# Doesn't the idea of an omnipotent and omniscient God kinda contradict itself? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 3, 2003, 12:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doesnt-the-idea-of-an-omnipotent-and-omniscient-god-kinda-contradict-itself/172760 "2003-05-03T00:41:18Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![FudgeNugget](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/7cd45c/32.png) [@FudgeNugget](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FudgeNugget)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2003, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doesnt-the-idea-of-an-omnipotent-and-omniscient-god-kinda-contradict-itself/172760/21 "2003-05-03T18:58:23Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by X~Slayer(ALE) \* > \*\*If you can figure out how to fit the entire ocean into a regular sized bucket, maybe you would be able to comprehend God. If you do, you wont need our help. \*\* If you’re suggesting that any questions toward God are irrelevant because we can’t comprehend Him, then that doesn’t make Christianity Christianity, it makes it Agnosticism. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2003, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doesnt-the-idea-of-an-omnipotent-and-omniscient-god-kinda-contradict-itself/172760/22 "2003-05-03T19:20:21Z")
> [@](#): > > If you can figure out how to fit the entire ocean into a regular sized bucket, maybe you would be able to comprehend God. If you do, you wont need our help. This is also just a bit arrogant, no? “If you disagree with my position, it’s only because you don’t comprehend it.” ---
**Author:** ![Already\_in\_Use](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a9adbd/32.png) [@Already\_in\_Use](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Already_in_Use)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2003, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doesnt-the-idea-of-an-omnipotent-and-omniscient-god-kinda-contradict-itself/172760/23 "2003-05-03T21:48:15Z")
For those of you interested in the stone paradox, [here](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=175059)’s our last thread dealing it. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2003, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doesnt-the-idea-of-an-omnipotent-and-omniscient-god-kinda-contradict-itself/172760/24 "2003-05-03T22:15:30Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Marley23 \* > \*\*…But I think the rock thing does take care of omnipotence pretty nicely. 😉 \*\* No; the ‘rock thing’ is a malformed logical entity; an immovable object and an irresistable force cannot (by their own definitions) exist in the same universe; Omnipotence need not be defined as ‘being able to do any thing, even if it is not a thing’. Can I smell the colour nine? - no! - not because my sense of smell is impaired, but because ‘smelling the colour nine’ is illogical nonsense. ---
**Author:** ![x-ray\_vision](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/x-ray_vision/32/351_2.png) [@x-ray\_vision](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/x-ray_vision)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2003, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doesnt-the-idea-of-an-omnipotent-and-omniscient-god-kinda-contradict-itself/172760/25 "2003-05-03T23:26:27Z")
I like the analogy **Mangetout**. Asking a non-sensicle question doesn’t mean there can’t be such a thing as an omnipotent being. But if we’re talking about the God of the Bible I have this question: from Genesis 6:6: _And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart._ If He knows everthing he’s going to do in the future, why did He make man if He knew one day He would regret it? ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2003, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doesnt-the-idea-of-an-omnipotent-and-omniscient-god-kinda-contradict-itself/172760/26 "2003-05-03T23:29:17Z")
Well now, that is a good question; I’ll leave it to the literalists to answer… ---
**Author:** ![x-ray\_vision](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/x-ray_vision/32/351_2.png) [@x-ray\_vision](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/x-ray_vision)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2003, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doesnt-the-idea-of-an-omnipotent-and-omniscient-god-kinda-contradict-itself/172760/27 "2003-05-03T23:31:35Z")
I probably hit send too early. What I’m saying is, if one repents thier own actions, that means there actions must not have been perfect. No? ---
**Author:** ![FudgeNugget](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/7cd45c/32.png) [@FudgeNugget](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FudgeNugget)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2003, 3:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doesnt-the-idea-of-an-omnipotent-and-omniscient-god-kinda-contradict-itself/172760/28 "2003-05-04T03:03:41Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Mangetout \* > \*\*No; the ‘rock thing’ is a malformed logical entity; an immovable object and an irresistable force cannot (by their own definitions) exist in the same universe; > > Omnipotence need not be defined as ‘being able to do any thing, even if it is not a thing’. > > Can I smell the colour nine? - no! - not because my sense of smell is impaired, but because ‘smelling the colour nine’ is illogical nonsense. \*\* How is being able to create a universe logical? How is being able to exist “outside” of time logical? How are and have been any of the great acts of God, logical? Because He willed them so? How’s _that_ logical? Christians say that God is beyond our comprehension; His logic is different from our logic; so who’s to say God can’t make an immovable object and an irresistable force (assuming He does exist and is omnipotent) exist in the same universe, under His logic? If you’re saying that the term “logic” only encompasses everything mankind can do, and everything God **has done** , then who’s to say He can’t do more? Polycarp stated that God chooses not to act in all possible ways, so He doesn’t, but that means He CAN do other things, even if it is not a thing **to us**. ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2003, 12:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doesnt-the-idea-of-an-omnipotent-and-omniscient-god-kinda-contradict-itself/172760/29 "2003-05-04T12:09:55Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by FudgeNugget \* > **Time happens when an object in motion is in contrast with an object thats stationary. How does something exist “outside” of time? I don’t understand that concept.** Not to be flippant, but of course you (and all of us) don’t. It’s impossible for any of us to fully understand something that exists outside of the confines of our own physical universe, something that need not be subject to the physical laws our universe creates, something unbound by the laws that create the most immediately “real” context for our understanding. But, of course, an omniscient and omnipotent being would, by definition, have to exist outside these confines, the very confines He created. Otherwise He’d be limited by our physical laws, the constraints of time, etc.–which is your point. God is a non-physical being, unconstrained by the time and space and physics He created. He does not require that context to exist. Any limitations on his actions are self-imposed. ---
**Author:** ![MonkeyMensch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/82dd89/32.png) [@MonkeyMensch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MonkeyMensch)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2003, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doesnt-the-idea-of-an-omnipotent-and-omniscient-god-kinda-contradict-itself/172760/30 "2003-05-04T15:34:02Z")
Well, speaking _Ex Cathedra_ here, anytime my religion can’t explain something logically we hang a big **Holy Mystery** sign on it and make it part of the dogma. YMMV ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2003, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doesnt-the-idea-of-an-omnipotent-and-omniscient-god-kinda-contradict-itself/172760/31 "2003-05-04T16:11:43Z")
What’s **il** logical about what God does? And remember that we need to speak of Him in terms that make sense to us as humans, but which are necessarily metaphors for Him. God no more “repented” of creating man than the Sun rose in the east this morning – both are metaphors describing from human perspective what actually happened in a quite different way. My point on _eternity_ above and the distinction from _perpetuity_ was that God necessarily sees what we observe as a sequence of temporal events as one – because that’s implicit in eternity – the whole of time is taken as a single unit, much as we can see all of a rolling lawn that to an ant only the tiny part which he can observe at one moment is knowable. ---
**Author:** ![FudgeNugget](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/7cd45c/32.png) [@FudgeNugget](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FudgeNugget)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2003, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doesnt-the-idea-of-an-omnipotent-and-omniscient-god-kinda-contradict-itself/172760/32 "2003-05-04T17:51:42Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Bob Cos \* > \*\*Not to be flippant, but of course you (and all of us) don’t. It’s impossible for any of us to fully understand something that exists outside of the confines of our own physical universe, something that need not be subject to the physical laws our universe creates, something unbound by the laws that create the most immediately “real” context for our understanding. But, of course, an omniscient and omnipotent being would, by definition, have to exist outside these confines, the very confines He created. Otherwise He’d be limited by our physical laws, the constraints of time, etc.–which is your point. > > God is a non-physical being, unconstrained by the time and space and physics He created. He does not require that context to exist. Any limitations on his actions are self-imposed. \*\* So you’re saying that even though God seems self-contradicting to human logic, thats irrelevant because God exists outside our logic? ---
**Author:** ![FudgeNugget](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/7cd45c/32.png) [@FudgeNugget](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FudgeNugget)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2003, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doesnt-the-idea-of-an-omnipotent-and-omniscient-god-kinda-contradict-itself/172760/33 "2003-05-04T17:54:12Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Polycarp \* > \*\*What’s **il** logical about what God does? And remember that we need to speak of Him in terms that make sense to us as humans, but which are necessarily metaphors for Him. God no more “repented” of creating man than the Sun rose in the east this morning – both are metaphors describing from human perspective what actually happened in a quite different way. > > My point on _eternity_ above and the distinction from _perpetuity_ was that God necessarily sees what we observe as a sequence of temporal events as one – because that’s implicit in eternity – the whole of time is taken as a single unit, much as we can see all of a rolling lawn that to an ant only the tiny part which he can observe at one moment is knowable. \*\* Again, this seems like you’re saying that God exists beyond our logic, so I can’t comprehend Him anyway regardles of how many contradictions I find. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2003, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doesnt-the-idea-of-an-omnipotent-and-omniscient-god-kinda-contradict-itself/172760/34 "2003-05-04T18:07:02Z")
Well, yes and no. I’m saying several things: 1. Implitly, that “contradictions in the Bible” are not necessarily evidence for or against God – they’re errors in a book comprised of writings by a bunch of humans over the years and alleged to be inspired by Him. (I know that wasn’t part of your argument, but it deserves to be touched on in passing, just for clarity’s sake.) 2. That one cannot comprehend the totality of an entity of which the sorts of ultimate-type statements we’ve been examining in this thread can be made – one cannot “grok God” in the Heinleinian term. 3. That one can “know” Him in the _connoitre_ meaning – as a Person – without “knowing” Him completely in the _savoir_ sense. 4. That inherently contradictory assertions “logically reasoned” from propositions about Him are not accurate, in the same way as those subtle proofs that one equals zero or minus one are inaccurate, since they depend on dividing by a variable which, analyzed, turns out to be equal to zero. 5. That determinism, fate, and such are not inherently contradictory of free will, but the results of our cause-and-effect time-limited system of cogitation, which is not applicable to an entity which “sees the entire program” as a whole, rather than trying to debug it one step at a time, to use a programming metaphor. ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2003, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doesnt-the-idea-of-an-omnipotent-and-omniscient-god-kinda-contradict-itself/172760/35 "2003-05-04T18:12:17Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by FudgeNugget \* > \*\*So you’re saying that even though God seems self-contradicting to human logic, thats irrelevant because God exists outside our logic? \*\* Yes. Logic as we define it has meaning within our physical world. God is not constained by it. He is beyond our complete understanding because we are imperfect, limited beings, and He is not. ---
**Author:** ![FudgeNugget](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/7cd45c/32.png) [@FudgeNugget](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FudgeNugget)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2003, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doesnt-the-idea-of-an-omnipotent-and-omniscient-god-kinda-contradict-itself/172760/36 "2003-05-04T18:17:31Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Polycarp \* > \*\*Well, yes and no. > > I’m saying several things: > > 1. Implitly, that “contradictions in the Bible” are not necessarily evidence for or against God – they’re errors in a book comprised of writings by a bunch of humans over the years and alleged to be inspired by Him. (I know that wasn’t part of your argument, but it deserves to be touched on in passing, just for clarity’s sake.) > > 2. That one cannot comprehend the totality of an entity of which the sorts of ultimate-type statements we’ve been examining in this thread can be made – one cannot “grok God” in the Heinleinian term. > > 3. That one can “know” Him in the _connoitre_ meaning – as a Person – without “knowing” Him completely in the _savoir_ sense. > > 4. That inherently contradictory assertions “logically reasoned” from propositions about Him are not accurate, in the same way as those subtle proofs that one equals zero or minus one are inaccurate, since they depend on dividing by a variable which, analyzed, turns out to be equal to zero. > > 5. That determinism, fate, and such are not inherently contradictory of free will, but the results of our cause-and-effect time-limited system of cogitation, which is not applicable to an entity which “sees the entire program” as a whole, rather than trying to debug it one step at a time, to use a programming metaphor. \*\* > [@](#): > > _Originally posted by Bob Cos_ \*\*Yes. Logic as we define it has meaning within our physical world. God is not constained by it. He is beyond our complete understanding because we are imperfect, limited beings, and He is not. \*\* Sounds like agnosticism to me. ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2003, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doesnt-the-idea-of-an-omnipotent-and-omniscient-god-kinda-contradict-itself/172760/37 "2003-05-04T18:51:13Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by FudgeNugget \* > \*\*Sounds like agnosticism to me. \*\* I suppose it is, if you are referring to a very specific form of knowledge regarding God. I do not, however, posit that it is impossible to know God, only that it is not possible to fully understand His nature. From this [site](http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/01215c.htm): > [@](#): > > \*\*Agnosticism, with special reference to theology, is a name for any theory which denies that it is possible for man to acquire knowledge of God. It may assume either a religious or an anti-religious form, according as it is confined to a criticism of rational knowledge or extended to a criticism of belief. \ Bonetty (1798-1879), in his advocacy of faith in God, the Scriptures, and the Church, afford instances of Catholic theologians attempting to combine belief in moral and religious truths with the denial that valid knowledge of the same is attainable by reason apart from revelation and tradition. To these systems of Fideism and Traditionalism should be added the theory of Mansel (1820-71), which Spencer regarded as a confession of Agnosticism, that the very inability of reason to know the being and attributes of God proves that revelation is necessary to supplement the mind’s shortcomings. This attitude of criticising knowledge, but not faith, was also a feature of Sir William Hamilton’s philosophy. \*\* ---
**Author:** ![FudgeNugget](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/7cd45c/32.png) [@FudgeNugget](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FudgeNugget)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2003, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doesnt-the-idea-of-an-omnipotent-and-omniscient-god-kinda-contradict-itself/172760/38 "2003-05-04T19:04:45Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Bob Cos \* > \*\*I suppose it is, if you are referring to a very specific form of knowledge regarding God. I do not, however, posit that it is impossible to know God, only that it is not possible to fully understand His nature. > > From this [site](http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/01215c.htm):\*\* \*\* In Christianity, to be told my questions are irrelevent because I can’t comprehend God, and to simply accept all the teachings He wrote/inspired some people to write in a book (supposedly infallible, according to that same God) without question, is a big leap of faith and disregard of all my reason and common sense (no offense to any Christians, that’s just me and my own opinion). ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2003, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doesnt-the-idea-of-an-omnipotent-and-omniscient-god-kinda-contradict-itself/172760/39 "2003-05-04T20:13:30Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by FudgeNugget \* > \*\*In Christianity, to be told my questions are irrelevent because I can’t comprehend God, and to simply accept all the teachings He wrote/inspired some people to write in a book (supposedly infallible, according to that same God) without question, is a big leap of faith and disregard of all my reason and common sense (no offense to any Christians, that’s just me and my own opinion). \*\* Point taken. But that’s not what I’m saying, nor is it the stance of any other Christian in this thread so far as I can tell. _I_ can’t know all that there is to know about God – but I can certainly know some things about Him. And I’d be glad to share what I know about him (or believe that I do), to the extent that you want to listen. Nor do a great proportion of Christians believe the Bible to be infallible – we respect it but feel that scholarship about it is the way to get at the truth conveyed through it. Questions are not only acceptable but a demand of the thoughtful believer. Nor are you expected to disregard reason, just adopt the stance of humility that there are some things that you just ain’t gonna get the answer to right here and right now, and that God is somebody that you can trust to have those right answers and give them in His own good time. (That last is what _I_ mean by faith – I trust Him, as I would a person of whose goodwill and ability to accomplish what he proposes to do I am utterly sure.) Slight difference from where you’re coming from, I believe. Not that there are not folks who take the stance you object to, of course – though they too will do their level best to resolve your questions insofar as they are able. ---
**Author:** ![FudgeNugget](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/7cd45c/32.png) [@FudgeNugget](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FudgeNugget)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2003, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doesnt-the-idea-of-an-omnipotent-and-omniscient-god-kinda-contradict-itself/172760/40 "2003-05-04T20:43:09Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Polycarp \* > \*\*Point taken. But that’s not what I’m saying, nor is it the stance of any other Christian in this thread so far as I can tell. > > _I_ can’t know all that there is to know about God – but I can certainly know some things about Him. And I’d be glad to share what I know about him (or believe that I do), to the extent that you want to listen. Nor do a great proportion of Christians believe the Bible to be infallible – we respect it but feel that scholarship about it is the way to get at the truth conveyed through it. Questions are not only acceptable but a demand of the thoughtful believer. Nor are you expected to disregard reason, just adopt the stance of humility that there are some things that you just ain’t gonna get the answer to right here and right now, and that God is somebody that you can trust to have those right answers and give them in His own good time. (That last is what _I_ mean by faith – I trust Him, as I would a person of whose goodwill and ability to accomplish what he proposes to do I am utterly sure.) > > Slight difference from where you’re coming from, I believe. > > Not that there are not folks who take the stance you object to, of course – though they too will do their level best to resolve your questions insofar as they are able. \*\* What is known about God? God is all-loving. But why is there so much death and other bad stuff going on? Satan caused it? Man caused it? Both were created by God, and God knew all this evil was going to happen. He doesn’t do anything about it; I say that doesn’t mean He’s all loving; Christians say its part of His divine plan; when I ask about His divine plan, its beyond human knowledge. How do I trust a being like that? Many questions are geared toward believers who want to believe more and keep their faith and be able to defend it; I’m somewhere between agnostic and atheist, and faith seems to be the only thing separating me from a Christian; how do I have faith in something while there’s so much telling me not to? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doesnt-the-idea-of-an-omnipotent-and-omniscient-god-kinda-contradict-itself/172760.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doesnt-the-idea-of-an-omnipotent-and-omniscient-god-kinda-contradict-itself/172760.md?page=3)