# Doesn't it feel good to have a Big Brother watching out for you? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [March 27, 2001, 6:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doesnt-it-feel-good-to-have-a-big-brother-watching-out-for-you/59657 "2001-03-27T06:54:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Mysphyt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/dbc845/32.png) [@Mysphyt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mysphyt)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2001, 6:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doesnt-it-feel-good-to-have-a-big-brother-watching-out-for-you/59657/1 "2001-03-27T06:54:26Z")
I’ve said it before, and I’ll say it again: YAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARGH! A friend of mine has a brother in high school. That brother is a little weird, but who isn’t? That brother also thinks, which is much more rare than oddity. The brother in question is also a poet. Desiring to show a topic from another perspective, he wrote [this poem](http://www.poetrydatabase.com/searchpoem.asp?poemid=825). The poem in question identifies, to a degree, with school shooters, much like–though less overtly–[this thread.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=62837) The difference is, Jeremy’s Evil Twin has yet to be pursued by authority figures. Sean was only barely not expelled for writing this poem. The poem is not connected in any way to any school-related site, but yea, the school district saw fit to suspend him for four days for . . . thinking. Yes, ladies and gentlemen of the government, people think! I know it’s an incredibly difficult concept for many of you to comprehend, but there are indeed people who can make full use of their mental faculties! Oh, now I wish I hadn’t said that, because you politicians adhere to the Neanderthal theory of negotiation: that is, if it doesn’t do what I want, hit it with something heavy. Take, for instance, the student from Reedley High who was wronged to a degree by a fellow student and mentioned, in passing, to a friend, “well, he’s on the hit list.” For using a figure of speech, this kid was arrested for “making terrorist threats.” Did they find an actual list? Of course not. But because he said the words, he was arrested. (For confirmation, check [this site.](http://www.fresnobee.com/searchSite/0,1906,249372,00.html) It’s not the main story, but is mentioned in passing toward the bottom. Best I could find for you.) So, powers that be, I confess. I am guilty. There are people I don’t like. I know that this should send me to the firing squad, but so be it. Oddly enough, the same friend’s _other_ brother got suspended a couple of years ago–right after Columbine–because he mentioned the fact that it’s possible to find out how to make a bomb on the internet. They searched his locker–“Constitution, schmonstitution”–and threatened him with various other forms of punishment, including expulsion. I may be out of place for saying it, but _ **WHAT THE BLOODY HECK IS GOING ON HERE???** _ If this was a government of any other country acting in this way toward its subjects, we’d be outraged. The President would be appaled at the blatant denial of human rights, and would probably make some sort of a speech, and possibly send troops. Maybe not, but somebody’d be up in arms. But no, since it’s our own school system, which for some reason believes itself to have the right to act _in loco parentis_, everything’s friggin’ dandy. Never mind that there are _parents_ present to act _in loco parentis,_ they don’t get to do their own job. We have to police the thoughts of our youth. Because if we’re not careful, they’ll be getting Ideas, and we simply can’t be having with that. I should go. At this point, there’re probably several strike forces on the way to my house. ---
**Author:** ![SPOOFE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c5a1d2/32.png) [@SPOOFE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SPOOFE)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2001, 7:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doesnt-it-feel-good-to-have-a-big-brother-watching-out-for-you/59657/2 "2001-03-27T07:01:02Z")
I’m still trying to figure out how the fuck a “paper gun” equals “terrorist threats”. Yup. Stuff’s fucked up. And I blame hasty kneejerk reactionaries who hear the word “Gun” and immediately piss their pants. [/editorial] ---
**Author:** ![Enderw24](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ba9def/32.png) [@Enderw24](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enderw24)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2001, 8:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doesnt-it-feel-good-to-have-a-big-brother-watching-out-for-you/59657/3 "2001-03-27T08:20:04Z")
Mysphyt, I’m going to have to disagree with you here. I read the poem and it does seem vaguely disconcerting. We have to face facts here. We live in an age where guns are only a short waiting period away. Where any kid can get nearly any gun if he’s determined enough. Where school shootings do happen on a regular basis. And where phrases like “we heard him make threats, but we thought he was just joking…” are thrown around after each shooting. Schools have an enourmous pressure put on them to make sure the kids actually come home at the end of the day. When people are killed everyone looks towards the administrators, teachers, and councelors to see just how they screwed up. Even if they didn’t actually screw up, they will be viewed as having screwed up. If only they had known… Here we have proof of someone who is thinking like a killer. Is that a bad thing? Most of the time, probably not. But if your friend’s brother does, in fact, go through with the actions described in the poem, you and I can both see the shit hitting the fan as the press sees in black and white that they knew he had violent tendencies and did nothing. I’m not saying the suspension was the right decision. Heck, taking him out of school for four days solves diddly squat. I’m certainly not advocating the violation of our constitutional rights to free speech. But there are limits. Write a poem on sending a bomb onto an airplane, and that’s one less person that will take my aisle seat. ---
**Author:** ![SPOOFE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c5a1d2/32.png) [@SPOOFE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SPOOFE)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2001, 8:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doesnt-it-feel-good-to-have-a-big-brother-watching-out-for-you/59657/4 "2001-03-27T08:28:08Z")
Ender… you should read some of my poetry sometime… ---
**Author:** ![absoul](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/bc8723/32.png) [@absoul](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/absoul)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2001, 8:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doesnt-it-feel-good-to-have-a-big-brother-watching-out-for-you/59657/5 "2001-03-27T08:34:18Z")
Wow, I read through the poem and noticed that it was full of… teen angst. Good poem by the way, I was transported back into my high school years. ::shudder:: ---
**Author:** ![Mysphyt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/dbc845/32.png) [@Mysphyt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mysphyt)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2001, 8:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doesnt-it-feel-good-to-have-a-big-brother-watching-out-for-you/59657/6 "2001-03-27T08:48:56Z")
Ender– Paraphrase, but “He who would sacrifice a little freedom for a little security deserves neither.” – Benjamin Franklin. ---
**Author:** ![Protesilaus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Protesilaus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Protesilaus)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2001, 8:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doesnt-it-feel-good-to-have-a-big-brother-watching-out-for-you/59657/7 "2001-03-27T08:48:58Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Enderw24 \* > \*\*But if your friend’s brother does, in fact, go through with the actions described in the poem, you and I can both see the shit hitting the fan as the press sees in black and white that they knew he had violent tendencies and did nothing. \*\* It’s not just the press. Can you imagine the lawsuits from the victims’ families if that happened? IANAL, but if they could prove that the school administrators saw that and did nothing, the school would probably be in deep shit. Sean’s punishment looks like a CYA measure more than anything else to me. What’s the proper solution? How should the school deal with situations like that? I don’t know. And I’m going to have to agree with **Ender** , the poem was vaguely disconcerting to me too. ---
**Author:** ![matt\_mcl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ab992/32.png) [@matt\_mcl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/matt_mcl)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2001, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doesnt-it-feel-good-to-have-a-big-brother-watching-out-for-you/59657/8 "2001-03-27T14:20:18Z")
Unfortunately for that train of thought, your constitution requires you (as does ours) to put up with thought and artistic expression, no matter how disconcerting. ---
**Author:** ![Geobabe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/geobabe/32/3908_2.png) [@Geobabe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Geobabe)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2001, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doesnt-it-feel-good-to-have-a-big-brother-watching-out-for-you/59657/9 "2001-03-27T14:56:06Z")
The problem, I think, is that schools are under tremendous pressure from parents and others to “DO SOMETHING!” but are not given sufficient resources to adequately deal with the problem. There is also a tendency among some in our society to treat all “abnormal” behavior as criminal (e.g. jailing people for drug addiction rather than providing treatment) rather than attempt to take the more difficult but ultimately more rewarding course of helping people. Lots of kids are troubled but only a very few will actually become violent. I think that punishing kids for expressing their thoughts is only going to make the problem worse. If I were a troubled teen–and in many ways I was–I’m sure I would interpret a suspension for writing a poem about what was going on in my head as confirmation that I was just a bad person, and figure, well, I might as well act on it. BUT, to provide proper evaluation and help for these kids would require a great deal of money and time that the schools just don’t have. And apparently, many of the parents don’t want to see that their kids are screwed up becasue that might imply that they are not doing their job as parents. Sigh. ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2001, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doesnt-it-feel-good-to-have-a-big-brother-watching-out-for-you/59657/10 "2001-03-27T15:03:14Z")
> [@](#): > > They’ll soon know their own mortality > > But reality will soon spell their death > Death is already my reality > > I tell of my revenge through these creeds > Are they impossible delusions of a maniac? > I’ll tell you now, so be forewarned > I may well go through with my plan > For my dent in history I will be scorned Now, who could possibly read these word and see an implied threat of violence? Hmmmmmmmm. This, if published, _is_, **IS** a threat of violence. Whether the kid actually plans to kill or not, that message comes through plain as day. This in not a free speech issue. Terroristic threats are _not_ covered by the 1st Amendment. The irony is, being expelled and villified is just what the little puke wanted. ---
**Author:** ![Enderw24](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ba9def/32.png) [@Enderw24](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enderw24)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2001, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doesnt-it-feel-good-to-have-a-big-brother-watching-out-for-you/59657/11 "2001-03-27T15:13:30Z")
not entirely true Matt\_mcl, the constitution does not give us blanket rights over freedom of speech. You cannot yell fire in a crowded theatre. The constitution does not give us blanket rights over freedom of the press. High school papers can and have been censored by principals who feel certain topics aren’t appropriate. This isn’t about an editor overruling the writer, this is an outside authority figure imposing his or her will over 1st amendment…and it’s supported by law. For better or for worse (and in most cases I do feel it’s worse), minors do not have the same rights as adults. mysphyt, “He that blows the coals in quarrels that he has nothing to do with, has no right to complain if the sparks fly in his face.” Benjamin Franklin ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2001, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doesnt-it-feel-good-to-have-a-big-brother-watching-out-for-you/59657/12 "2001-03-27T15:25:59Z")
I’d also have to disagree, Matt. I can’t speak to Canadian law but it’s well established that minors do not have the same freedom of speech and action that adults do in the United States. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2001, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doesnt-it-feel-good-to-have-a-big-brother-watching-out-for-you/59657/13 "2001-03-27T15:26:04Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by spooje \* > \*\* > > This, if published, _is_, **IS** a threat of violence. Whether the kid actually plans to kill or not, that message comes through plain as day. This in not a free speech issue. Terroristic threats are _not_ covered by the 1st Amendment. > \*\* And of course, we can’t have poetry dealing with violent themes. You might end up with something like this: [http://www.contemplator.com/folk2/battle.html](http://www.contemplator.com/folk2/battle.html) or this: [http://www.uv.es/~pla/red.net/intaoter.html](http://www.uv.es/~pla/red.net/intaoter.html) God knows that’s not appropriate! ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2001, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doesnt-it-feel-good-to-have-a-big-brother-watching-out-for-you/59657/14 "2001-03-27T15:37:43Z")
Christ, **inor** was banned for threats against people he had never seen. Say you’re at work, and you’re a network programmer. Someone from another department in your company writes a poem which includes lines ‘One day soon, one of the programmers will feel the wrath, reality will soon spell their death’. Would you feel a little nervous walking to the parking lot after work? Would you consider that the expressing of an idea, or a threat against your life? ---
**Author:** ![Protesilaus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Protesilaus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Protesilaus)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2001, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doesnt-it-feel-good-to-have-a-big-brother-watching-out-for-you/59657/15 "2001-03-27T16:54:39Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Captain Amazing \* > \*\* > > > [@](#): > > > > \*Originally posted by spooje \* > > \*\* > > > > This, if published, _is_, **IS** a threat of violence. Whether the kid actually plans to kill or not, that message comes through plain as day. This in not a free speech issue. Terroristic threats are _not_ covered by the 1st Amendment. > > \*\* > > And of course, we can’t have poetry dealing with violent themes. You might end up with something like this: > [http://www.contemplator.com/folk2/battle.html](http://www.contemplator.com/folk2/battle.html) > > or this: > [http://www.uv.es/~pla/red.net/intaoter.html](http://www.uv.es/~pla/red.net/intaoter.html) > > God knows that’s not appropriate! \*\* You really don’t see a difference? I’m rather curious as to what is so violent in the lyrics of “Battle Hymn of the Republic” anyway. Sure, it was written during a war and sung by soldiers, but where are the violent themes? It’s mostly about the righteousness of God. Do you mean, “He hath loosed the fateful lightning / Of His terrible swift sword”? How about “Let the Hero born of woman / Crush the serpent with His heel, / Since God is marching on.”? That’s all the violence there is, God’s sword and crushing serpents. I don’t see how that’s the same as the lines quoted by **spooje’s** first post, unless you think Julia Ward Howe either believed she was God or really, really hated snakes. ---
**Author:** ![Mysphyt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/dbc845/32.png) [@Mysphyt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mysphyt)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2001, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doesnt-it-feel-good-to-have-a-big-brother-watching-out-for-you/59657/16 "2001-03-27T16:57:27Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by Enderw24_ > High school papers can and have been censored by principals who feel certain topics aren’t appropriate. Just because it has been done doesn’t mean it ought to be done. This particular issue also gets me riled up. > [@](#): > > _Originally posted by spooje_ > Christ, inor was banned for threats against people he had never seen. According to TubaDiva, > [@](#): > > _From [this thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=64848)_. > I removed his privileges as he requested. THEN I found out about the last posts he made before his request, **most especially about where he was told by staff to modify his behavior and decided not to.** Emphasis mine. The primary issue was the fact that inor defied the will of the mods, which is unacceptable. > [@](#): > > _Originally posted by geobabe_ > The problem, I think, is that schools are under tremendous pressure from parents and others to “DO SOMETHING!” but are not given sufficient resources to adequately deal with the problem. You’re right, but I think they’re doing the wrong things. Esp. in this sort of a case, where somebody’s taking actions which can be interpreted as threats. Let’s kick him out of our school, so that he’ll be even angrier. Let’s remove him from contact with the people he has problems with, so he’s free to dehumanize them even more. The punishment totally doesn’t fit the crime, esp. suspension. As to what can be done, there are actions that could be taken that would, I believe, almost completely eliminate this phenomenon without cost. The problem is that it would require the school districts to be responsible for themselves, acknowledge a problem in the system, and have the dignity to deal with it[sup]1[/sup]. The worst part of it is that he was encouraged to write this poem by several of his teachers. Only one of them’s owning up now. [sub][sup]1[/sup]Psychologist Elliot Aronson claims, in _THe Human Animal_, the traditional model of education fosters competition, dislike, and tension between students even at an elementary level. I am of the opinion that this is the main cause for the incidents we’ve seen. I mean–I know we’ve seen the occasional isolated incident–we haven’t seen this big a streak of mall shootings, or city hall shootings. But it’s so much easier for the districts to blame Marilyn Manson.[/sub] ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2001, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doesnt-it-feel-good-to-have-a-big-brother-watching-out-for-you/59657/17 "2001-03-27T17:02:42Z")
Spooje, First of all, the guy wrote the poem on his own time, and posted it on a site not related to the school. It was intended as a poem, and also not directed against any individual. I mean, if I wrote a poem titled “Spooje must die and here is how I will kill him”, that’s one thing, but the kid didn’t do that. He wrote (an admittedly bad) poem not directed against any specific individual…just the “people passing in the hall” Poetry often uses violent imagery to make its point. Unless the school had some evidence that the kid was a danger to himself or others (other than the poem), their actions were inappropriate. ---
**Author:** ![Protesilaus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Protesilaus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Protesilaus)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2001, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doesnt-it-feel-good-to-have-a-big-brother-watching-out-for-you/59657/18 "2001-03-27T17:09:50Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by matt\_mcl \* > \*\*Unfortunately for that train of thought, your constitution requires you (as does ours) to put up with thought and artistic expression, no matter how disconcerting. \*\* To a limit. If I were to write a letter about murdering a group of people and then publish it on the internet, I’d be in big trouble. Putting those thoughts in rhyming verse doesn’t magically make it okay. ---
**Author:** ![Protesilaus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Protesilaus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Protesilaus)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2001, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doesnt-it-feel-good-to-have-a-big-brother-watching-out-for-you/59657/19 "2001-03-27T17:21:58Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Captain Amazing \* > \*\*Spooje, > First of all, the guy wrote the poem on his own time, and posted it on a site not related to the school. It was intended as a poem, and also not directed against any individual. I mean, if I wrote a poem titled “Spooje must die and here is how I will kill him”, that’s one thing, but the kid didn’t do that. He wrote (an admittedly bad) poem not directed against any specific individual…just the “people passing in the hall” \*\* Mostly, my comments to **matt\_mcl** apply here too. You can’t say anything in poetry you couldn’t legally say in prose. Just because he doesn’t mention specific names doesn’t mean it doesn’t mention who the threat is against, namely, his classmates. If you replace “people passing in the hall” with “blacks” or “Jews” or “homosexuals” or whatever group you want, you can more clearly see why mentioning that you want to kill unspecified members of an explicitly mentioned group is still wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Mysphyt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/dbc845/32.png) [@Mysphyt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mysphyt)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2001, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doesnt-it-feel-good-to-have-a-big-brother-watching-out-for-you/59657/20 "2001-03-27T17:28:16Z")
How about, say, Eminem? He’s more or less making a living by threatening people, even individuals, in a very public forum. How about Malcolm X? His constant appeals to violence created great leaps forward in the civil rights movement. Admittedly, it got him killed, but that’s not really what you’re addressing. > [@](#): > > _Originally posted by Protestilaus_ > You can’t say anything in poetry you couldn’t legally say in prose. Ah, so it’s now illegal to say “People at school treat me poorly, if something isn’t done, I’ll have no recourse but to fight back?” I admit, the addition of arbitrary line breaks doesn’t make something more legal, but I don’t think the content is illegal in the first place. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doesnt-it-feel-good-to-have-a-big-brother-watching-out-for-you/59657.md?page=2)