Does your gut say that violent rapists should be executed?

[Aangelica]

@AboutAsWeirdAsYouCanGet

Not exactly. Most date rape has to do with misunderstanding/ miscommunication. The guy thinks that he’s not a rapist and that the woman wants the same thing he does. Some date rape is definitly… fucked up. Like the guy has “Spur Posse” dumbass frat boy overprivilaged white male ideals of sexuality.
Stranger rape however is fucked up. I’m sorry, but nothing can rehabilitate someone who randomly attacks someone they don’t even know.

I actually kind of disagree with this. Both in your assertion that most date rape is all about misunderstanding/miscommunication and about which crime is worse.

I think it’s a warm and happy feeling to be able to tell oneself that date rape is a miscommunication, but I think it’s quite often just so much bullshit. Setting aside cases of buyer’s remorse that end up being reported as date rapes, the concept of “no meaningful consent” just isn’t that complicated a concept to grasp. My three-year old nephew manages it pretty well (albeit in a very different context). Did your date decline sexual activity? Or decline to continue sexual activity? Was your date impaired due to consumption of drugs and/or alcohol? If you’re answering yes to any of those questions, then if you keep going with the sexing, it’s not about miscommunication in even the vaguest way. It’s about you taking what you want regardless of what your partner has to say about it.*

Also, I think it is the mind that can manage to work itself around to hurting someone they know and have some relationship with (even it’s a really, really cursory one) is a less-likely candidate for rehabilitation than that of someone who can manage to work itself around to hurting a total stranger. After all, soldiers have been randomly attacking people they don’t even know since time immemorial - and the vast majority of soliders are fine, upstanding members of their respective societies.

I personally think it’s a worse thing to rape someone you know than someone you don’t - but, as always, YMMV.

/EDIT

Well shit, to answer the OP, which I’d forgotten to do, my gut is apparently opposed to terminal violence for any offense. Interestingly, it’s peachy-keen with fairly gruesome acts of violence against committers of violent crimes (not limited to rape), but no deaths. My brain routinely overrules my gut’s inclination towards gruesome acts of violence, though - which is a fact that guy that bumped me on the subway tracks yesterday and caused me to drop my brand-new book I’d been looking forward to reading onto the tracks can be deeply thankful for.

*Please note, I mean “you” in the generic sense - I don’t think AsWeird is a rapist or condones rape at all.

[villa]

@Starving_Artist

It should be perfectly obvious that a woman who has careless, unthinking sex with four or five scuzzy men a day for $20 bucks or so each, and whose main concern in life is her next score, is going to suffer less from forcible rape than an innocent high school or college student or housewife abducted while on their way to class or the mall. My feeling is that for the crack whores it would be more of an annoyance than anything else, and while you likely wouldn’t think it, I’ve known a few of these types of women fairly intimately (in a non-professional sense) and know at least somewhat how they think.

I know where you are coming from here, and I am going to give it a yes and no. The suffering of each party is different, and it is not possible to say that one group will definitively suffer more.

It may, for example, be easier for the “innocent high school student” to put behind her and move on with her life. After all, she was abducted, and is significantly less likely to eitehr consider she did anything wrong, or to have other people consider she did anything wrong or brought it upon herself.

The “crack whore” on the other hand is mor elikely to be placing herslef in that same position the next night, out of economic necessity. She is also more likely to suffer the same crime again, possibly even by the same man. She is also more likely to be ignored by the police, if indeed she can go to them without being arrested. Psychologically, for multiple reasons, the effect of the rape will be extremely different on both groups of women.

There is a similar result from acquaintance rape. Setting aside, for now, the fact that acquaintance rape can and often does involve equal levels of physical violence to stranger rape, studies show that victims of both kinds of rape suffer PTSD in comparable percentages. Acquaintance rape victims are more likely to blame themselves, more likely to be blamed/disbelieved by the network of friends and family they would otherwise rely on for support (as often that network will know the rapist), and more likely to consider the crime a betrayal of trust.

Bottom line is that it isn’t that simple. All rape has serious effects, and those effects impact different people in different ways.

[Cat_Fight]

@Starving_Artist

Nor does prizefighting make one more prepared for a knuckle-sandwich to the mouth in a bar.

Even if you are consenting to a boxing match, you are still trying to avoid getting hurt, I imagine, and the thrill is from winning, not being beaten to a pulp. When you consent to sex, it is (at least ideally) pleasurable and possibly the source of one of the greatest feelings known to humankind. Not many people enjoy being punched for pleasure, so getting beat up in a bar won’t ‘ruin’ that experience for them*. Being raped, like being molested, forces most victims to associate pain and fear with something from which they should derive pleasure.

*Not to say that being beat up in a non-sexual way isn’t potentially traumatic and life-changing.

[Freudian_Slit]

Comparing having had a lot of sex to being a prize fighter does make me wonder just what kind of sex some of us are having.

@Starving_Artist

And in case you missed it, I do feel you have a good point with regard to creating a sub-class of victims for whom society more or less says “It’s okay, or at least less offensive, if you rape these women instead of more upstanding ones,” and while I’m not sure that most rapists give the class of their targets and their own likely punishment that much thought, I’m still inclined to change my view based on the very good point you raise.

I’m glad that this gave you something to think about. I think it is important, and that despite a lot of progress, it still happens. Not legally, no, but a lot of people do find themselves thinking that certain people bring it on themselves.

[Shodan]

@Freudian_Slit

Because if you’re saying that a prostitute isn’t as affected by a rape because she’s had a lot of sex before, that argument doesn’t make sense. Lots of people have had sex, but rape is a lot more violent and intrusive when it’s non consensual than when someone consents to it.

It’s not just that she has had a lot of sex. It is more that she has had a lot of sex with strangers, under conditions where she is not at all attracted to the person with whom she has had sex, and where she is not aroused. Also that I assume that most crack whores did not pick prostitution as their career of choice, instead of, say, medical school. And therefore has experienced being more-or-less compelled by force of circumstance to have sex with someone when she didn’t really want to.

“I didn’t want to blow the guy, but I need another rock” is somewhat similar to “I didn’t want to blow the guy, but it is better than getting my face punched”, at least marginally. As opposed, almost, to the seventeen-year-old virgin who has never petted below the waist before.

Regards,
Shodan

[Freudian_Slit]

@Shodan

It’s not just that she has had a lot of sex. It is more that she has had a lot of sex with strangers, under conditions where she is not at all attracted to the person with whom she has had sex, and where she is not aroused. Also that I assume that most crack whores did not pick prostitution as their career of choice, instead of, say, medical school. And therefore has experienced being more-or-less compelled by force of circumstance to have sex with someone when she didn’t really want to.

But you could just as easily it’s worse for someone in that situation because they’ve grown to accustomed to something that most people would consider to be inhumane treatment.

Like, it sucks for a well fed middle class person to miss a meal but wouldn’t you feel more sympathy for the person starving to death?

“I didn’t want to blow the guy, but I need another rock” is somewhat similar to “I didn’t want to blow the guy, but it is better than getting my face punched”, at least marginally. As opposed, almost, to the seventeen-year-old virgin who has never petted below the waist before.

If it’s not about sex, why are you comparing the crack whore to the seventeen year old virgin? And not to, say, a woman who’s sexually active but not a prostitute?

[Skald_the_Rhymer]

@Shodan

It’s not just that she has had a lot of sex. It is more that she has had a lot of sex with strangers, under conditions where she is not at all attracted to the person with whom she has had sex, and where she is not aroused. Also that I assume that most crack whores did not pick prostitution as their career of choice, instead of, say, medical school. And therefore has experienced being more-or-less compelled by force of circumstance to have sex with someone when she didn’t really want to.

“I didn’t want to blow the guy, but I need another rock” is somewhat similar to “I didn’t want to blow the guy, but it is better than getting my face punched”, at least marginally. As opposed, almost, to the seventeen-year-old virgin who has never petted below the waist before.

Regards,
Shodan

I have an anecdote that may be a useful counter-argument. I debated about sharing it, but what the hell. This story will not put me in a good light and has some disturbing elements, so if this is your chance to duck out.

First some background. I used to be a horrible shit to women I slept with: manipulative, two-faced, and verbally/emotionally abusive. I will not try to defend the things I did during that period of my life because they are indefensible; I was doing evil things and I’m not going to tell you about most of them.

At one point during this period I met a woman whom I’ll call Mary. Mary was a prostitute and drug user and very vulnerable, which of course I took advantage of. I say user rather than addict because my impression (which could easily be wrong) is that she had not yet reached the point where she could not prevent herself from using if she chose too. It was less that she was supporting her drag habit through prostitution than it was that she was using drugs to ease the degrading feelings about being a hooker. I could be wrong, of course; I’m not a mind-reader and have never used coke or crack, so I don’t know even for my ownself how long it takes to become hooked.

Anyway…Mary had family who lived in another city. Sometimes I toyed with her by telling her that, if she were willing, I would give her help getting back home–pop for a bus ticket, or drive her there on during a long weekend, or whatever. One day I ran into her and she asked me if I were serious, because she really needed to get out of town. She said I was the nicest of the johns she knew, which was only true because I hadn’t yet hit upon a sufficiiently amusing way to fuck with her. It happened to be a long weekend and I had nothing to do, so I agreed, mostly because I thought it would be terribly amusing to drive her halfway and then abandon her on the highway.

So I said sure and told her to get her stuff. She didn’t have much more than the clothes on her back, so into the car we piled and off we went. On the way Mary, still thinking I was a prince of a guy, told me why she had finally decided to get out of Dodge. A couple of days before she had had a john, after she did what they had agreed on, asked her if she were willing to do a couple of his buddies. She said she wasn’t, whereupon he and the buddies forced her. They weren’t especially violent because they didn’t have to be: it was three on one, after all, and all of them were much bigger than she was,anyway. They didn’t have to beat her, just threaten and restrain her. But nonethless she described it to me as the worst experience of her life, bar none, because of the total loss of control: because of the knowledge of her hleplessness. When she had sex with a nice john, like me, she felt in control, almost empowered; but these guys revealed to her what an illusion that was, how vulnerable and powerless she was in these situations–really, almost all the time.

In fact I’m glad that Mary told me this story. See, like I said I was planning on getting my yuks by abandoning her in the middle of the road somewhere. But though I was a miserable fuck back then, I had my limits; there were things I wasn’t willing to do. And after I heard that I didn’t want to be anything like the guys who had done that to Mary. So I drove her the rest of the way and didn’t make her pay for her transport in trade, and when we parted she thought I was a much nicer guy than I was.

In sum: rape doesn’t have to involve huge amounts of physical violence to be enormously traumatizing; and being a professional cock-sucker seems to make things not a whit better.

[Freudian_Slit]

Thanks for sharing that, Skald.

I think that’s part of the reason why this whole “Rape wouldn’t be that bad for a prostitute” thing bothers me. The more people think that, the more it contributes to that, “Eh, no one’s going to be that broken up if I rape/kill/screw with this person.” We shouldn’t just be afraid to rape women whose angry brothers/fathers are going to swear retribution. It should be about treating all women with decency and respect and viewing any assault on a human being as wrong and unacceptable.

I’m the last person to harp on about the evils of patriarchy, but these attitudes are eye opening to me. It does seem very convenient that the women for whom rape is worse (and therefore, whose rapes should be punished more heavily) are the women who have husbands/fathers/brothers advocating for them. The respectable young virgins as opposed to prostitutes.

[Shodan]

@Freudian_Slit

But you could just as easily it’s worse for someone in that situation because they’ve grown to accustomed to something that most people would consider to be inhumane treatment.

Like, it sucks for a well fed middle class person to miss a meal but wouldn’t you feel more sympathy for the person starving to death?

No, I don’t think I would. You can get used to almost anything.

It’s like the old joke -

“I haven’t seen Jim for a while.”

“Didn’t you hear? He fell off his back steps and struck his head on the edge. He has brain damage. He can’t talk or move. He will have to be fed thru a tube until he dies.”

“Gee, that’s awful.”

“Yeah. Broke his glasses, too.”

Making a bad situation a little worse is not always as bad as making a good situation bad.

If it’s not about sex, why are you comparing the crack whore to the seventeen year old virgin? And not to, say, a woman who’s sexually active but not a prostitute?

It is about sex. Rape, to a crack whore, is not as different from her work as rape is different to someone who only has had normal sex, or no sex at all.

I think that’s part of the reason why this whole “Rape wouldn’t be that bad for a prostitute” thing bothers me. The more people think that, the more it contributes to that, “Eh, no one’s going to be that broken up if I rape/kill/screw with this person.”

I’m not saying it wouldn’t be that bad. I am saying the contrast is not as marked.

My great-grandfather underwent a series of amputations (he was diabetic). My assumption is that having another couple of inches cut off his leg was not as traumatic as the first time when they cut off his foot. I am not saying that amputation wasn’t so bad for him at all.

Regards,
Shodan

[Cat_Fight]

@Shodan

“I didn’t want to blow the guy, but I need another rock” is somewhat similar to “I didn’t want to blow the guy, but it is better than getting my face punched”, at least marginally. As opposed, almost, to the seventeen-year-old virgin who has never petted below the waist before.

Couldn’t the same argument be made for raping someone who’d previously been molested or raped, that it’s somehow less traumatic?

[Starving_Artist]

@Cat_Fight

Couldn’t the same argument be made for raping someone who’d previously been molested or raped, that it’s somehow less traumatic?

It could if we were talking about prostitutes or crack whores who’d only had paid sex once or twice before.

[Lynn_Bodoni]

My great-grandfather underwent a series of amputations (he was diabetic). My assumption is that having another couple of inches cut off his leg was not as traumatic as the first time when they cut off his foot. I am not saying that amputation wasn’t so bad for him at all.

I think if anything, it would be WORSE. It’s like “I’ve already gone through this, and I adjusted to it. Now it seems that I’m going to have to do it again, and all my previous suffering didn’t help me avoid this.”

Next week, I’m going to get all of my upper teeth pulled and have to wear an upper plate. I’ve had to have teeth extracted before, but I am very unhappy about this. I’ve also had a tooth worked on, and had a root canal done, and then had to have it extracted. NO, having the damn tooth worked on previously did NOT lessen the anguish of losing it.

[Freudian_Slit]

Plus, there’s no way to objectively quantify someone else’s pain. Everyone is going to say whatever happened to them was awful and painful.

[AboutAsWeirdAsYouCanGet]

Very true…it’s hard to accuratly measure the impact rape has on women.

Maybe I’ll regret this, but… Cite? As most rapes aren’t stranger rapes, that’s a whole lot of miscommunication. (I’m on the fence about the use of the term ‘date rape’ – something about it just implies that both parties were drunk on a date and one ‘went too far,’ when it’s often used to describe any type of acquaintance rape

True, but on the other hand… communicating about sex can be rather …confusing for people. Plus with all the mixed signals that guys receive, it can be hard to figure out how “you’re supposed to act” Heck…a lot of people don’t even know the basics in how to act in a deep emotional realtionship.
I don’t have a hardcore peer reviwed academic cite, but a friend of mine who is a counselor at a rape crisis center says that the major problem with date rape is that the perps do not see themselves as rapists…like they didn’t rape a woman.
I think that with a lot of date rape, it’s not a sociopathic impluse to dominate or hurt. Some date rape might be due to deep seated frustration against women, and the man lashes out at the woman b/c he sees her as a root cause of all the women who have ever created problems for him.

it’s not about miscommunication in even the vaguest way. It’s about you taking what you want regardless of what your partner has to say about it.*

Also, I think it is the mind that can manage to work itself around to hurting someone they know and have some relationship with (even it’s a really, really cursory one) is a less-likely candidate for rehabilitation than that of someone who can manage to work itself around to hurting a total stranger.

No, it’s still about miscommunciation. I think it boils down to miscommunication based on some dudes who are really self centered for whatever reason. They’re so self absorbed or clueless or just so caught up in what they THINK men should do, that they suffer miscommunciation issues.
I honestly don’t think many of the date/aquantance rapes out there are about hurting or dominating someone. … Well maybe some of them are…(ie guys who are angry about something use their dick as a weapon b/c society tells them that sex= power/being a big man.

[Lynn_Bodoni]

I disagree. I think that date rapists rape because they think they can get away with it, and maybe because they think it “doesn’t really” hurt the woman. Until they learn that they CAN’T get away with it, and that they WILL be held accountable, they won’t bother to learn communication skills. Why should they? They’re getting what they want!

[Cicero]

Execute them.

Gut speaking.

[Clothahump]

@Skald_the_Rhymer

I am wondering about our visceral reactions.

Should a person who overpowers, assaults, and rapes another person be executed?

My gut says yes. Or it would if it had a mouth. What about yours?

Absolutely. And it should hurt. A lot.

[Bam_Boo_Gut]

@Cat_Fight

Couldn’t the same argument be made for raping someone who’d previously been molested or raped, that it’s somehow less traumatic?

Can it be argued that it’s somehow MORE traumatic? It’s not something you get used to. I’ll bet there’s a good percentage of crack whores who were at the very least sexually molested prior to their addiction.

My gut reaction? Amputate them at the knees. Let them feel what it really feels like trying to get back up again.

[PatriotGrrrl]

My gut says that would-be violent rapists should be executed on the spot by the person they’re trying to rape.

[Skald_the_Rhymer]

@PatriotGrrrl

My gut says that would-be violent rapists should be executed on the spot by the person they’re trying to rape.

Even my gut won’t go that far. Isn’t it a license to commit murder? (Unless you simply mean to say that defending oneself against rape should be a defense against a murder charge, with which I have no argument.)