# Does Unseen Academicals get any better? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [July 17, 2012, 1:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-unseen-academicals-get-any-better/628515 "2012-07-17T13:39:33Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Bosstone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/22d042/32.png) [@Bosstone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosstone)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2012, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-unseen-academicals-get-any-better/628515/21 "2012-07-18T22:07:07Z")
> [@Slow\_Moving\_Vehicle](#): > > _Snuff_ throws that joke away, I think. Pterry turned him around, wrote him not as a posh butler who could stab a dwarf dark guard with an ice knife, but as a gangsta who knows words like “primagravida”. Not quite as funny, I thought. I’m not sure I’d go that far, but Willikins was definitely not the same character in _Snuff_, even compared to Sergeant Willikins in _Jingo_. ---
**Author:** ![Tapiotar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/3be4f8/32.png) [@Tapiotar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tapiotar)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2012, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-unseen-academicals-get-any-better/628515/22 "2012-07-18T22:12:28Z")
I’ve never been a big sports fan or followed any teams, but when I read UA, for the first time I emotionally understood why people do care so much for their teams. It was worth the read for that moment when the lights came on for me. It’s not a favorite by any means, but it’s better than Eric or Pyramids. ---
**Author:** ![Anaamika](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Anaamika](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anaamika)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2012, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-unseen-academicals-get-any-better/628515/23 "2012-07-19T14:41:30Z")
> [@Slow\_Moving\_Vehicle](#): > > Okay, but how do you feel about Willikins? He was one of my favorite minor characters, and the joke was that this perfectly-spoken, oh-so-posh butler was a former gangbanger and an accomplished gutter-fighter who wore a hat with sharpened pennies in the brim. The humor was the contrast between his Jeevesian manner and his Vimesian abilities. > > _Snuff_ throws that joke away, I think. Pterry turned him around, wrote him not as a posh butler who could stab a dwarf dark guard with an ice knife, but as a gangsta who knows words like “primagravida”. Not quite as funny, I thought. Agreed…and he was best as a background character, not as one of the main ones. WAY too much Willikins. And then there was Colon, who seemed to be interjected in the story unneccesarily. That jar of soul of tears (I forgot what it was called exactly) had me anxious to know the conclusion and it was practically a throwaway bit. It was one of the first times I was not very interested in any of the main characters and far more interested in the goblins. And I love Young Sam but boy howdy did I get sick of poop. Also, I really thought the Summoning Dark had fled in the previous Vimes book. And yes, the boat journey was far too long and boring. Vimes’ story is essentially wrapped up. He has a wife, a child, a happy home life, and remains a damn good copper. He needs to gently fade into the background now. We’ll always know he’s there, and he can make cameos, but he no longer needs books directly about him. > [@Alka Seltzer](#): > > This seems to be devolving into a general thread about Pterry’s recent works, which is fine by me. I’m glad it’s fine by you, it being my thread and all. 😛 I also liked Moving pictures. I returned Unseen Academicals to the library today. ---
**Author:** ![Alka\_Seltzer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c89c15/32.png) [@Alka\_Seltzer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alka_Seltzer)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2012, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-unseen-academicals-get-any-better/628515/24 "2012-07-19T15:48:34Z")
> [@Slow\_Moving\_Vehicle](#): > > Okay, but how do you feel about Willikins? He was one of my favorite minor characters, and the joke was that this perfectly-spoken, oh-so-posh butler was a former gangbanger and an accomplished gutter-fighter who wore a hat with sharpened pennies in the brim. The humor was the contrast between his Jeevesian manner and his Vimesian abilities. I have mixed feelings about it. He goes from being comic relief to an actual character. It’s not consistent with the earlier Willikins, as **Bosstone** pointed out, certainly not the one from _Jingo_. Can’t see the new Willikins traipsing off to fight for the honour of Ankh-Morpork. Overall, I’d rank _Snuff_ somewhere in the middle of the discworld books. > [@Anaamika](#): > > Vimes’ story is essentially wrapped up. He has a wife, a child, a happy home life, and remains a damn good copper. He needs to gently fade into the background now. We’ll always know he’s there, and he can make cameos, but he no longer needs books directly about him. Yes, I think _Snuff_ was intended as the end of his story. > [@Anaamika](#): > > I’m glad it’s fine by you, it being my thread and all. 😛 Well, I didn’t think you’d mind, given that you’d already decided to stop reading it. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Malleus\_Incus\_Stapes](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/malleus_incus_stapes/32/3293_2.png) [@Malleus\_Incus\_Stapes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malleus_Incus_Stapes)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2012, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-unseen-academicals-get-any-better/628515/25 "2012-07-19T16:12:48Z")
This thread is a great demonstration of YMMV. Best book ever, worse book ever, meh, funny, boring… I’ve always divided Discworld fans in Rincewindists, who read for the jokes, and Vimesists, who read for the message. I know that’s a bit simplistic, but that’s how it seems to me. Most of the people I’ve come across online are firm Vimesists. Me, I’m a Rincewindist. _Eric_ and _Pyramids_ are among my five favorite Discworld books. It’s not that I don’t appreciate a deep theme, it’s just that if a book is mostly jokes I’m totally fine with that. So asking people if \*Unseen Academicals \* is good or bad is going to give you a lot of different answers. ---
**Author:** ![ftg](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ftg/32/2801_2.png) [@ftg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ftg)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2012, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-unseen-academicals-get-any-better/628515/26 "2012-07-19T17:05:36Z")
> [@Malleus\_Incus\_Stapes](#): > > I’ve always divided Discworld fans in Rincewindists, who read for the jokes, and Vimesists, who read for the message. I know that’s a bit simplistic, but that’s how it seems to me. Most of the people I’ve come across online are firm Vimesists. Sorry to break your simplistic ordering. I hate Rincewind, barely tolerate Vimes. I prefer the Susan/Death and “tech” books. And even those 2 categories frequently don’t intersect. And yet another demarcation are the Witches hater/lovers. E.g., there are people who love Wizards and hate Witches. It’s just not that simple. So, for me PTerry’s last great book was _Going Postal_. With _Making Money_ a nice enough book. Then nothing worth reading. _Unseen_ isn’t as bad as _Snuff_. But it just sort of sits there. ---
**Author:** ![Anaamika](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Anaamika](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anaamika)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2012, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-unseen-academicals-get-any-better/628515/27 "2012-07-19T17:10:03Z")
I read Rincewind-style too! I loved Pyramids, too, and I do love the Rincewind books. Me, I can’t (usually) stand Susan Sto Helit. Man, is she full of herself! I only liked Hogfather and that’s because she is not the only main character. And I’m not that fond of the witches either. I don’t think you can divide it that easily. I freakin loved Going Postal - it rocked all the way to my favorite book of his, ever. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2012, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-unseen-academicals-get-any-better/628515/28 "2012-07-19T18:15:28Z")
I love every Discworld book. Pratchett has never disappointed me, since I read _CoM_ in High School. \*UA \*and _Snuff_ are both excellent books - I just finished rereading _UA_ and am now rereading _Snuff_. ---
**Author:** ![Anaamika](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Anaamika](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anaamika)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2012, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-unseen-academicals-get-any-better/628515/29 "2012-07-19T18:24:52Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > I love every Discworld book. Pratchett has never disappointed me, since I read _CoM_ in High School. \*UA \*and _Snuff_ are both excellent books - I just finished rereading _UA_ and am now rereading _Snuff_. Really? Never? There isn’t an author (or a director, or an actor, or anybody) in the whole world I can say that about. Not even my most favoritest. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2012, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-unseen-academicals-get-any-better/628515/30 "2012-07-19T20:13:43Z")
> [@Anaamika](#): > > Really? Never? Yes, never. I like some of his books _less_ than others but I love even those. And I’m including _Carpet People_, _Dark Side of the Sun_ and _The Unadulterated Cat_ in that lot. > [@](#): > > There isn’t an author (or a director, or an actor, or anybody) in the whole world I can say that about. Not even my most favoritest. _De gustibus_. China Miéville and Iain M. Banks are others I could name. I’d almost say Alan Moore but then I’ve not read all his comics for independents. I’d almost say Neil Gaiman but _Batman: Whatever Happened to the Caped Crusader?_ sucked donkey balls. ---
**Author:** ![Anaamika](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Anaamika](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anaamika)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2012, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-unseen-academicals-get-any-better/628515/31 "2012-07-19T20:16:02Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > ._De gustibus_. . Agreed 100%…but I find flaws in everybody, at some point. That’s not to say their good stuff doesn’t move me and wow me, but no one gets my complete adoration. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![cher3](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/da6949/32.png) [@cher3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cher3)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2012, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-unseen-academicals-get-any-better/628515/32 "2012-07-19T21:27:51Z")
> [@Anaamika](#): > > I read Rincewind-style too! I loved Pyramids, too, and I do love the Rincewind books. Me, I can’t (usually) stand Susan Sto Helit. Man, is she full of herself! I only liked Hogfather and that’s because she is not the only main character. And I’m not that fond of the witches either. I’m glad someone else feels that way about Susan. She needs a Nanny Ogg to take the wind out of her sails at regular intervals. The Death of Rats helps, but he’s not around all the time. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2012, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-unseen-academicals-get-any-better/628515/33 "2012-07-19T21:36:47Z")
See, for me Nanny Ogg and the rest of the witches are Pterry’s high point, followed very closely by Vimes (up until **Night Watch**.) I like Susan and really can’t stand Rincewind at all. ---
**Author:** ![Bosstone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/22d042/32.png) [@Bosstone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosstone)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2012, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-unseen-academicals-get-any-better/628515/34 "2012-07-19T22:16:52Z")
The witches barely exist for me. I read the Wizards, Death/Susan, and the Night Watch books mainly. Since this thread is about _Unseen Academicals_, I’ll spoiler this: I think _Unseen Academicals_ can also be seen as a wrap-up of the university, just as _Snuff_ wraps up Vimes. Rincewind is back at the university and been given a position, and I got the sense from the book that nothing’s going to drag him away from it yet. IIRC, Stibbons finally got the acknowledgement (if not respect) that he richly deserves for basically running the whole damn university. I wouldn’t be surprised if UU as described in UA is their Happily Ever After state. ---
**Author:** ![Yllaria](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yllaria/32/3452_2.png) [@Yllaria](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yllaria)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2012, 11:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-unseen-academicals-get-any-better/628515/35 "2012-07-19T23:12:52Z")
> [@Anaamika](#): > > . . . And I love Young Sam but boy howdy did I get sick of poop. . . . I found that part amusing and endearing. But then I keep saying that when I retire I’ll write Science With Shit. So I’d expect others’ mileages to vary. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2012, 12:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-unseen-academicals-get-any-better/628515/36 "2012-07-20T12:38:31Z")
I must admit, personally I find it weird …no, _wyrd_ … that people line up in these camps. For me, the stuff that makes the Witches good, is the _same_ stuff that makes the Watch good, is the _same_ stuff that makes Rincewind good, is the _same_ stuff that makes Johnny Maxwell good. I can’t grok liking, say, Granny Weatherwax and not liking Vimes, I really can’t. ---
**Author:** ![Anaamika](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Anaamika](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anaamika)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2012, 1:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-unseen-academicals-get-any-better/628515/37 "2012-07-20T13:29:06Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > I must admit, personally I find it weird …no, _wyrd_ … that people line up in these camps. For me, the stuff that makes the Witches good, is the _same_ stuff that makes the Watch good, is the _same_ stuff that makes Rincewind good, is the _same_ stuff that makes Johnny Maxwell good. I can’t grok liking, say, Granny Weatherwax and not liking Vimes, I really can’t. And I cannot at all grok liking everything an author writes! I adore Asimov, but I don’t like everything he wrote. Arthur Clarke wrote some stinkers. Tolkien wrote a great yarn but needed to lay off the food porn, man. And Lewis went a little heavy on the religion in his Malacandra series. Yet all great authors. Everyone has flaws, and writes flawed at times. I don’t like when people get too full of themselves and too pompous, which is why Susan Sto Helit doesn’t appeal to me. Out of the witches trilogy I was most like Magrat, the “wet hen”, and possibly have grown up into something similar to Nanny Ogg in temperament anyway. I like Granny…but sometimes she needs someone to slap her down. Rincewind is brilliant, but the wizards are better as secondary characters. By themselves they are the very definition of windbags. 🙂 Vimes and Carrot are far and away my favorite characters. I like them both because both of them are not arrogant or pompous in the least. ---
**Author:** ![Bosstone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/22d042/32.png) [@Bosstone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosstone)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2012, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-unseen-academicals-get-any-better/628515/38 "2012-07-20T15:21:16Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > I must admit, personally I find it weird …no, _wyrd_ … that people line up in these camps. For me, the stuff that makes the Witches good, is the _same_ stuff that makes the Watch good, is the _same_ stuff that makes Rincewind good, is the _same_ stuff that makes Johnny Maxwell good. I can’t grok liking, say, Granny Weatherwax and not liking Vimes, I really can’t. The characters and their quirks don’t interest me as much. Don’t know what to tell you. ---
**Author:** ![Clothahump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/51bf81/32.png) [@Clothahump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Clothahump)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2012, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-unseen-academicals-get-any-better/628515/39 "2012-07-20T15:37:56Z")
The difference between bad Pratchett and good Pratchett is like the difference between good sex and bad sex. Bad sex is still pretty good and it’s better than going without. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2012, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-unseen-academicals-get-any-better/628515/40 "2012-07-20T16:25:29Z")
> [@Anaamika](#): > > Tolkien wrote a great yarn but needed to lay off the food porn, man. De Gustibus again! Interesting sideline - I, in fact, have a mental scale of how well someone writes about food, that factors a tiny bit into how much I like their work. So Tolkien rates a smidgeon higher for me _because_ of the inclusion of food and eating in his work. Gaiman & Pratchett, too. > [@](#): > > Yet all great authors. Everyone has flaws, and writes flawed at times. I don’t like when people get too full of themselves and too pompous, which is why Susan Sto Helit doesn’t appeal to me. Out of the witches trilogy I was most like Magrat, the “wet hen”, and possibly have grown up into something similar to Nanny Ogg in temperament anyway. I like Granny…but sometimes she needs someone to slap her down. > > Rincewind is brilliant, but the wizards are better as secondary characters. By themselves they are the very definition of windbags. 🙂 > > Vimes and Carrot are far and away my favorite characters. I like them both because both of them are not arrogant or pompous in the least. I think the difference is that I don’t have to identify _in the slightest_ with the main character, or necessarily like them at all, to like a book. In the case of Banks and Miéville, liking the protagonist is the exception rather than the rule, even. Although having said that, I do like almost all Pratchett’s main characters - eventually. Moist, for instance, only grew on me halfway through _GP_, and it took until nearly the end of _TT_ for me to like William De Worde - but Susan I loved from the get-go. She’s arrogant because people _are_ so damn stupid, and I agree with her 100%. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-unseen-academicals-get-any-better/628515.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-unseen-academicals-get-any-better/628515.md?page=3)