# Does Welfare reduce Criminality? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 4, 2015, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-welfare-reduce-criminality/724272 "2015-07-04T21:16:18Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2015, 2:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-welfare-reduce-criminality/724272/21 "2015-07-07T02:04:10Z")
> [@cornopean](#): > > Welfare produces criminals. You can’t possibly think that getting free money which you did not earn has a salutary effect on your character. ? Well, I do not think JK Rowling became a criminal when she got help when she most needed. [http://makingittv.com/channel/2014/05/22/how-jk-rowling-went-from-welfare-mom-to-harry-potter-billionaire/](http://makingittv.com/channel/2014/05/22/how-jk-rowling-went-from-welfare-mom-to-harry-potter-billionaire/) But getting away from anecdotes the reality is that most studies out there point at Welfare to be more helpful than harmful. > [@](#): > > ABSTRACT Studies that examine the effects of welfare, specifically the program of Aid to Families of Dependent Children (AFDC), have primarily examined the relationship between public assistance spending and index, or part one, offenses. **In general, the results of past studies have found a negative relationship between welfare and serious crime rates**. [Bold added] [http://www.sagepub.com/walshstudy/articles/section11/Burek.pdf](http://www.sagepub.com/walshstudy/articles/section11/Burek.pdf) There is a slight increase in type 2 crimes, but the papers I have seen make the point that they are more related on how welfare is given, instead of a monthly payment the distribution of it by making it a weekly payment and by debit card has merit. [http://www.voxeu.org/article/welfare-payments-and-crime](http://www.voxeu.org/article/welfare-payments-and-crime) One word of caution, some conservative studies that claim how wasteful welfare is or how inefficient is to deal with crime do not have the straight dope. > **[There's A New Study That Says Welfare Pays Better Than Work — Here's Why It's...](https://www.businessinsider.com/does-welfare-really-pay-better-than-work-2013-8)** > > The Cato Institute is out with an update to their 1995 study which purports to show that, in most states, welfare pays better than work. ---
**Author:** ![Ryan\_Liam](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ryan_liam/32/3965_2.png) [@Ryan\_Liam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryan_Liam)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2015, 10:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-welfare-reduce-criminality/724272/22 "2015-07-07T10:26:47Z")
> [@cornopean](#): > > Welfare produces criminals. You can’t possibly think that getting free money which you did not earn has a salutary effect on your character. ? Poverty produces criminals. ---
**Author:** ![up\_the\_junction](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/f1d935/32.png) [@up\_the\_junction](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/up_the_junction)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2015, 10:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-welfare-reduce-criminality/724272/23 "2015-07-07T10:45:36Z")
Poor education contributes to potential criminality, poor housing contributes to potential criminality, poor social services/family support contributes to potential criminality, absurd, politically motivated laws (war on drugs, three strikes) targetting poor people contributes to potential criminality, etc. Welfare reduces potential criminality. Evidence? Europe - comprehensive ‘welfare’, 1/10 of the prison population of the USA. Num bers approx. ---
**Author:** ![up\_the\_junction](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/f1d935/32.png) [@up\_the\_junction](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/up_the_junction)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2015, 10:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-welfare-reduce-criminality/724272/24 "2015-07-07T10:46:49Z")
> [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > Poverty produces criminals. Unless you’re a banker. ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2015, 11:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-welfare-reduce-criminality/724272/25 "2015-07-07T11:34:58Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > Cite? > > I know you can’t produce one, but I’d like you to at least try. The folks running Cabrini Green really wanted to make sure that men of working age weren’t just hanging around. They worked hard to make sure that no “deadbeat” men were working there including interviewing mothers and their children to learn whether or not dad or some other man was still around. So fathers either had to hide among their own family or they had to find somewhere else to stay. You can Google Cabrini Green fatherless children and find some interviews about the subject. Of course Cabrini Green doesn’t constitute all of welfare it just represents Cabrini Green. I am skeptical of any general arguments that blame welfare for the breakup of black families. The lack of fathers seems to be a problem with lower income people across the board. ---
**Author:** ![up\_the\_junction](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/f1d935/32.png) [@up\_the\_junction](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/up_the_junction)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2015, 11:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-welfare-reduce-criminality/724272/26 "2015-07-07T11:45:05Z")
> [@Odesio](#): > > The lack of fathers seems to be a problem with lower income people across the board. If they’re black, male and in the USA, one third will wind up in prison - which may explain their absence but doesn’t explain why it’s acceptable to pay out all that money to the prison industrial complex but not if it’s ‘welfare’. There are entire communities out there where the ratio of black adult male to black adult female is like 0.7 to 1 ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2015, 1:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-welfare-reduce-criminality/724272/27 "2015-07-07T13:06:54Z")
> [@Construct](#): > > This is a false dichotomy. The goal of reducing welfare is not to increase crime, but rather to force impoverished criminals to get jobs (or just get out of the country, as in the case of gypsies). > > The purpose of the welfare state is bribery, but not in terms of crime. Rather, it’s largely the Left bribing poor people to vote liberal politicians into power using other people’s money as an incentive. It’s not sustainable in the long run to bribe people not to commit crime, because the poor breed like rats and will eventually just resort to increasing extreme hostage taking. The only sustainable long term solution is to brutally force poor people to get jobs or physically remove them from your lands and let them ruin someone else’s country. It’s rare to see someone so openly advocating brutal oppression as public policy. Usually people try to put some kind of fig leaf on it. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2015, 1:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-welfare-reduce-criminality/724272/28 "2015-07-07T13:15:31Z")
> [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > Poverty produces criminals. I don’t think that’s right. Look at school spending pre pupil in places like Washington DC. Look at The Kansas City Experiment, where the students were given best education system imaginable. After kids and gone through the system, zero change. Now while I think inner city schools are largely a moral failing for the country, the main problem is the learning and attitude the kids come to school with. Abigail Thernstrom has written numerous books on the subject of education, particularly in inner-city communities. I saw her on same talk show about a year ago stating that she can tell you with a high-degree of certainty how a kid will do in school by just looking at one thing: she goes to the home and counts the number of books there. So the parents’ attitude toward education is of paramount importance. Raising a child alone makes the whole thing infinitely more difficult. Particularly when the children are boys and there is no father around. ---
**Author:** ![Ryan\_Liam](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ryan_liam/32/3965_2.png) [@Ryan\_Liam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryan_Liam)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2015, 1:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-welfare-reduce-criminality/724272/29 "2015-07-07T13:26:46Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > I don’t think that’s right. Look at school spending pre pupil in places like Washington DC. Look at The Kansas City Experiment, where the students were given best education system imaginable. After kids and gone through the system, zero change. > > Now while I think inner city schools are largely a moral failing for the country, the main problem is the learning and attitude the kids come to school with. Abigail Thernstrom has written numerous books on the subject of education, particularly in inner-city communities. I saw her on same talk show about a year ago stating that she can tell you with a high-degree of certainty how a kid will do in school by just looking at one thing: she goes to the home and counts the number of books there. So the parents’ attitude toward education is of paramount importance. Raising a child alone makes the whole thing infinitely more difficult. Particularly when the children are boys and there is no father around. Interesting, do you come from a one parent family? ---
**Author:** ![Anaamika](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Anaamika](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anaamika)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2015, 1:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-welfare-reduce-criminality/724272/30 "2015-07-07T13:31:47Z")
If welfare causes crime, what do you think happened before we had welfare? When the poor people were just left to rot in the streets? Do you think we didn’t have crime then? Do you think people looked at their neighbors and thought “Ah, well, they earned it, so I won’t just break in and take it?” Do you think crime was just born with welfare? ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2015, 1:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-welfare-reduce-criminality/724272/31 "2015-07-07T13:46:16Z")
> [@Construct](#): > > just get out of the country, as in the case of gypsies Yeah, let’s call them ethnic slurs while we’re about it… > [@](#): > > The only sustainable long term solution is to brutally force poor people to get jobs or physically remove them from your lands and let them ruin someone else’s country. \*“Are there no prisons?” asked Scrooge. […] “And the Union workhouses?” demanded Scrooge. “Are they still in operation?” […] “The Treadmill and the Poor Law are in full vigour, then?” said Scrooge. \*How delightfully Victorian…Bah! Humbug! ---
**Author:** ![Ryan\_Liam](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ryan_liam/32/3965_2.png) [@Ryan\_Liam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryan_Liam)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2015, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-welfare-reduce-criminality/724272/32 "2015-07-07T14:25:33Z")
> [@Anaamika](#): > > If welfare causes crime, what do you think happened before we had welfare? When the poor people were just left to rot in the streets? Do you think we didn’t have crime then? Do you think people looked at their neighbors and thought “Ah, well, they earned it, so I won’t just break in and take it?” Do you think crime was just born with welfare? This is supposition, but I’m of the belief he regards all poor people as born criminals, in a Social Darwinist sense, so why throw good money after bad. ---
**Author:** ![up\_the\_junction](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/f1d935/32.png) [@up\_the\_junction](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/up_the_junction)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2015, 2:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-welfare-reduce-criminality/724272/33 "2015-07-07T14:34:53Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > I don’t think that’s right. Look at school spending pre pupil in places like Washington DC. Look at The Kansas City Experiment, where the students were given best education system imaginable. After kids and gone through the system, zero change. Fwiw, if this is accurate it is the exact opposite of the experience in London in the past 15-20 years. > [@magellan01](#): > > Now while I think inner city schools are largely a moral failing for the country, the main problem is the learning and attitude the kids come to school with. > > \ > > Raising a child alone makes the whole thing infinitely more difficult. Particularly when the children are boys and there is no father around. Just randomly, do you think there is a correlation between single parent families and poverty? ---
**Author:** ![puddleglum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puddleglum/32/137_2.png) [@puddleglum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puddleglum)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2015, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-welfare-reduce-criminality/724272/34 "2015-07-07T14:55:43Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Yeah, let’s call them ethnic slurs while we’re about it… > \*“Are there no prisons?” asked Scrooge. > […] > “And the Union workhouses?” demanded Scrooge. “Are they still in operation?” > […] > “The Treadmill and the Poor Law are in full vigour, then?” said Scrooge. > \*How delightfully Victorian…Bah! Humbug! Union workhouses, treadmills and the poor laws were all attempts by the British government to address poverty by providing make work for the poor. They were forms of welfare. In the the quoted scene Scrooge is being solicited for a donation to fund a private charity for the poor. His reply is that it is the government’s job to provide for the poor and he pays his taxes. The point of the scene is the opposite of what you are trying to portray it. ---
**Author:** ![puddleglum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puddleglum/32/137_2.png) [@puddleglum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puddleglum)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2015, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-welfare-reduce-criminality/724272/35 "2015-07-07T15:05:21Z")
> [@Anaamika](#): > > If welfare causes crime, what do you think happened before we had welfare? When the poor people were just left to rot in the streets? Do you think we didn’t have crime then? Do you think people looked at their neighbors and thought “Ah, well, they earned it, so I won’t just break in and take it?” Do you think crime was just born with welfare? Look at the rate of poverty before welfare. Most of the welfare at the federal level started with the Great Society in the 1960s. The 1960s was also a time of tremendous economic growth and the poverty rate was cut in half during that time. It was also a time of a huge spike in criminality. The crime rate almost doubled during the 1960s. During the great recession poverty went back up to where it was in 1992 but the crime rate was about half what it was in 1992 and one big difference was welfare reform. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2015, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-welfare-reduce-criminality/724272/36 "2015-07-07T15:12:44Z")
> [@puddleglum](#): > > Union workhouses, treadmills and the poor laws were all attempts by the British government to address poverty by providing make work for the poor. They were forms of welfare. > In the the quoted scene Scrooge is being solicited for a donation to fund a private charity for the poor. His reply is that it is the government’s job to provide for the poor and he pays his taxes. The point of the scene is the opposite of what you are trying to portray it. Scrooge was a liberal, IOW. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2015, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-welfare-reduce-criminality/724272/37 "2015-07-07T15:25:18Z")
> [@puddleglum](#): > > Look at the rate of poverty before welfare. Most of the welfare at the federal level started with the Great Society in the 1960s. The 1960s was also a time of tremendous economic growth and the poverty rate was cut in half during that time. It was also a time of a huge spike in criminality. The crime rate almost doubled during the 1960s. > During the great recession poverty went back up to where it was in 1992 but the crime rate was about half what it was in 1992 and one big difference was welfare reform. Correlation does not equal causation, yadda yadda yadda. I note you accidentally dropped the reference to “prisons” in the list of “attempts by the British government to address poverty by providing make work for the poor”. However, you do include treadmills which in Victorian England were a **punishment** , not a form of “welfare” despite your attempts to characterize it as such. But thanks for nailing your flag to the same mast as **Construct**. ---
**Author:** ![cornopean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8c91f0/32.png) [@cornopean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cornopean)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2015, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-welfare-reduce-criminality/724272/38 "2015-07-07T17:47:14Z")
> [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > Poverty produces criminals. Look at this chart. [Crime in the United States - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_the_United_States#/media/File:Property_Crime_Rates_in_the_United_States.svg) Why the sudden spike in crime after the 60s? You blame that on poverty? ---
**Author:** ![Construct](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/50afbb/32.png) [@Construct](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Construct)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2015, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-welfare-reduce-criminality/724272/39 "2015-07-07T18:09:36Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > It’s rare to see someone so openly advocating brutal oppression as public policy. Usually people try to put some kind of fig leaf on it. Yeah, it annoys me as well. I wish people were more willing to state their actual goals, instead of having pointless meta-debates and proxy wars about issues that don’t matter. It’s time to accept that despite massive income redistribution and decades of effort by charities and government, the majority of poor people aren’t really able to make it into the middle class. Those that do generally succeed as a consequence of their willpower and agency, not because of government help. Once we accept this fact, we can begin to devise solutions that help both working people and poor people alike. > [@MrDibble](#): > > Yeah, let’s call them ethnic slurs while we’re about it… > \*“Are there no prisons?” asked Scrooge. > […] > “And the Union workhouses?” demanded Scrooge. “Are they still in operation?” > […] > “The Treadmill and the Poor Law are in full vigour, then?” said Scrooge. > \*How delightfully Victorian…Bah! Humbug! This is how politics works in the West, especially in the United States. One side establishes that a term is bad and then applies the term to their enemies. Republicans call democrats anti-Americans, crypto-marxists, traitors and bleeding hearts. Liberals call their enemies racists, bigots, and troglodytes. Libertarians call their opponents statists and corporate shills. ---
**Author:** ![puddleglum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puddleglum/32/137_2.png) [@puddleglum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puddleglum)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2015, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-welfare-reduce-criminality/724272/40 "2015-07-07T18:15:50Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > Correlation does not equal causation, yadda yadda yadda. > > I note you accidentally dropped the reference to “prisons” in the list of “attempts by the British government to address poverty by providing make work for the poor”. However, you do include treadmills which in Victorian England were a **punishment** , not a form of “welfare” despite your attempts to characterize it as such. > > But thanks for nailing your flag to the same mast as **Construct**. If welfare prevents crime by alleviating poverty then since poverty causes crime there should be a correlation between poverty and crime. There is not which suggests that poverty does not cause crime and welfare does not prevent crime. Unless you can think of a way a cause and effect are not correlated. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-welfare-reduce-criminality/724272.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-welfare-reduce-criminality/724272.md?page=3)