# Does "WOKE" hate the movie Joker (2019)? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [July 17, 2020, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-woke-hate-the-movie-joker-2019/915610 "2020-07-17T20:45:13Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![RaftPeople](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/6f9a4e/32.png) [@RaftPeople](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RaftPeople)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2020, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-woke-hate-the-movie-joker-2019/915610/21 "2020-07-18T19:17:26Z")
My 2 cents: I saw the movie. I was told it was dark and so I was prepared to not like it, but I was really impressed. I liked the complexity/ambiguity of the character tossed around on a turbulent ocean of circumstances pushing him towards his destination. Far more interesting than a one-dimensional bad guy that just wants to rule the universe (for no apparent reason). As it related to reality/culture/society: It doesn’t. It’s just a story about how a bad guy drank the final sip of his own mental kool-aid. ---
**Author:** ![bobot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bobot/32/21622_2.png) [@bobot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bobot)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2020, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-woke-hate-the-movie-joker-2019/915610/22 "2020-07-18T19:27:40Z")
> [@RaftPeople](#): > > tossed around on a turbulent ocean User name checks out. ---
**Author:** ![RaftPeople](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/6f9a4e/32.png) [@RaftPeople](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RaftPeople)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2020, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-woke-hate-the-movie-joker-2019/915610/23 "2020-07-18T19:46:22Z")
> [@bobot](#): > > User name checks out. LOL Note: I have to put this note here because for some reason I can’t just respond with LOL, that’s not enough characters. Someone must own stock in a keyboard company. ---
**Author:** ![Yookeroo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yookeroo/32/323_2.png) [@Yookeroo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yookeroo)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2020, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-woke-hate-the-movie-joker-2019/915610/24 "2020-07-18T21:08:53Z")
> [@Jonathan\_Chance](#): > > There’s always been a strong element in the Trump voter cohort - not a majority by any means, I’m not implying that - that feel they’re losing group and being left behind by the changing of American society. Not a majority? This describes Trump’s cult perfectly. I’d say it’s a tiny minority that doesn’t feel this way. ---
**Author:** ![Asuka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@Asuka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Asuka)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2020, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-woke-hate-the-movie-joker-2019/915610/25 "2020-07-18T21:33:38Z")
The problem with this is that leftists we’re getting up in arms about this BEFORE Phillips even made that statement and before the movie even came out. The pearl clutching beforehand by people is what prompted the idea that “Woke” people didn’t like Joker, not that Joker itself is some film about an incel as others claim. ---
**Author:** ![Asuka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@Asuka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Asuka)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2020, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-woke-hate-the-movie-joker-2019/915610/26 "2020-07-18T22:30:51Z")
Also literally what is that article proving exactly? That WOKE people only hate Joker because they have an axe to grind since the director stated he left comedy due to woke people? How does that invalidate what I said? The fact we had two separate people who admit to never watching the movie but assume Joker is about a heroic incel means the propaganda against the movie worked. ---
**Author:** ![Maserschmidt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/maserschmidt/32/18829_2.png) [@Maserschmidt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maserschmidt)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2020, 12:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-woke-hate-the-movie-joker-2019/915610/27 "2020-07-19T00:37:51Z")
Yes, axe-grinding is very, very annoying. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2020, 1:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-woke-hate-the-movie-joker-2019/915610/28 "2020-07-19T01:12:58Z")
I have seen every DCEU movie except “Joker.” Some I liked a lot (“Wonder Woman,” “Birds of Prey,” “Aquaman,” “Shazam!”), some I thought were middling but watchable (“Batman Versus Superman”), some I thought were dull (“Man of Steel,” “Justice League”) some I thought were just terrible (“Suicide Squad”). (I know “Joker” is technically not part of the DCEU, but I still consider it part of the package. If we extend the umbrella to the Christopher Nolan Batman movies, I put them in the “middling” category.) I chose not to see “Joker” (yet), because I am kind of tired of stories that force me to take the perspective of and possibly sympathize or empathize with a criminal who visits cruelty upon others. I’ve seen enough of that for now. ---
**Author:** ![Jophiel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jophiel/32/66_2.png) [@Jophiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jophiel)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2020, 1:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-woke-hate-the-movie-joker-2019/915610/29 "2020-07-19T01:29:42Z")
> [@Darren\_Garrison](#): > > Over at The Mary Sue they many times complained that the movie was being made, often declared it would be a flop, and weren’t happy when it was a success. [Here](https://www.themarysue.com/jared-leto-joker/) is one sample article. That article has nothing to do with the Phoenix movie and is lamenting plans for a Leto Joker movie, pointing out that Leto’s Joker was panned in Suicide Squad and can’t be something people are asking for. Which, “woke” and “incel” and whatever else aside, is an opinion I can get behind. ---
**Author:** ![Darren\_Garrison](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darren_garrison/32/92_2.png) [@Darren\_Garrison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darren_Garrison)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2020, 2:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-woke-hate-the-movie-joker-2019/915610/30 "2020-07-19T02:53:23Z")
Never actually seen _The Joker_ (or wanted to) so I actually thought the Joker movie did have the actor from _Sucide Squad_. My mistake. [Here](https://www.themarysue.com/joker-women/) [are](https://www.themarysue.com/oh-no-please-spare-me-a-sequel-to-joker/) two of the more relevant TMS articles. ---
**Author:** ![Eyebrows\_0f\_Doom](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eyebrows_0f_doom/32/3119_2.png) [@Eyebrows\_0f\_Doom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eyebrows_0f_Doom)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2020, 4:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-woke-hate-the-movie-joker-2019/915610/31 "2020-07-19T04:10:00Z")
How many times are we going to have to hear from people who have not seen the film criticize it for something it doesn’t do? ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2020, 4:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-woke-hate-the-movie-joker-2019/915610/32 "2020-07-19T04:19:02Z")
Have to? What a burden to bear. Do you propose the use of force to prevent it? ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Crap](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.crap/32/3131_2.png) [@Dr.Crap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Crap)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2020, 6:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-woke-hate-the-movie-joker-2019/915610/33 "2020-07-19T06:30:55Z")
I don’t usually enjoy MCU/DCU movies but really liked Joker. Pheonix’s character reminds me of Travis from Taxi Driver and a little bit like Gollum from the Peter Jackson movies. He’s so vulnerable, so pitiable, and you hope his life gets better despite knowing this isn’t that kind of movie. And then you see how deep rock bottom is… It was very compelling. ---
**Author:** ![Asuka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@Asuka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Asuka)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2020, 6:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-woke-hate-the-movie-joker-2019/915610/34 "2020-07-19T06:49:49Z")
You’re right we should do what people normally do on IMHO and just make stuff up as long as it sounds good. Did you know Australia is the only country in the world to have both beaches AND mountains within hours of each other? Proof it’s the best country in the world to visit! ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Crap](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.crap/32/3131_2.png) [@Dr.Crap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Crap)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2020, 7:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-woke-hate-the-movie-joker-2019/915610/35 "2020-07-19T07:10:06Z")
Come to think of it, I feel like Phoenix played a similarly irredeemable character in The Master (2012) – another captivating movie. It’s completely natural to follow a profoundly troubled character and expect that the glimmers of something positive surrounding them blossom into full-on character redemption. Uncut Gems (2019) also comes to mind. ---
**Author:** ![Darren\_Garrison](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darren_garrison/32/92_2.png) [@Darren\_Garrison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darren_Garrison)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2020, 7:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-woke-hate-the-movie-joker-2019/915610/36 "2020-07-19T07:13:28Z")
> [@Eyebrows\_0f\_Doom](#): > > How many times are we going to have to hear from people who have not seen the film criticize it for something it doesn’t do? If that jab was aimed at me, then I wasn’t critisizing the movie–I was pointing out that a progressive site I read every day critisized it _a lot_. ---
**Author:** ![Darren\_Garrison](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darren_garrison/32/92_2.png) [@Darren\_Garrison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darren_Garrison)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2020, 7:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-woke-hate-the-movie-joker-2019/915610/37 "2020-07-19T07:24:18Z")
[Three](https://www.themarysue.com/death-to-the-joker/) [more](https://www.themarysue.com/joker-aurora-shooting-families-speak-out/) [from](https://www.themarysue.com/todd-phillips-responds-joker-fears-john-wick-different-standards/) TMS. ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2020, 8:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-woke-hate-the-movie-joker-2019/915610/38 "2020-07-19T08:01:59Z")
Honestly I thought this thread would be centered around the depiction of mental illness in the film. Or maybe how the mother was portrayed. ~~I’m pleasantly surprised to learn that it’s about incels and mass shootings~~. Wait, that came out wrong. Strong disagree with **Asuka** ’s characterization of Arthur as “normal”. The film is still a tragedy, but perhaps unlike most tragedies, the protagonist starts out pretty close to rock bottom and ends up way off the deep end. He needed that social worker, even if she hardly did anything except supply his meds. ~Max ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Crap](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.crap/32/3131_2.png) [@Dr.Crap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Crap)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2020, 8:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-woke-hate-the-movie-joker-2019/915610/39 "2020-07-19T08:57:26Z")
> [@Darren\_Garrison](#): > > [Three](https://www.themarysue.com/death-to-the-joker/) [more](https://www.themarysue.com/joker-aurora-shooting-families-speak-out/) [from](https://www.themarysue.com/todd-phillips-responds-joker-fears-john-wick-different-standards/) TMS. Characterizing Phoenix’s Joker as a white guy who fails at stand-up comedy is pretty reductive. He fails at everything except murder. He has no friends. He has no allies save for the anarchic mob, and only because they don’t really know him. Criticizing the movie for possibly inspiring real-life maniacs is like panning a Ted Bundy movie because some people actually like to eat other people. No one in their right mind would want to emulate Phoenix’s Joker. Further, disliking the portrayal of women in a movie, full of assholes, as told by an unreliable narrator seems like an ideologically motivated reach. ---
**Author:** ![Asuka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@Asuka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Asuka)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2020, 9:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-woke-hate-the-movie-joker-2019/915610/40 "2020-07-19T09:58:44Z")
I should clarify by “normal” I meant he wasn’t some incel like others in this topic were saying. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-woke-hate-the-movie-joker-2019/915610.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-woke-hate-the-movie-joker-2019/915610.md?page=3)