# Doesn't Most Wondrous Biblical Wisdom Seem Like Common Sense? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 18, 2017, 2:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doesnt-most-wondrous-biblical-wisdom-seem-like-common-sense/796633 "2017-09-18T14:02:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![TonySinclair](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/49beb7/32.png) [@TonySinclair](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TonySinclair)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2017, 2:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doesnt-most-wondrous-biblical-wisdom-seem-like-common-sense/796633/101 "2017-09-20T02:13:27Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > The Sermon on the Mount is actually reasonably humanist, in that it says, “Be good to each other.” It doesn’t invoke a lot of heaven or hell, but talks about brotherhood, forgiveness, and good behavior. The “two great laws” that Jesus gave — love God with all your heart and soul, and love your neighbor as yourself — were taken from the Torah, so you can’t credit Jesus for those. What does seem original are the parts that virtually nobody but a few fringe cults like Mennonites observe — strict non-violence, returning good for evil, etc. Most red-blooded Christians today, in fact most people with any common sense, believe in punishing evil. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2017, 4:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doesnt-most-wondrous-biblical-wisdom-seem-like-common-sense/796633/102 "2017-09-20T04:35:08Z")
> [@TonySinclair](#): > > Even if you can weasel your way around Jesus saying not an iota of the Law would be invalid until heaven and earth passed away, even if you don’t feel bound (which I realize is a mainstream Christian position, and one of many reasons I have so little respect for mainstream Christian theology), it should concern you. _For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished._ His Crucifixion and Rising was everything that needed to be accomplished. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2017, 4:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doesnt-most-wondrous-biblical-wisdom-seem-like-common-sense/796633/103 "2017-09-20T04:44:23Z")
> [@TonySinclair](#): > > So did Roman slaves. And the Bible absolutely endorsed chattel slavery: > > Leviticus 25, KJV: > "45 Moreover of the children of the strangers that do sojourn among you, of them shall ye buy, and of their families that are with you, which they begat in your land: and they shall be your possession. > > 46 And ye shall take them as an inheritance for your children after you, to inherit them for a possession; they shall be your bondmen for ever: but over your brethren the children of Israel, ye shall not rule one over another with rigour." > > So you couldn’t make chattel slaves of your fellow Hebrews, but no problemo doing it for foreigners. Once you bought them, they were your slaves forever, and if you died, your children inherited them. Yes. There were two types of slaves in Israel: Debt slaves, who had be be freed after 3-6 year. You get in debt, you work it off. Hardly evil. Many laws and customs protected them. Prisoners of war, who were slaves until they converted to Judaism. You lose a battle in ancient days they had two choices- kill you or enslave you. Or maybe you could be ransomed if your family had money. Not very nice but the alternatives were worse. ---
**Author:** ![TonySinclair](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/49beb7/32.png) [@TonySinclair](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TonySinclair)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2017, 5:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doesnt-most-wondrous-biblical-wisdom-seem-like-common-sense/796633/104 "2017-09-20T05:38:48Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > _For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished._ > > His Crucifixion and Rising was everything that needed to be accomplished. You sound exactly like Trump telling the faithful that repairing sections of the border fence at taxpayer expense fulfills his promise of building a wall that Mexico will pay for. As you quoted, Jesus said until \*\*\*everything \*\*\*is accomplished. If you had included a bit more of the passage, you would see that it’s referring to the Law AND the Prophets being fulfilled. There is nothing in the Law or the Prophets about crucifixion and resurrection, so even if you believe they happened, they didn’t fulfill anything. However, there is a boatload in the Prophets about a Messiah who drives the invaders out of Israel, ushering in an age of universal peace and brotherhood, e.g. “They shall beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning hooks; nation will not lift sword against nation and they will no longer study warfare.” or “The wolf will live with the lamb, the leopard will lie down with the goat, the calf and the lion and the yearling together; and a little child will lead them. The cow will feed with the bear, their young will lie down together, and the lion will eat straw like the ox. The infant will play near the hole of the cobra, and the young child put his hand into the viper’s nest. They will neither harm nor destroy on all my holy mountain, for the earth will be full of the knowledge of the Lord as the waters cover the sea.” When was any of that fulfilled? I’m sorry to be blunt, but Christians are delusional when they say that Jesus ushered in a new age. He didn’t drive out the Romans, he was executed by them. He didn’t rule Israel in an era of peace, it was brutally destroyed even before most of the gospels were written. The average Christian, [who can’t even name the four gospels](http://www.pewforum.org/2010/09/28/u-s-religious-knowledge-survey/), has never read Jewish prophecy, and yet he’s so sure he knows Jesus fulfilled it. Jews, who know a little more about it, can plainly see that he didn’t. If you want to say he’s ruling in heaven, knock yourself out, but there is no evidence of it on earth, and no visible effects of it. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2017, 5:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doesnt-most-wondrous-biblical-wisdom-seem-like-common-sense/796633/105 "2017-09-20T05:48:10Z")
> [@madsircool](#): > > Hard work > Discipline > The value of family > Help your neighbors > > I’d say it is. None of which are liberal values? :rolleyes: In any case, my point was that if two diametrically opposed views of the world both get support from the same book, it is not much of a guide. As for the liberal values, some of which conservatives would probably claim also, Christianity ruled for a long time before the Enlightenment without coming up with these. I’m now reading a history of Venice, and it appears that most slaves 600 years ago or so were white, those captured in wars. And please don’t go No True Christian on me. I’d figure those closer to Jesus and the saints like Augustine would have as least a good a view of what Jesus wanted than we do. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2017, 5:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doesnt-most-wondrous-biblical-wisdom-seem-like-common-sense/796633/106 "2017-09-20T05:57:09Z")
> [@TonySinclair](#): > > I agree that Jesus could have done more good by endorsing hand washing than all the alleged good he’s done with his maunderings that even most Christians ignore, but he was not refuting a Jewish law. Handwashing is not a Mosaic law, it was merely a tradition. > > People sometimes claim the Jewish dietary laws show supernatural wisdom because you can get worms from pork, but imagine how many lives would have been saved if instead of nitpicking laws about diet, or priest’s underwear, the Torah had included an admonition to wash your hands when preparing food or treating the sick, injured, or pregnant. I’m reasonably sure that there are blessings before eating which require the washing of hands - where they come from, I don’t know. And I’m definitely not saying that Jewish law got it right. Just that one of the rare cases where it did, Jesus was against it. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2017, 6:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doesnt-most-wondrous-biblical-wisdom-seem-like-common-sense/796633/107 "2017-09-20T06:04:02Z")
> [@TonySinclair](#): > > The average Christian, [who can’t even name the four gospels](http://www.pewforum.org/2010/09/28/u-s-religious-knowledge-survey/), has never read Jewish prophecy, and yet he’s so sure he knows Jesus fulfilled it. Jews, who know a little more about it, can plainly see that he didn’t. > > If you want to say he’s ruling in heaven, knock yourself out, but there is no evidence of it on earth, and no visible effects of it. And let’s not forget that the Jews living in Jerusalem at the time of Jesus were curiously unmoved by the “miraculous” events that supposedly took place. Christians did a lot better further from the scene in time and space where they could preach about things that never happened. Many of the things Jesus supposedly did to fulfill the prophecies (like being born in Bethlehem) were retconned, and others fulfilled prophecies that didn’t even exist, like the virgin birth. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2017, 6:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doesnt-most-wondrous-biblical-wisdom-seem-like-common-sense/796633/108 "2017-09-20T06:06:27Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > Which supports my quantum theory analogy. Schrodinger’s Salvation - a person is both saved and not saved, and you can’t tell until God or someone collapses the sin probability wave. ---
**Author:** ![TonySinclair](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/49beb7/32.png) [@TonySinclair](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TonySinclair)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2017, 6:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doesnt-most-wondrous-biblical-wisdom-seem-like-common-sense/796633/109 "2017-09-20T06:16:24Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Yes. There were two types of slaves in Israel: > > Debt slaves, who had be be freed after 3-6 year. > > You get in debt, you work it off. Hardly evil. Many laws and customs protected them. > > Prisoners of war, who were slaves until they converted to Judaism. First, I would like a cite from the Bible that a foreign slave can be freed without his owner’s consent, simply by converting. Second, you are mistaken about the source of foreign slaves. The verse I quoted in a previous post, from Lev 25, specifically says that you can just buy them from a foreign slave trader; it says nothing about war. On the contrary, God was typically displeased when the Israelites took prisoners of war, as in Numbers 31 — even though all the enemy men had been killed, Moses threw a fit when he found out the women had been spared. According to the Torah, there are to be no male prisoners of war in the way we use the term, ever. See Deut 20: 10-16. I’ll paraphrase: If the Israelites threaten a distant city, and it throws open its gates and surrenders without a fight, then its citizens become slaves. But if they fight, then all the men are killed, and the women are plunder. No male POWs. That’s for distant cities, and I don’t know if that rule was ever used. For cities in Canaan, i.e. the Promised Land, the rule is simpler: kill everything that breathes — men, women, children, and babies. No POWs. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2017, 7:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doesnt-most-wondrous-biblical-wisdom-seem-like-common-sense/796633/110 "2017-09-20T07:17:20Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > And while one could argue that Christian morality (e.g., the Golden Rule) fed into Humanistic morality, … Worth mentioning that a version of “The Golden Rule” appears throughout recorded history in many, many civilisations, cultures and religions. It is not specifically “Christian” although it may be referred to in the bible. ---
**Author:** ![Pleonast](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pleonast/32/1183_2.png) [@Pleonast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pleonast)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2017, 1:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doesnt-most-wondrous-biblical-wisdom-seem-like-common-sense/796633/111 "2017-09-20T13:23:15Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > I’m not sure I would put the NET on the top of my list for accuracy in translation, and certainly not higher than the KJS. Of the 22 men and one woman listed as translators and editors, all but one were teachers or students from Dallas Theological Seminary. This may leave one to believe that they were picked because of something other than their scholarship credentials, seeing as how the NET pretty much matches up with the teachings of DTS. I don’t know any other version that publicly notates the verses with their translation comments. > [@Hector\_St\_Clare](#): > > The KJV isn’t ‘shakily’ translated, it’s generally acknowledged to be an excellent translation _of the manuscripts it used_ (Masoretic text for the Hebrew Bible, Received Text for the New Testament). > > Most modern translations use a different set of manuscripts than the KJV (they use the ‘critical’ text which is based on older manuscripts than the received text), and you can certainly make a case for that, but you can make a case for the received text too: it’s worth considering that the second largest Christian confession out there, the Orthodox Church, uses more or less the same new testament manuscript tradition as the KJV, because they disagree with historico-critical premises. (They use different sources for the old testament, relying on the Greek rather than the Hebrew version). Thank you for the correction. I was muddling the choice of manuscript with the accuracy of the translation. > [@Czarcasm](#): > > Between what you have stated and your preference in Bibles, would you say you are a believer in Dispensationalism, **Pleonast**? I’ve never heard the term before and with a quick skim of Wikipedia I don’t see anything similar to my beliefs. > [@Voyager](#): > > Let’s not worry about killing children, let’s worry about handwashing. I wonder how many people died over the years thanks to Jesus pooh-poohing hand washing. Maybe his dad could have told him about germs or something. Whether Jewish law was accidentally useful or done because of some observation of the relation of dirt and disease, it is not one of the more stupid laws of the real Bible. Who knew 2000-year-old health codes might not be up to date on science? :eek: > [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > b) Deuteronomy’s exact law is a bit more fine-grained than “rebellious”. It’s relatively clear from the OT that they’re really looking for drunk menaces to society, rather than people who aren’t 100% in lock-step with their parents. BUT, the expectation is still that the parents arrange an execution for their child and there’s no indication that Jesus doesn’t think that is anything but fine and dandy. The Pharisees are the ones who are trying to find excuses to avoid enacting the law. Your interpretation is baffling. Let me paraphrase the story without religious overtones. 1. Phil, known for their strict adherence to rules, accuses Jack of not following the Dingo rule. 2. Jack points out that Phil does not follow the Koala rule. 3. Jack accuses Phil of hypocrisy for not following some rules while advocating strict adherence to the rules. You think that the point of the story is that Jack wants Phil to the follow Koala rule. But that interpretation doesn’t explain why Jack doesn’t follow the Dingo rule, and leave Jack also open to accusations of hypocrisy. A better interpretation is Jack is pointing out to Phil that following the literal rules is not the goal. Phil is still a hypocrite, but Jack is not because Jack is not advocating blind adherence to the rules. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2017, 2:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doesnt-most-wondrous-biblical-wisdom-seem-like-common-sense/796633/112 "2017-09-20T14:15:23Z")
> [@Pleonast](#): > > I don’t know any other version that publicly notates the verses with their translation comments. That’s nice…but it has absolutely nothing to do with the concerns I raise. It’s as if I told you I didn’t want to buy your car because it wont pass the DEQ test, and you respond that you like the fact that the seats are two-toned. ---
**Author:** ![Pleonast](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pleonast/32/1183_2.png) [@Pleonast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pleonast)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2017, 2:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doesnt-most-wondrous-biblical-wisdom-seem-like-common-sense/796633/113 "2017-09-20T14:26:48Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > That’s nice…but it has absolutely nothing to do with the concerns I raise. It’s as if I told you I didn’t want to buy your car because it wont pass the DEQ test, and you respond that you like the fact that the seats are two-toned. It’s absolutely relevant. It’s as if you told me you didn’t want to buy my car because it wont pass the DEQ test, and I respond that I like the fact that I have all the test results and don’t know of any other cars with published test results. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2017, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doesnt-most-wondrous-biblical-wisdom-seem-like-common-sense/796633/114 "2017-09-20T14:36:35Z")
You did not address the fact that almost all of their “acclaimed” translators and scholars came from the same religious seminary, and that their “translation” supported the previously established teachings of that seminary. That fact that you liked the way the info is put together has absolutely _nothing_ to do with the accuracy of the information itself. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2017, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doesnt-most-wondrous-biblical-wisdom-seem-like-common-sense/796633/115 "2017-09-20T14:46:55Z")
Back when I was a senior warden for the local Episcopal Church I spent a lot of time looking through various Bibles with our parish priest, and one of the sources I used was [this Bible research site.](http://www.bible-researcher.com/index.html) When I got to the NET Bible, [this page(along with others from different sites)](http://www.bible-researcher.com/net.html) convinced me and the priest that we wouldn’t be using that particular translation. ---
**Author:** ![Pleonast](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pleonast/32/1183_2.png) [@Pleonast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pleonast)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2017, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doesnt-most-wondrous-biblical-wisdom-seem-like-common-sense/796633/116 "2017-09-20T14:57:52Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > You did not address the fact that almost all of their “acclaimed” translators and scholars came from the same religious seminary, and that their “translation” supported the previously established teachings of that seminary. That fact that you liked the way the info is put together has absolutely _nothing_ to do with the accuracy of the information itself. They have published their notes on their translation choices. That gives everyone the means to check their translation. So instead of checking translation accuracy by reading a vague preface about translation approach or trying to second-guess the individuals’ motives, we actually read why they made the choices they did. As far as I know, no other version has done that. It seems odd that you complain about Bible translations, but when a particular version is suggested, you don’t want to use it because it’s not a good translation. Pick a specific verse (from any version, I don’t care) and tell us why you think that instance is a good or bad translation. You think the NET version is not accurate, so it should be easy for you to find an example of poor translation–and their own notes will give us a starting point to evaluate the quality of the translation. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2017, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doesnt-most-wondrous-biblical-wisdom-seem-like-common-sense/796633/117 "2017-09-20T15:08:59Z")
Did you take a look at my cites? ---
**Author:** ![Pleonast](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pleonast/32/1183_2.png) [@Pleonast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pleonast)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2017, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doesnt-most-wondrous-biblical-wisdom-seem-like-common-sense/796633/118 "2017-09-20T15:13:43Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Did you take a look at my cites? I skimmed it. It calls out specific verses. Do you care to pick one? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2017, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doesnt-most-wondrous-biblical-wisdom-seem-like-common-sense/796633/119 "2017-09-20T16:06:02Z")
If the fact that these translations came from people picked for what they already believed and not for their academic credentials(except for the fact that they all came from the same school-what a coincidence!) and/or previous accredited works, and the fact that what they came up with matched up with what their school already believed in, then I don’t know what it would take to convince you that your preference of the NET over the KJV makes no sense. The link I provided does much more than just “call out specific verses”-It also calls to account the scholarship and purpose of this translation. The translations I have trouble with are the ones listed in that article(which is why I posted the link in the first place) and, since the author of that piece is more eloquent and learned then I am, I will stand aside and let you pick out one the examples he gave and tell us what is wrong with his analysis of any particular example. ---
**Author:** ![ISiddiqui](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/97f17d/32.png) [@ISiddiqui](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ISiddiqui)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2017, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doesnt-most-wondrous-biblical-wisdom-seem-like-common-sense/796633/120 "2017-09-20T17:38:18Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > a) The Prodigal son is not disobedient, just incompetent. > b) Deuteronomy’s exact law is a bit more fine-grained than “rebellious”. It’s relatively clear from the OT that they’re really looking for drunk menaces to society, rather than people who aren’t 100% in lock-step with their parents. BUT, the expectation is still that the parents arrange an execution for their child and there’s no indication that Jesus doesn’t think that is anything but fine and dandy. The Pharisees are the ones who are trying to find excuses to avoid enacting the law. A) Prodigal Son asks for his share of the inheritance. In effect, during that era, is wishing his father dead. Fairly disobedient. Also ends up sleeping with pigs, which to a Jew in that time is a decent sized no-no. B) Jesus, IMO, is pointing out the silliness of the Pharisee’s literalism (as he’s embarking on a ministry of the spirit of the law is more important than it’s letter). Similar to how some today would tell a Christian fundamentalist today that if you want to discriminate against gays because of provisions in Leviticus, then you better stone them to death. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doesnt-most-wondrous-biblical-wisdom-seem-like-common-sense/796633.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doesnt-most-wondrous-biblical-wisdom-seem-like-common-sense/796633.md?page=7)