imagine President Trump saying he supports their efforts. Then he pardons them before they’re sentenced. He certainly has that authority and is “abiding by the Constitution,” but you could see how such an effort might be criticized. Here, Trump has embraced and endorsed the concept of disregarding a federal court order. (An idea he has great affection for, since he hates federal court orders, and judges in general.) He didn’t say “the man did something wrong, but has suffered enough,” or other such excuse. He thinks Arpaio is a hero who was “just doing his job.” That doesn’t \*technically \*make him a “tyrant,” but it’s a good insult that captures one aspect of his deplorable presidency. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2017, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-trumps-pardon-of-arpaio-really-stand-out-from-past-pardons/795026/153 "2017-08-30T17:40:15Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > That’s a disappointing non-answer. Look, we were discussing why the left doesn’t like cops, or at least not as much as the right. I brought up an example of a murderous asshole on the left who targeted cops. Certainly there are other murderous assholes on both sides of the political spectrum, but how the hell do they factor into a discussion about why the Left has the reputation as being less supportive of law enforcement than the Right? What good is bringing up Dylan Roof or that murderous asshole that shot Steve Scalise in that discussion? My point is that some random murderous asshole doesn’t say a thing about The Left or The Right, regardless of whether the voices in their heads are leftist or rightist in nature. If you start pulling in people from out of left (or right) field, taking turns saying, “this deranged killer is one of _yours_,” we ultimately get to ‘who was worse, Hitler or Stalin?’ I’m not going around saying that people like Dylann Roof say anything about the Republican Party; I’m willing to go by who they disown outright, who they cozy up to, and who they only step away from under pressure and with great reluctance. Roof was in the first category. So who on the left is only reluctantly disowning Johnson? ---
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2017, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-trumps-pardon-of-arpaio-really-stand-out-from-past-pardons/795026/154 "2017-08-30T18:20:58Z")
Apparently, the pardon will be challenged. [An interesting argument](https://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/right-turn/wp/2017/08/30/legal-challenge-to-arpaio-pardon-begins/?hpid=hp_no-name_opinion-card-b%3Ahomepage%2Fstory&utm_term=.419bae02315e). The judge has asked for briefing from the parties about the request to dismiss the case. I don’t predict she will invalidate the pardon, but I’ll watch with anticipation. > [@](#): > > Put simply, the argument is that the president cannot obviate the court’s powers to enforce its orders when the constitutional rights of others is at stake. “The president can’t use the pardon power to immunize lawless officials from consequences for violating people’s constitutional rights,” says one of the lawyers who authored the letter, Ron Fein, legal director of Free Speech for People. Clearly, there is a larger concern here that goes beyond Arpaio. “After repeatedly belittling and undermining judges verbally and on Twitter, now President Trump is escalating his attack on the courts into concrete actions,” says Ian Bassin, executive director of Protect Democracy. “His pardon and celebration of Joe Arpaio for ignoring a judicial order is a threat to our democracy and every citizen’s rights, and should not be allowed to stand.” ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2017, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-trumps-pardon-of-arpaio-really-stand-out-from-past-pardons/795026/155 "2017-08-30T18:44:13Z")
> [@Procrustus](#): > > Imagine a few dozen people convicted of trying to overthrow the government and install Baron Trump as King. Imagine President Trump saying he supports their efforts. Then he pardons them before they’re sentenced. He certainly has that authority and is “abiding by the Constitution,” but you could see how such an effort might be criticized. I could see that. But the case we are talking about is an old fart committing a misdemeanor by enforcing federal immigration policy when a judge didn’t want him to. > [@](#): > > Here, Trump has embraced and endorsed the concept of disregarding a federal court order. Sure, to the same extent that Obama embraced and endorsed the concept of smuggling cocaine, bank fraud, and counterfeiting, or Clinton endorsed income tax evasion. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Ace](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/6bbea6/32.png) [@Johnny\_Ace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Ace)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2017, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-trumps-pardon-of-arpaio-really-stand-out-from-past-pardons/795026/156 "2017-08-30T18:56:09Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > You guys crack me up sometimes. Try taking a look around the world or reading some history for real examples of tyrants / dictators. I guess we can’t all be as well-informed as you are. :rolleyes: Spare us all your condescension. How would you characterize doing his utmost to break checks-and-balances at every turn in order to get what he wants done? Oh, I forget, he’s your guy, so it’s just the everyday cost of doing business. Until it’s a Democrat doing it, right? Classic party-over-country philosophy. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2017, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-trumps-pardon-of-arpaio-really-stand-out-from-past-pardons/795026/157 "2017-08-30T18:59:52Z")
> [@Procrustus](#): > > Apparently, the pardon will be challenged. [An interesting argument](https://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/right-turn/wp/2017/08/30/legal-challenge-to-arpaio-pardon-begins/?hpid=hp_no-name_opinion-card-b%3Ahomepage%2Fstory&utm_term=.419bae02315e). The judge has asked for briefing from the parties about the request to dismiss the case. I don’t predict she will invalidate the pardon, but I’ll watch with anticipation. No, the pardon is not being challenged. The article reports two distinct courses of action: (1) Arpaio’s lawyers have asked the judge to vacate all opinions, judgments, and verdicts related to the criminal charge of which he was convicted, under the theory that he was given an unconditional pardon. But a pardon does not require such an action: it exists alongside such verdicts. The _legal consequences_ of his crime are remitted; the fact of conviction is not wiped from the Earth. So in this first instance, what’s being challenged is not the pardon, but the motion by Arpaio to wipe clean all opinions, judgments, and verdicts that arose from his criminal trial and conviction. (2) Some guys in a group called “Protect Democracy,” which the article describes as “an activist group seeking to thwart Trump’s violations of legal norms,” have sent a letter to the Public Integrity Section at the Department of Justice in which they argue that Trump’s pardon is a bad idea, and unconstitutional. But “Protect Democracy,” is not a party to the dispute and has no standing to challenge the pardon. Not only is their argument novel, they literally have no voice in the courtroom in this case. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2017, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-trumps-pardon-of-arpaio-really-stand-out-from-past-pardons/795026/158 "2017-08-30T19:02:10Z")
> [@Procrustus](#): > > Imagine a few dozen people convicted of trying to overthrow the government and install Baron Trump as King. Imagine President Trump saying he supports their efforts. Then he pardons them before they’re sentenced. He certainly has that authority and is “abiding by the Constitution,” but you could see how such an effort might be criticized. As the Supreme Court observed when contemplating exactly that scenario: > [@SCOTUS in Ex Parte Grossman](#): > > If it be said that the President, by successive pardons of constantly recurring contempts in particular litigation, might deprive a court of power to enforce its orders in a recalcitrant neighborhood, it is enough to observe that such a course is so improbable as to furnish but little basis for argument. Exceptional cases like this, if to be imagined at all, would suggest a resort to impeachment, rather than to a narrow and strained construction of the general powers of the President. ---
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2017, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-trumps-pardon-of-arpaio-really-stand-out-from-past-pardons/795026/159 "2017-08-30T19:09:06Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > As the Supreme Court observed when contemplating exactly that scenario: My, how times have changed. > [@](#): > > , it is enough to observe that such a course is so improbable as to furnish but little basis for argument. > [@](#): > > Exceptional cases like this, if to be imagined at all, would suggest a resort to impeachment No longer so “improbable.” And I wouldn’t hold my breath for impeachment. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Ace](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/6bbea6/32.png) [@Johnny\_Ace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Ace)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2017, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-trumps-pardon-of-arpaio-really-stand-out-from-past-pardons/795026/160 "2017-08-30T19:18:35Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > And yet was only convicted of a misdemeanor. > If a President approves of behavior when he pardons someone, then you would agree that Obama approves of bank fraud, counterfeiting, and smuggling cocaine. > That’s the point I don’t see - how does abiding by the Constitution make one a tyrant? > > Regards, > Shodan That’s some seriously impressive logic-twisting rot thayer. Trump has _literally said_ that he approves of Arpaio’s actions. Apples to supernovae. Using the Constitution to justify unconstitutional actions? That’s abiding by the Constitution? That might wash with an 8-year-old. Maybe. Or Trump’s base, who will accept any exonerating excuse, no matter how fantastic, definitely. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-trumps-pardon-of-arpaio-really-stand-out-from-past-pardons/795026.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-trumps-pardon-of-arpaio-really-stand-out-from-past-pardons/795026.md?page=9)