# Doesn’t the existence of trans people imply an underlying biological fact of the matter regarding gender? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 7, 2023, 1:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doesn-t-the-existence-of-trans-people-imply-an-underlying-biological-fact-of-the-matter-regarding-gender/979434 "2023-02-07T13:38:37Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2023, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doesn-t-the-existence-of-trans-people-imply-an-underlying-biological-fact-of-the-matter-regarding-gender/979434/141 "2023-06-12T20:11:15Z")
> [@AHunter3](#): > > English versus Finnish? Social exposure alone. If you want to say that the _superificial details_ of language are a social construct, okay. But that’s just saying that the aspects that are a social construct are a social construct, and the aspects that are not are not. The structure of human language is not infinitely and arbitrarily variable. ---
**Author:** ![AHunter3](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ahunter3/32/368_2.png) [@AHunter3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AHunter3)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2023, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doesn-t-the-existence-of-trans-people-imply-an-underlying-biological-fact-of-the-matter-regarding-gender/979434/142 "2023-06-12T20:14:48Z")
Ultimately the question of how to define the phrase “social construct” is a hijack, albeit a meaningful and appropriate one. You use the term as you see fit. I’m not going to change how I use it. In order for us to communicate in this thread, we should use other terms, even if only temporary ones. You now understand that I am not asserting that gender (trans or otherwise) has no anchors outside of socially shared notions. But that, at the same time, I am asserting that the specifics (including the existence of transgender identities that one can come out as) could be quite different. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2023, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doesn-t-the-existence-of-trans-people-imply-an-underlying-biological-fact-of-the-matter-regarding-gender/979434/143 "2023-06-12T20:15:27Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > If there’s a link between poverty (which isn’t something just made up out of whole cloth) and disability, then there IS something natural underlying the social construct of disability. Of course not. If disability is a social construct, then those that society deems “disabled” may earn less money. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2023, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doesn-t-the-existence-of-trans-people-imply-an-underlying-biological-fact-of-the-matter-regarding-gender/979434/144 "2023-06-12T20:15:29Z")
I agree with AHunter3. And other than to assert that I didn’t cherry pick anything (I took the first definition I found, which happens to be from a pretty reputable source) I’m dropping out of that discussion. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2023, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doesn-t-the-existence-of-trans-people-imply-an-underlying-biological-fact-of-the-matter-regarding-gender/979434/145 "2023-06-12T20:17:19Z")
> [@AHunter3](#): > > The term is generally not used to mean “has no basis in anything other than culture”. Yes, it is. That’s exactly what it means. ---
**Author:** ![AHunter3](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ahunter3/32/368_2.png) [@AHunter3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AHunter3)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2023, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doesn-t-the-existence-of-trans-people-imply-an-underlying-biological-fact-of-the-matter-regarding-gender/979434/146 "2023-06-12T20:29:22Z")
Regardless of what we call it, I think you and I would agree that very few things are fully disconnected from anything except arbitrary social notions. They may be _mostly_ that but still be constrained by other factors. Consider socially shared notions about what’s moral versus immoral. A culture is unlikely to arise that considers randomly killing other citizens to be a moral imperative, something that everyone should aspire to do in order to be perceived as a good citizen. I am totally with you on the annoyance about “everyone is born a blank slate, our realities are all socially constructed”. Not that I have much tolerance for “everything is genetic” and all that sociobiology stuff. Both extremes are rather ludicrous propositions. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2023, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doesn-t-the-existence-of-trans-people-imply-an-underlying-biological-fact-of-the-matter-regarding-gender/979434/147 "2023-06-12T20:48:49Z")
> [@Riemann](#): > > You’re really claiming that there is an objectively real biological concept of “race” based on skin color? > [@Miller](#): > > Are you claiming that there isn’t a biological basis for skin color? I’m mystified as to how you would infer such an (obviously stupid) claim from what I said. Logically it seems to require the additional assumption that anything that has a biological basis defines a real biological concept of race. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2023, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doesn-t-the-existence-of-trans-people-imply-an-underlying-biological-fact-of-the-matter-regarding-gender/979434/148 "2023-06-12T20:52:30Z")
You appear to be arguing that if something is a social construct it has no basis (ever, at all) in biology. “People who can roll their tongues” doesn’t happen to be socially defined as a race, but it could be. Just as “people who have dark skin” happens to be socially defined as a race currently in the US. AND there is a biological basis underlying skin color. And biological factors that interact with our social concepts of gender. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2023, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doesn-t-the-existence-of-trans-people-imply-an-underlying-biological-fact-of-the-matter-regarding-gender/979434/149 "2023-06-12T20:56:35Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > You appear to be arguing that if something is a social construct it has no basis (ever, at all) in biology. I’ve made clear that I’m saying (with cites) that it is the _definition_ of the term “social construct” (in this context). ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2023, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doesn-t-the-existence-of-trans-people-imply-an-underlying-biological-fact-of-the-matter-regarding-gender/979434/150 "2023-06-12T21:01:02Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > “People who can roll their tongues” doesn’t happen to be socially defined as a race, but it could be. Just as “people who have dark skin” happens to be socially defined as a race currently in the US. AND there is a biological basis underlying skin color. And biological factors that interact with our social concepts of gender. Of course there is a biological basis for skin color. That does not imply that there is a valid biological concept of race that maps to skin color. Of course people with _any_ attribute could be socially defined as a race. That does not imply that any of these attributes map to a valid biological concept of race. ---
**Author:** ![Chingon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chingon/32/17645_2.png) [@Chingon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chingon)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2023, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doesn-t-the-existence-of-trans-people-imply-an-underlying-biological-fact-of-the-matter-regarding-gender/979434/151 "2023-06-12T21:04:19Z")
Technically nothing humans do is outside of the confines of biology. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2023, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doesn-t-the-existence-of-trans-people-imply-an-underlying-biological-fact-of-the-matter-regarding-gender/979434/152 "2023-06-12T21:05:16Z")
> [@Chingon](#): > > Technically nothing humans do is outside of the confines of biology. Sure, but then nothing humans do is outside of the environment. ---
**Author:** ![Chingon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chingon/32/17645_2.png) [@Chingon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chingon)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2023, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doesn-t-the-existence-of-trans-people-imply-an-underlying-biological-fact-of-the-matter-regarding-gender/979434/153 "2023-06-12T21:05:38Z")
Also true! ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2023, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doesn-t-the-existence-of-trans-people-imply-an-underlying-biological-fact-of-the-matter-regarding-gender/979434/154 "2023-06-12T21:21:16Z")
> [@Riemann](#): > > I’m mystified as to how you would infer such an (obviously stupid) claim from what I said. Sorry, I was trying to be clever instead of clear, and failed at both. The post you were responding to stated the there’s a biological basis to skin color. It explicitly noted that social concepts of race attach a ton of non-biological stuff to the concept of skin color. You somehow interpreted that post as arguing that for an objectively real concept of race based on skin color. Which is, plainly, not what was being said - just as you, plainly, were not arguing against a biological basis for skin color. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2023, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doesn-t-the-existence-of-trans-people-imply-an-underlying-biological-fact-of-the-matter-regarding-gender/979434/155 "2023-06-12T21:53:03Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > The post you were responding to stated the there’s a biological basis to skin color. It explicitly noted that social concepts of race attach a ton of non-biological stuff to the concept of skin color. You somehow interpreted that post as arguing that for an objectively real concept of race based on skin color. But the post I replied to did not just say “there’s a biological basis to skin color”, it said > [@puzzlegal](#): > > Of course race has anchors in biological reality. Some people have darker skin… ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2023, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doesn-t-the-existence-of-trans-people-imply-an-underlying-biological-fact-of-the-matter-regarding-gender/979434/156 "2023-06-12T21:55:18Z")
> [@Riemann](#): > > But the post I replied to did not just say “there’s a biological basis to skin color”, it said You can get a lot of different meanings out of a post when you only quote one and a half sentences from it. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2023, 11:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doesn-t-the-existence-of-trans-people-imply-an-underlying-biological-fact-of-the-matter-regarding-gender/979434/157 "2023-06-12T23:15:38Z")
> [@Riemann](#): > > It’s not about _whether_ someone can feel they belong at a non-cis-binary point on the spectrum of gender identity, obviously they can. The point raised by OP is _why_ they feel that way. That’s not how I read the OP. To me it appeared to be that feeling that way proves something that negates the whole concept of gender being less than concrete and binary ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2023, 12:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doesn-t-the-existence-of-trans-people-imply-an-underlying-biological-fact-of-the-matter-regarding-gender/979434/158 "2023-06-13T00:17:44Z")
Thanks. Yes race is a social construct which, like many other social constructs, starts with a basis in the physical world and then builds a lot of other baggage onto that underlying physical thing. So, in the US, it starts with skin color and geographic heritage, ignoring that skin color is a continuum and humans cross-breed every which way, and slices people into constructed “races”, which are then often viewed as distinct from each other. And that creates a social reality that has real-world implications for the people who get lumped into each category. ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2023, 1:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doesn-t-the-existence-of-trans-people-imply-an-underlying-biological-fact-of-the-matter-regarding-gender/979434/159 "2023-06-13T01:54:54Z")
> [@Mangetout](#): > > it was simply: I’m here. I think I belong over there. That’s really it. You’ve gotten it exactly right. My explanation for it is: Did you ever by mistake put your right shoe on your left foot and left shoe on your right foot? Remember how weird that felt? If you walked a mile like that, it would harm your feet. Here’s the key fact: There’s nothing wrong with your shoes and there’s nothing wrong with your feet. It’s just the mismatch that’s the problem. Likewise, there’s nothing wrong with my mind and nothing wrong with my body, but the mismatch produces suffering. ---
**Author:** ![AHunter3](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ahunter3/32/368_2.png) [@AHunter3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AHunter3)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2023, 1:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doesn-t-the-existence-of-trans-people-imply-an-underlying-biological-fact-of-the-matter-regarding-gender/979434/160 "2023-06-13T13:14:18Z")
I had one of those too. Different, but similar and parallel. I had a mismatch between who everyone thought I was, based on seeing that I was a male kid, and who I actually was, which was clearly one of the girls. I’m not trans like Johanna \*. I rejected the notion that my body needed to be female in order for me to be one of the girls. It’s like a gay guy rejecting the notion that, in order to be attracted to male people, he should have been born female. But yeah the mismatch produced a lot of suffering. Especially before I fully figured it out. - ETA: I’ve been told multiple times that ‘transgender’ is an ‘umbrella’ identity that covers folks like me as well. But how I am is not what people think of when you say “transgender” so I strongly prefer “genderqueer”. But we’re allies. The shit my transgender sisters are having to put up with from the right wing these days is ridiculous and hateful. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doesn-t-the-existence-of-trans-people-imply-an-underlying-biological-fact-of-the-matter-regarding-gender/979434.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doesn-t-the-existence-of-trans-people-imply-an-underlying-biological-fact-of-the-matter-regarding-gender/979434.md?page=9)