Dog Attack

I think there have been a lot of good points on this thread.

  • living in the wilderness carries risk
  • you shouldn’t boobytrap your house
  • parents should make it clear to children that climbing into gardens with pools (or entering building sites etc.) is dangerous.

In England, I think the law is that a dog is assumed safe until it bites someone (frequently a postman, since we have deliveries to the door). Then the dog is usually put to sleep.
We had a panicky law brought in quickly recently (bantmof is right - emotional reactions are not appropriate to consider when it comes to dispensing justice) on muzzling dogs. I think some breed (can’t remember the name - large with powerful bite)
attacked a child in public, and now any dog of a certain breed has to be muzzled in public.
Two points:
once a dog has killed someone, isn’t it a more dangerous animal?
(on personal responsibility) didn’t someone sue McDonalds when they put a cup of coffee on their dashboard and drove off?
(If so, surely that’s their own fault)

I don’t have all the facts of the story-- like if it was a low fence, for example.
In my city, a canine has to bite twice before they take it away.

It’s a great idea to hunt down an animal that bit someone because it needs to be tested for rabies. That is usually one of the primary reasons they bite.

i’m familiar with the case of the booby trapped house, and the reason that he lost the suit is because …according to the law, you cannot use deadly force to protect property. however, if you’re home, then you could use the self defense thingy.

as for the dogs…this may be far fetched, but when i was growing up, once a dog killed a chicken, he would get that taste of blood and be a chicken killer forever. so they were usually put down (doesn’t make it right), but is it possible that they (dogs) thought it was ok to attack children anywhere after that?

No. No, no, no, no, no, no. This is not anything close to what happened in the infamous “Everybody-knows-what-happened-except-nobody-really-does” McDonald’s case. Not even in the same neighborhood. This is how urban legends get started. Don’t even get me going on how much people don’t know about this case.

Anyway, there is an organization called Best Friends that runs a ranch out in Utah. They take in homeless and abused pets and other animals, and they have also been known to take in animals which have been ordered destroyed by the courts. In many cases, these animals are not any more dangerous than any others; they were simply provoked and fought back, or felt threatened and fought back.

I think courts across the country should know about this organization.

“I love God! He’s so deliciously evil!” - Stewie Griffin, Family Guy

pldennison,
please help me!
I know nothing for sure about the ‘McDonalds coffee suing’, except that people here in England keep telling me roughly what I described above. Usually the topic comes up when discussing legal practices in the USA, or when eating a BigMac.
I will happily tell you what I know about the MacLibel case in London in return, if you want.


I just had deja vu, and I’m sure it’s happened before…

I will completely ignore the responsibility issue, as that has been covered so well, and inject that there is a long “tradition” of “executing” man-killing animals whether they’re behind the bars of a circus or zoo or not. The cases where the animals are left alive (due to their great monetary value) seem (to me) to be rare exceptions. Even grizzlies in Yellowstone are hunted (by the NPS) with an eye to killing them after man-killing cases. They don’t always find the responsible bear though.

I can concede that a ten year old should know better than to trespass, and perhaps death by dismemberment is a just penalty for a ten year old who does trespass. What if the kid is two or three years old? In my town not long ago, a nearly identical situation occurred in which a toddler scaled the neighbor’s fence (I don’t think it was a really secure fence if a two year old was able to climb it) and was mauled by two dogs. She didn’t die, but she lost her scalp, both ears, and most of her face. (The dogs were rottweilers, but this story could as easily have involved any big dog. In my experience, rottweilers are not inherently vicious but they are big and capable of doing some damage.)

Now. Does a two year old deserve to be torn to pieces as punishment for tresspassing? Or is it the parents who should be punished here, for leaving the child inadequately supervised for a minute or two? Maybe Mom was on the pot. That’s about how long it takes for a two year old to get into major trouble. Perhaps the parents (not the dogs or the dogs’ owners) should be prosecuted for manslaughter if a neighbor’s dog eats their kid.

My 2 year old son was attacked by my neighbor’s pit bull, in my neighbor’s living room, after we had been invited over. Three quick chomps to the face and my son wound up with permanent scars and twenty stitches. Neither the dog nor his owner were punished for this, though my neighbor did graciously offer to pay the medical bills ($4,000 for a plastic surgeon). If we hadn’t been standing RIGHT THERE, there is no doubt in my mind my son would be dead now. My neighbor had to physically tackle the dog. What did my son do to instigate this? Like I said, we were standing right there and that boy did nothing to provoke the dog: no ear-or-tail-pulling, no teasing, no taking doggy’s toy.

I suppose that incident was entirely my and my husband’s fault. After all, we knew there was a dog in the room. We should have known that a dog with no prior history of biting could easily attack a child who was not hurting or threatening him in any way. It was just the dog’s instincts to randomly attack a child. Why should the dog be punished for that?

Epilogue: that dog died of old age a couple of months ago, eight years after the attack.

glee, the specific McDonald’s involved in the case had been maintaining excessively hot water to brew the coffee and had been warned that the temperature was too hot on several occasions. The elderly woman who spilled the coffee suffered second degree burns (blistered skin) on her thighs that required hospitalization.

I have had coffee spilled on me directly from the brewing machine and have never gotten a first degree burn (reddened skin).

This was not a case of ambulance chasing. The generally accepted story is a case of McD’s using a general displeasure with tort law among the populace to cover their irresponsible butts.


Tom~

tomndebb,
thanks.
Just shows that a world-wide corporation and it’s PR department is no match for the SDMBers!
If you can stand some more detail (because it’s clearly my duty to inform 55 million people in Britain of the facts) - was a car involved?


I just had deja vu, and I’m sure it’s happened before…

glee – you can get full details at

http://home.pon.net/wildrose/column4.htm

torq,
thank you!

The decision by McDonalds to allow such a risk reminds me of a film. I remember Gene Hackman and Mary Elizabeth Mastrianno as father/daughter lawyers. A car company produced a defective model which had a remote chance of catching fire (hit from behind when signalling for a turn). They decided not to halt production, but just pay damages if found out.
This being the SDMB, I expect to learn the title of the film (and corrections to the above) in about 30 minutes!


I just had deja vu, and I’m sure it’s happened before…

Holly raises the question,

Well my opinion surely isn’t the “warm fuzzy” one, but here it is anyway :slight_smile:

I think that if this happens, (a) the kid is not at fault - surely a 2 year old can’t be expected to understand the risks he’s taking here; he just hasn’t lived long enough yet to know. And (b) the dog/dog-owner is not at fault either - they still haven’t done anything wrong, regardless of whether the person who got attacked was 1 or 40. And probably (c) there is a small but non-zero amount of risk associated with leaving a 2 year old alone for even a few minutes. Most of the time people get away with it; once in a while, they don’t.

So I still don’t think the dog should be destroyed. It would be a senseless tragedy, but tragedies happen sometimes, and there isn’t always somebody “at fault” that you can blame it on (however shocking of a concept that may be in our culture).

peas on earth

http://www.snopes.com/horrors/animals/snowball.htm

A true urban legend! Not about a dog, but relevant anyway.

I think the Gene Hackman / Mary Elizabeth M. movie was called Class Action. Never saw it.

The woman in question in the McDonald’s case had to have skin grafts to her pubic region, incidentally… certainly this was a serious burn, and not something that anyone would have considered “reasonable”

Phil, I agree… I get really irritated at the way people constantly bring up this case as an example of a “frivolous lawsuit”.


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Ok, I might as well put a sign on my back saying, “please! kick me!” :-), but here goes:

I don’t get why this isn’t a frivolous lawsuit. I probably don’t know all the facts of the case though - my impression is that the coffee was hotter than coffee commonly is, and that the lady was given the coffee in the drive through (?) and subsequently spilled it on her lap incurring serious burns.

Since most other people seem to understand why it’s not a frivolous lawsuit, I guess that either I have got the facts wrong, or that I’m looking at it very differently from everybody else (or maybe both).

The way I see it is: if somebody hands me a cup of anything, whether at room temperature or the melting point of lead, as soon as I’m in control of the cup, it becomes my responsibility to not spill it on myself. I.e, if they trip while handing it to me and splash it all over me, it’s their fault. But if I have control over it, and subsequently spill it on myself, that’s entirely, 100% my own bloody fault. Even if the material was, say, boiling water and I ended up seriously burned as a result.

I’m honestly not trying to just be obtuse here, but I really don’t understand how the coffee being hotter than usual avoids this being entirely her fault. It seems like common knowledge that coffee might be very hot, potentially near the boiling point of water even, and that one should be careful to not spill it on one’s self especially before one determines how hot it actually is.

Ok, go ahead, bludgeon some sense into me! To me, I don’t see any fundamental difference between this and a case where, say, person A hands person B a loaded gun, and person B blows their foot off with it. Even if A hasn’t said the the gun is loaded, B is still at fault if he shoots his foot off, since it was B’s actions that caused the accident, and B had sufficient cause to be careful, but failed to.


peas on earth

Bantmof, this particular McDonald’s had been reported several times for keeping their coffee MUCH hotter than recommended by the operations manual, causing several severe burns. They demonstrated that they were not at all inclined to lower the temperature.

I don’t know if the woman went through the drive-thru. She was a passenger, in a car driven by her nephew. (He may have gone in and gotten the food to go.) In any case, they were parked in the parking lot, and she was holding the coffee in both hands. When she went to remove the lid to add sugar, it stuck, then jerked open and spilled all over her lap.

She originally simply wanted McDonald’s to pay (all or part) of her medical bills, since she required skin grafts, including on her genitalia. They refused, and she sued them.

The trial jury attributed some small proportion of fault to the woman, something like 20%. The rest was attributed to McDonald’s. The enormous award usually bantered about was reduced on appeal, but the finding of fault was not questioned.


“I love God! He’s so deliciously evil!” - Stewie Griffin, Family Guy

Ok, thanks for the more accurate info, Pldennison - I had apparently gotten some of the story wrong. I still don’t “get it” though. Even as presented, I still see this as maybe 98% her fault, and maybe a token 2% for McD’s making the coffee too hot even after being warned. I mean, it’s not like a McD’s employee went out there and dumped the stuff on her. She was the sole individual in control of the cup. That it was very hot, I still think, is not at all relevant: SHE spilled it. Nobody else did.

Am I really so far disconnected from mainstream opinion on this? It would never even have occurred to me to sue over an accident I myself caused.

peas on earth

Interesting thread – I’m thrilled to death to find non-lawyers pointing out that the McDonalds case has more to it than fist appears; I’m sick of explaining that myself.

BANTMOF – The problem was that McDonalds (1) knew that the coffee it served was WAY too hot (like burn-your-lips-off, nobody- could-possibliy-drink-coffee-this-hot hot); (2) there was a reasonable, foreseeable possibility that people would spill the coffee on themselves (as it is reasonable to expect that people will occasionally spill drinks in a drive-thru); and (3) by implication, that IF someone spilled the coffee, they might be badly hurt BECAUSE it was way too hot. With that imputed knowledge, they did exactly nothing – didn’t stop serving it in the drive-thru, didn’t turn the coffee pot down.

By analogy (and this is TOTALLY MADE UP): Gillette makes a new razor that is super, super-sharp – like sharp enough to cut your throat if you aren’t being extremely careful. They know that the razor is way sharper than necessary, and they know that people will be using it to try to shave their faces, but they do nothing – no warning, no recall. You buy one, take it home, use it the next morning (half-asleep) and accidently cut your throat and nearly bleed to death. Is that your fault or theirs?

Back to the original post: Dogs can be considered attractive nuisances, meaning that some courts will consider them to be attractive to children too young to know better, who will attempt to reach them, pet them, play with them, whatever, with no thought about safety. In such a case (as in the case of a three-year-old, for example), the dog-owners have an obligation to keep the dog penned in such a way that a young child cannot reach it – behind a HIGH fence, in a LOCKED yard, etc. If the child reaches the animal anyway and is injured or killed, it is the DOG-OWNER’S obligation to prove that he or she took reasonable measures to keep the animal away from (and inaccessible to) small children.

If you’re dealing with a child “of the age of reason,” however, the situation is changed. If a child is presumptively old enough to know that dogs are dangerous and that he or she should not be climbing fences to get into other people’s yards (as a ten-year-old assumably would be), then the burden is on the CHILD (or his or her parents) to prove that the dog-owner didn’t reasonably restrain the dog. In any event, certain dogs (including, I believe, Rottweilers) can be considered a dangerous instument that an owner must take additional precautions to keep away from others – just like a gun.

I don’t think we know enough to know the circumstances under which the dogs were destroyed – whether the child’s family demanded it or the owner just did it. If I had a dog of any variety and it killed a child (or an adult, for that matter), I’d insist that it be destroyed that very day, and I’d do it myself if necessary.

glee, this is roughly what Ford did with the Pinto in the '70s. We studied this case in my Engineering Ethics class in college. What happened was the gas tank would explode when the car was rear-ended (at relatively low speeds).

It turned out that the rear axle sat directly behind the fuel tank, and the axle had bolts sticking out of it. When the car was rear-ended, the ends of the bolts would be rammed into the tank, causing a spark (and an earth-shattering KABOOM).

What came out in the trial(s) was that Ford engineers had devised a repair for it, which would have cost maybe $10 per car, and Ford management decided that it would be too costly to implement. You have to remember that this was the height of the oil crisis, Detroit had no idea how to build a decent small car and was hemorraghing money, and they cut every corner they could.

Are we in Havana yet? :wink:


The Cat In The Hat

Bantmof…Not in my opinion, I like your way of thinking. I don’t know too many two year olds who can climb fences. A wise person once told me, as a graphic designer, you can never UNDER estimate the intelligence of the human mind…so now I typeset the most ridiculous warnings on the packages I design…it keeps me amused tho so what can I say


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things.” --Edgar Degas