# Does "WOKE" hate the movie Joker (2019)? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [July 17, 2020, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-woke-hate-the-movie-joker-2019/915610 "2020-07-17T20:45:13Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![RaftPeople](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/6f9a4e/32.png) [@RaftPeople](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RaftPeople)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2020, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-woke-hate-the-movie-joker-2019/915610/41 "2020-07-19T17:51:08Z")
> [@Dr.Crap](#): > > Further, disliking the portrayal of women in a movie, full of assholes, as told by an unreliable narrator seems like an ideologically motivated reach. I actually wasted the couple of minutes reading that ridiculous article. I think you calling it a “reach” is about the most mild critique that it deserves. If you follow the thinking of that writer to it’s logical conclusion, there is almost no place in any story for circumstances that reflect reality if those circumstances portray some individual that is part of a broader group in a negative light. Every story will be about Ned Flanders and how he mows his neighbors lawn every week out of the goodness of his heart. ---
**Author:** ![Asuka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@Asuka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Asuka)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2020, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-woke-hate-the-movie-joker-2019/915610/42 "2020-07-19T20:47:45Z")
I don’t think it’s that outlandish to say certain people in influential publications just had an axe to grind against Joker for no real reason besides the fact they thought the movie would be a “bad influence”. Type “Joker” into [Vox.com](http://Vox.com) search and Joker literally has six different articles devoted to it in a negative light pre-release, almost all penned by the same author. ---
**Author:** ![Omniscient](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omniscient/32/3290_2.png) [@Omniscient](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omniscient)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2020, 1:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-woke-hate-the-movie-joker-2019/915610/43 "2020-07-20T01:24:35Z")
As if the OPs question were a mirror. In this thread, we have MAGAs vociferously denying that Incels related to the Joker while simultaneously villainizing the “woke” media for misrepresenting it. I think we’ve sufficiently answered the question. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Crap](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.crap/32/3131_2.png) [@Dr.Crap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Crap)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2020, 4:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-woke-hate-the-movie-joker-2019/915610/44 "2020-07-20T04:36:15Z")
Hi, @Omniscient. I see that rather than directly communicating with those who have posted something you don’t agree with in this thread, or simply posting a link that might support a point, you’ve chosen to accuse everyone defending a movie (a movie you have not seen) as being a trump supporter (which I take exception to) while speaking to no one in particular. Would you care to participate in discussion like a normal person? Or should we just close this thread because Omniscient has spoken? ---
**Author:** ![Melbourne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b5e925/32.png) [@Melbourne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Melbourne)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2020, 5:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-woke-hate-the-movie-joker-2019/915610/45 "2020-07-20T05:29:45Z")
> [@LSLGuy](#): > > These movies are teaching an audience mindset that “All we need is a powerful superhero to lead / protect us and all will be well.” The problem is that superheros don’t really exist, so human tyrant wannabes will be the closest stand-ins. Batman is a Fascist hero. But at least in principle, Superman isn’t. Superman is the everyman, who, underneath, is what we need to save America from the Fascists (and their Communist cousins). And probably that’s why Clark Kent’s fascist boss hated Superman. Bruce Wayne isn’t just on good terms with the oligarchy: he’s part of it. Also, Superman is recognizably part of an American literary tradition: a Horatio Alger hero like T. Tembarum, Boy of the Limberlost, or Tarzan. ---
**Author:** ![RaftPeople](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/6f9a4e/32.png) [@RaftPeople](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RaftPeople)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2020, 6:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-woke-hate-the-movie-joker-2019/915610/46 "2020-07-20T06:13:30Z")
> [@Omniscient](#): > > As if the OPs question were a mirror. In this thread, we have MAGAs vociferously denying that Incels related to the Joker while simultaneously villainizing the “woke” media for misrepresenting it. > > I think we’ve sufficiently answered the question. Which posters are MAGAs? ---
**Author:** ![Eyebrows\_0f\_Doom](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eyebrows_0f_doom/32/3119_2.png) [@Eyebrows\_0f\_Doom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eyebrows_0f_Doom)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2020, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-woke-hate-the-movie-joker-2019/915610/47 "2020-07-20T14:33:26Z")
> [@Omniscient](#): > > As if the OPs question were a mirror. In this thread, we have MAGAs vociferously denying that Incels related to the Joker while simultaneously villainizing the “woke” media for misrepresenting it. > > I think we’ve sufficiently answered the question. WTF? Liking a movie, or at least not hating it for false made up reasons makes one a “MAGA”? ---
**Author:** ![RaftPeople](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/6f9a4e/32.png) [@RaftPeople](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RaftPeople)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2020, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-woke-hate-the-movie-joker-2019/915610/48 "2020-07-20T16:04:46Z")
> [@Eyebrows\_0f\_Doom](#): > > WTF? Liking a movie, or at least not hating it for false made up reasons makes one a “MAGA”? Not sure if I’m included in that, but, when I’ve voted, I’ve only voted for Dem presidents (primarily related to possibility of supreme court appointments), I have a very low opinion of Trump etc. etc. and at the same time I think the article I previously posted about was one of the dumbest articles I’ve ever read. And, based on my calculations, there is a 98.279% chance that it’s the dumbest article anyone in my extended family has read over the last 3 generations. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2020, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-woke-hate-the-movie-joker-2019/915610/49 "2020-07-20T18:53:05Z")
> [@Melbourne](#): > > that’s why Clark Kent’s fascist boss hated Superman I don’t recall that Perry White, editor of The Daily Planet, hated Superman. Are you thinking of J. Jonah Jameson, editor of The Daily Bugle, who hated Spiderman? ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2020, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-woke-hate-the-movie-joker-2019/915610/50 "2020-07-20T20:57:34Z")
> [@Asuka](#): > > The fact we had two separate people who admit to never watching the movie but assume Joker is about a heroic incel means the propaganda against the movie worked. Nope. I said I’d HEARD that the joker was presented as an incel-like figure, and everything I’ve heard about the movie supports the idea that he was, indeed, an isolated loser who developed axes to grind and proceed’s to carry out what amounts to an incel’s revenge fantasy. If you think that’s an unfair assessment, fair enough. But the mere fact that I got that information from secondary sources doesn’t mean I’m wrong. Hell, I didn’t even say it’s an objectively bad movie. I just didn’t look to be to my tastes - and, like my understanding of the plot, I haven’t heard anything yet to change my mind about it. ---
**Author:** ![ISiddiqui](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/97f17d/32.png) [@ISiddiqui](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ISiddiqui)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2020, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-woke-hate-the-movie-joker-2019/915610/51 "2020-07-20T21:34:27Z")
> [@Asuka](#): > > Type “Joker” into [Vox.com](http://Vox.com) search and Joker literally has six different articles devoted to it in a negative light pre-release, almost all penned by the same author. I did exactly this and came upon multiple articles indicating how it wouldn’t lead to violence and what the whole controversy is about (including being critical of The Mary Sue): > **[Why Joker is unlikely to inspire real-world violence, explained by an expert](https://www.vox.com/2019/10/11/20906310/robert-evans-the-joker-extremism-interview)** > > The movie sparked worry that its antisocial violence might speak to extremists. Radicalization expert Robert Evans tells us why that probably won’t happen. > **[The fight over Joker and the new movie’s "dangerous" message, explained](https://www.vox.com/culture/2019/9/18/20860890/joker-movie-controversy-incel-sjw)** > > Joaquin Phoenix’s Joker is the subject of a furious debate. The movie hasn’t even been released yet. Now another author didn’t like the film, but this author seems to almost agreeing with some of your points. So… perhaps claiming Vox had an axe to grind is… well an axe you are grinding against Vox? ---
**Author:** ![Melbourne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b5e925/32.png) [@Melbourne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Melbourne)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2020, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-woke-hate-the-movie-joker-2019/915610/52 "2020-07-20T22:43:25Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > I don’t recall that Perry White, editor of The Daily Planet, hated Superman. Are you thinking of J. Jonah Jameson, editor of The Daily Bugle, who hated Spiderman? 🙂 Probably. Weakens the case a bit, doesn’t it … ---
**Author:** ![Omniscient](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omniscient/32/3290_2.png) [@Omniscient](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omniscient)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2020, 12:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-woke-hate-the-movie-joker-2019/915610/53 "2020-07-21T00:15:09Z")
> [@Eyebrows\_0f\_Doom](#): > > WTF? Liking a movie, or at least not hating it for false made up reasons makes one a “MAGA”? Where did I say anything about anyone liking or disliking the movie? The OP did not ask for a review and he did not ask whether the movie was good or not. He did not ask if anyone who saw it liked it or not. He asked what the media narrative around “woke” was and why it had anything to do with this movie. I explained it. Subsequently a bunch of folks decided to cherry pick a bunch of articles that support their opinion that the criticisms were wrong. Which totally misses the point, and in fact reinforces it. The movie is divisive for reasons not related to it’s quality, you can argue whether that point is justified or not…but it’s a fact demonstrated clearly in this thread. ---
**Author:** ![Eyebrows\_0f\_Doom](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eyebrows_0f_doom/32/3119_2.png) [@Eyebrows\_0f\_Doom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eyebrows_0f_Doom)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2020, 1:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-woke-hate-the-movie-joker-2019/915610/54 "2020-07-21T01:25:41Z")
The movie is divisive _because_ the authors of those articles decided it was divisive! And then others who had not seen the film believed those articles as truth. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Crap](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.crap/32/3131_2.png) [@Dr.Crap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Crap)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2020, 6:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-woke-hate-the-movie-joker-2019/915610/55 "2020-07-21T06:17:34Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > everything I’ve heard about the movie supports the idea that he was, indeed, an isolated loser who developed axes to grind and proceed’s to carry out what amounts to an incel’s revenge fantasy. Your secondary sources are wrong. He’s not an incel and he’s not incel-like. He doesn’t have a social media account or speak poorly of liberals. He doesn’t rail against feminism or is depicted as a victim of it. He doesn’t insist on playing video games produced exclusively by men for men with like-minded friends. He doesn’t have games, friends or philosophical notions, and no one in the movie has a mind like his own save for his mother. He’s not a representation of any person or ideology in the real world. If you removed the word ‘incel’s’ before revenge fantasy, you’d be more correct, but you’d also be describing hundreds of other movies. Also, his revenge is not depicted as a good thing. His transformation into a serial murderer is unambiguously bad. It’s a tragedy, not a movie like _Taken_. So why the empathy for this character? Because he’s desperate for human connection and, in the first half, capable of uncommon kindness. He’s childlike. In a city full of assholes, he just wants to make people happy. But he also has a [condition](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pseudobulbar_affect) (among other factors) that repels people and he’s developed a delusional disorder as a coping mechanism. That last bit is revealed to the viewer midway through the movie and it’s crucial to understanding his sense of betrayal. I don’t think it’s the greatest movie in the world. I thought lesser of it any time the source material was mentioned…but the cinematography is very good and Joaquin Phoenix is a tremendous actor. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Crap](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.crap/32/3131_2.png) [@Dr.Crap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Crap)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2020, 9:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-woke-hate-the-movie-joker-2019/915610/56 "2020-07-21T09:26:27Z")
> [@Omniscient](#): > > He asked what the media narrative around “woke” was and why it had anything to do with this movie. Let’s review. What the OP said was: > [@MaverocK](#): > > I came across several videos on Youtube that talks about how “woke” hates the movie Joker. I am not even quite sure what woke means. I read some entries on urbandictionary, and it seems to be somewhat progressive point of view. > … > I didn’t notice any sort of attack or critique on “woke” or “the American left” or any sort of progressive ideology in USA. > > Would you please help me (and those who are confused about it) understand? A narrative stemming from certain media has been presented as the reason for the controversy. > [@Darren\_Garrison](#): > > Over at The Mary Sue… [Here](https://www.themarysue.com/jared-leto-joker/) is one sample article. > [@Asuka](#): > > Progressive sites VOX and The Mary Sue… > [@Darren\_Garrison](#): > > [Here](https://www.themarysue.com/joker-women/) [are](https://www.themarysue.com/oh-no-please-spare-me-a-sequel-to-joker/) two of the more relevant TMS articles. > [@Darren\_Garrison](#): > > I wasn’t critisizing the movie–I was pointing out that a progressive site I read every day critisized it _a lot_ . > [@Darren\_Garrison](#): > > [Three](https://www.themarysue.com/death-to-the-joker/) [more](https://www.themarysue.com/joker-aurora-shooting-families-speak-out/) [from](https://www.themarysue.com/todd-phillips-responds-joker-fears-john-wick-different-standards/) TMS. > [@ISiddiqui](#): > > > [@Asuka](#): > > > > Type “Joker” into [Vox.com](http://Vox.com) search and Joker literally has six different articles devoted to it in a negative light pre-release, almost all penned by the same author. > > I did exactly this and came upon multiple articles indicating how it wouldn’t lead to violence and what the whole controversy is about (including being critical of The Mary Sue): You and **begbert2** described yourselves as mildly woke, disclosed you haven’t seen the movie and explained that - from what you’ve heard - Joker is about an incel. > [@begbert2](#): > > From what I’ve heard, Joker is a movie where the Joker character is basically an incel… > [@Omniscient](#): > > Like I said, I haven’t seen the movie yet, but my takeaway is that the Joker character represents a bit of wish fulfillment for these incels. > … > These incels have turned him into a hero and a role model. So far, no evidence of the movie being _Birth of a Nation_ for incels has been presented. What has? The concerns of bloggers and hearsay based on those concerns by posters who have not seen the movie. Posters who have seen the movie have objected to the characterization. > [@Jonathan\_Chance](#): > > So I can understand the perceived connection to the movie even if I think it’s specious. > [@Enjoy\_Slurm](#): > > Having seen the movie I did not get the impression the Joker was an incel. > [@Asuka](#): > > I really wish people who haven’t actually watched the movie go on dozens of paragraph long screeds about the movies messages and themes. > [@Eyebrows\_0f\_Doom](#): > > How many times are we going to have to hear from people who have not seen the film criticize it for something it doesn’t do? > [@Dr.Crap](#): > > Criticizing the movie for possibly inspiring real-life maniacs is like panning a Ted Bundy movie because some people actually like to eat other people. > [@RaftPeople](#): > > I actually wasted the couple of minutes reading that ridiculous article. You threw this pearl before us swine: > [@Omniscient](#): > > In this thread, we have MAGAs vociferously denying that Incels related to the Joker while simultaneously villainizing the “woke” media for misrepresenting it. And then: > [@Omniscient](#): > > Subsequently a bunch of folks decided to cherry pick a bunch of articles that support their opinion that the criticisms were wrong. Which totally misses the point, and in fact reinforces it. The movie is divisive for reasons not related to it’s quality, you can argue whether that point is justified or not…but it’s a fact demonstrated clearly in this thread. A fact is a statement that can be proven true or false. An opinion is an expression of a person’s feelings that’s not necessarily based on facts. Your explanation of the movie being about an incel is factually wrong. Your assertion that incels have rallied around the character in any meaningful way has so far been unsupported. I think your current position that the discussion was really about the existence of divisiveness is an example of evasion. As for the opinions that you don’t like, the posters who hold them are entitled to them. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2020, 2:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-woke-hate-the-movie-joker-2019/915610/57 "2020-07-21T14:14:21Z")
> [@Dr.Crap](#): > > Because he’s desperate for human connection and, in the first half, capable of uncommon kindness. He’s childlike. In a city full of assholes, he just wants to make people happy. Haven’t seen the movie, haven’t read any articles about it, and don’t really care, but what you describe here is exactly the proto-incel mindset. The idea that by being kind and wanting to make others happy, the world owes you something in return, and you feel betrayed when you don’t get it, that’s at the very heart and core of any incel belief. I can certainly see how those who don’t think that it is their own fault that they are lacking in the human connection that they so desperately want would identify with the character, as you describe him. They usually _do_ have some sort of mental disturbance, which they use to excuse their behavior. Incels don’t start out as assholes, they become assholes as their “coping mechanism” to deal with a world that does not match their delusions as to how it should treat them. ---
**Author:** ![RaftPeople](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/6f9a4e/32.png) [@RaftPeople](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RaftPeople)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2020, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-woke-hate-the-movie-joker-2019/915610/58 "2020-07-21T14:59:55Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > The idea that by being kind and wanting to make others happy, the world owes you something in return, and you feel betrayed when you don’t get it, that’s at the very heart and core of any incel belief. It’s also at the core of just about every human on the planet, the need for love and positive connection with other humans. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2020, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-woke-hate-the-movie-joker-2019/915610/59 "2020-07-21T17:21:57Z")
But not so much the “I’ll start murdering people if I don’t get it,” part. ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2020, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-woke-hate-the-movie-joker-2019/915610/60 "2020-07-21T17:55:05Z")
No, that’s really where the ‘mental illness’ part comes in. I still believe that ‘Joker’ isn’t any form of incel allegory. Instead, it’s a treatise on mental illness and how it warps people. Right from the get-go Arthur Fleck starts the movie out as mentally ill and barely under treatment. What throws him over the edge is close to what k9bfriender mentions, above. We do owe things to each other. Kindness, compassion, help when you need it. Arthur is living in a world where he’s mentally ill but trying. But the world he’s in - which WOW is a 70s noir hellscape - just dumps abuse on him. And he doesn’t have the defenses to cope with that. That lack of support…the societal ‘fuck you, I’ve got mine’…that he can’t cope with is what pushes him over the edge into violent insanity. It’s as much a critique of the culture in which Arthur is operating - I wouldn’t go so far as to say he’s functioning - as it is a character study of mental illness. It does both very well. And I maintain is would have never been made if it didn’t have the Batman connection. Him being the Joker we know of is entirely useless to the plot. But movie’s gotta movie and producers gotta get boners with batman tie ins, I guess. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-woke-hate-the-movie-joker-2019/915610.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-woke-hate-the-movie-joker-2019/915610.md?page=4)