# Doesn’t the existence of trans people imply an underlying biological fact of the matter regarding gender? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 7, 2023, 1:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doesn-t-the-existence-of-trans-people-imply-an-underlying-biological-fact-of-the-matter-regarding-gender/979434 "2023-02-07T13:38:37Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 6\ **Page:** 11
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2023, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doesn-t-the-existence-of-trans-people-imply-an-underlying-biological-fact-of-the-matter-regarding-gender/979434/201 "2023-06-26T15:18:14Z")
> [@Johanna](#): > > I didn’t know that! But I did know that the chief mufti of al-Azhar, who has the biggest following in the Sunni Muslim world, has ruled in favor of trans people being legit. That _ought_ to settle it. Alas for the gap between ought and is! Not so much that trans people are “legit” in Iran but much more that homosexuals are completely proscribed, as in, it is a literal death sentence to be gay. If the only options are to be killed or forced to go undergo physical conversion then it is little wonder that deeply and openly homophobic Iran has been so high up the lists in terms of operations performed. Just in case anyone was thinking that good old Iran were some sort of progressive beacon of light. ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2023, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doesn-t-the-existence-of-trans-people-imply-an-underlying-biological-fact-of-the-matter-regarding-gender/979434/202 "2023-06-26T15:19:31Z")
FYI al-Azhar is in Cairo, Egypt. I did specify that it’s Sunni. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2023, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doesn-t-the-existence-of-trans-people-imply-an-underlying-biological-fact-of-the-matter-regarding-gender/979434/203 "2023-06-26T15:26:18Z")
OK, thanks for the clarification. My point about about Iran still stands. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2023, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doesn-t-the-existence-of-trans-people-imply-an-underlying-biological-fact-of-the-matter-regarding-gender/979434/204 "2023-06-26T15:29:10Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > But she was very cranky about how hard it was to do in the US, and commented about it being approved and available in Saudi Arabia. I don’t think that is quite the case. Pretty sure the only such surgery available in SA is for intersex people. I wouldn’t be surprised though to see them take the same homosexual conversion approach as Iran. ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2023, 12:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doesn-t-the-existence-of-trans-people-imply-an-underlying-biological-fact-of-the-matter-regarding-gender/979434/205 "2023-06-27T00:28:55Z")
It’s true that homophobia is extremely bad and oppressive in Saudi and Iran, it’s to be condemned by all LGBTQ peoples in solidarity. Since the topic of the thread is trans people, that was a sidebar. Some trans people are gay, some are hetero, some are bi, some are ace… Sexuality varies freely with respect to gender identity. ---
**Author:** ![nicky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f0a364/32.png) [@nicky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nicky)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2023, 12:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doesn-t-the-existence-of-trans-people-imply-an-underlying-biological-fact-of-the-matter-regarding-gender/979434/206 "2023-06-28T12:26:14Z")
My tedious cishet 2 cents There is a whole bunch of reasons for someone to not want to be in the cis binary dichotomy The existence of this want throughout cultures and times implies some of the reasons are biological. The expression of these wants is constrained by the culture. eg Iran ‘forces’ gay men to be trans women. It would be naive to think The West have got it all right and are perfectly giving all not cis/binary the correct paths to their best chance of happiness. There is no absolute definition of man or woman amd its a fools errand to try to find such. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doesn-t-the-existence-of-trans-people-imply-an-underlying-biological-fact-of-the-matter-regarding-gender/979434.md?page=10)