# DOGE; the department of Government Efficiency **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Tags:** elon-musk\ **Created:** [November 13, 2024, 11:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doge-the-department-of-government-efficiency/1010227 "2024-11-13T23:28:12Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Lance\_Turbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lance_turbo/32/6156_2.png) [@Lance\_Turbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lance_Turbo)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2024, 8:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doge-the-department-of-government-efficiency/1010227/61 "2024-11-15T08:25:13Z")
I’d get rid of DOGE. We already have the [Government Accountability Office](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Government_Accountability_Office). ---
**Author:** ![Horatius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/horatius/32/3572_2.png) [@Horatius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Horatius)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2024, 8:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doge-the-department-of-government-efficiency/1010227/62 "2024-11-15T08:39:41Z")
> [@dtilque](#): > > That’s essentially what commissions are in the federal government. The President is free to follow or ignore whatever recommendations the commissions come up with DOGE is going to be the government equivalent of “Nice place you’ve got here, it’d be a shame if anything _happened_ to it…” They’ll show up at a department with a mandate from Trump to “discuss” efficiency. Then they’ll make it clear to the people in charge; eliminate so many jobs on their own initiative, or they’ll (regrettably, of course!) have to report back to Trump that the department is being uncooperative, and then _who knows_ what will happen to their budget next year? So sad. If you were the person in charge, would _you_ want to play political chicken with Trump? ---
**Author:** ![Spoons](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spoons/32/3141_2.png) [@Spoons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoons)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2024, 8:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doge-the-department-of-government-efficiency/1010227/63 "2024-11-15T08:39:53Z")
No message. ---
**Author:** ![OldOlds](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/a3d4f5/32.png) [@OldOlds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OldOlds)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2024, 12:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doge-the-department-of-government-efficiency/1010227/64 "2024-11-15T12:38:46Z")
> [@Balthisar](#): > > In the private sector, competition causes us to be efficient. You have clearly never worked for a fortune 50 company. ---
**Author:** ![DavidNRockies](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidnrockies/32/6279_2.png) [@DavidNRockies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DavidNRockies)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2024, 1:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doge-the-department-of-government-efficiency/1010227/65 "2024-11-15T13:00:40Z")
> [@PhillyGuy](#): > > > [@Crafter\_Man](#): > > > > And there’s a _lot_ of people who are No Value Added™ in government. I could write a book on it. > > As a retired federal employee, I’d have to agree. When a supervisor, I fired a few of them, but maybe not as many as I should have. May I introduce to the discussion the Fallacy of Composition: > **[Fallacy of composition](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fallacy_of_composition)** > > The fallacy of composition is an informal fallacy that arises when one infers that something is true of the whole from the fact that it is true of some part of the whole. A trivial example might be: "This tire is made of rubber; therefore, the vehicle of which it is a part is also made of rubber." This is fallacious, because vehicles are made with a variety of parts, most of which are not made of rubber. The fallacy of composition can apply even when a fact is true of every proper part of a gr... I first learned of it while reading a book of Logical Fallacies as I leaned comfortably against Chesterton’s Fence. And then some jackhole inexplicably tore _down_ the fence, knocking me flat _and_ – far _worse_ spilling my beer. ---
**Author:** ![not\_what\_you\_d\_expect](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/not_what_you_d_expect/32/3246_2.png) [@not\_what\_you\_d\_expect](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/not_what_you_d_expect)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2024, 1:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doge-the-department-of-government-efficiency/1010227/66 "2024-11-15T13:34:06Z")
Here’s his latest idea. > **[Musk asks ‘high-IQ revolutionaries’ to work for no pay on new Trump project](https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2024/nov/14/elon-musk-trump)** > > World’s richest man solicits applications for ‘tedious work’ in newly formed Department of Government Efficiency Elon Musk and Vivek Ramaswamy are asking Americans who are “high-IQ small-government revolutionaries” and willing to work over 80 hours a week to join their new Department of Government Efficiency – at zero pay. In a new [X](https://www.theguardian.com/technology/twitter) post on Thursday that doubled as a job announcement and another one of Musk’s trolling attempts, the account for the newly formed Doge wrote: “We don’t need more part-time idea generators. We need super high-IQ small-government revolutionaries willing to work 80+ hours per week on unglamorous cost-cutting.” ---
**Author:** ![Half\_Man\_Half\_Wit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/half_man_half_wit/32/21766_2.png) [@Half\_Man\_Half\_Wit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Half_Man_Half_Wit)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2024, 1:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doge-the-department-of-government-efficiency/1010227/67 "2024-11-15T13:40:25Z")
Seems to me responding to this job ad convincingly demonstrates that one fails to satisfy the stated criteria. ---
**Author:** ![mozchron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c2a13f/32.png) [@mozchron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mozchron)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2024, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doge-the-department-of-government-efficiency/1010227/68 "2024-11-15T14:43:14Z")
> [@Crafter\_Man](#): > > Eliminate the Federal Department of Education. Let the states oversee education. > Eliminate the Federal Department of Labor. Let the states oversee labor. > Eliminate the Federal Department of Commerce. Let the states oversee commerce. > Eliminate the U.S. Post Office. > Reduce the size of the National Institute of Health by 80%. > Reduce the size of the General Services Administration by 80%. > Reduce the Department of Defense by 50%. > Overhaul Medicare and Medicaid Congratulations. I’ve been a member of the Dope for over 20 years. In that time I’ve seen many ignorant and asinine posts. But this is the top. The best. 10/10 no notes. My god. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2024, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doge-the-department-of-government-efficiency/1010227/69 "2024-11-15T14:52:35Z")
I mean, of course you could find inefficiencies, but “let’s cut this department by a round number percentage because I believe conspiracy t heories about Anthony Fauci” is just about the stupidest way you could go about it. You need to actually 1. Define “inefficiency.” Deciding the federal government should not be doing something at all because you think out of principle the states should be doing it is a valid position but it’s not exactly “inefficiency.” 2. Determine how to eliminate it and 3. Then transition away from the spending. Eliminating a pointless porkbarrel defense program is an obvious way to save a lot of money. The littoral combat ship program was a brutal example of that. But other forms of inefficiency can be a bit trickier to extract. How do you know if a given department is employing too many people? What’s your performance standard? I mean, I work with many different companies in my consulting business. You cannot just look at a company and say “let’s make it more efficient by cutting spending by 20 percent” or “let’s cut staff by ten percent, we’ll be more efficient that way.” That’s just mind-bogglingly dumb. ---
**Author:** ![Sigene](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/df788c/32.png) [@Sigene](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sigene)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2024, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doge-the-department-of-government-efficiency/1010227/70 "2024-11-15T14:58:28Z")
THis is indicative of the problem: "We should cut X. Ok, but not Xa because its useful and I work there. Yes, of course, we won’t cut Xa…so we’ll just make arangements and cut X - Xa Thanks, but…you know Xb does this too so we probably shouldn’t cut Xb either. Oh, yes…that’s right…so lets cut X -(Xa +Xb…) But. lets not forget … ad nauseum Like if we ever want to get rid of ‘govt workers’ the first thing that’s trotted out are teachers, police and firefighters.[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qc7HmhrgTuQ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qc7HmhrgTuQ) ---
**Author:** ![HoneyBadgerDC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/honeybadgerdc/32/1033_2.png) [@HoneyBadgerDC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HoneyBadgerDC)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2024, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doge-the-department-of-government-efficiency/1010227/71 "2024-11-15T15:10:09Z")
My son works from home in a government position. I know if he is not on an official 15 min break or 30 min lunch he is working. If he has to pick the kids up from school he skips his lunch. I don’t know how typical this is but it leads me to believe that working in an office may have more distractions than working from home. ---
**Author:** ![dtilque](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/d6d6ee/32.png) [@dtilque](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dtilque)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2024, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doge-the-department-of-government-efficiency/1010227/72 "2024-11-15T18:17:06Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > You cannot just look at a company and say “let’s make it more efficient by cutting spending by 20 percent” or “let’s cut staff by ten percent, we’ll be more efficient that way.” That’s just mind-bogglingly dumb. Yet, as far as I can tell, that’s Musk’s usual mode of operation. At least that the impression I got from the Tesla Supercharger department episode. ---
**Author:** ![Atamasama](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/atamasama/32/12961_2.png) [@Atamasama](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atamasama)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2024, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doge-the-department-of-government-efficiency/1010227/73 "2024-11-15T20:40:05Z")
> [@OldOlds](#): > > You have clearly never worked for a fortune 50 company. Yes, I can say that I have worked in almost every environment you can think of. City government, tribal government, federal government, state government (where I work now), small business, large business, massive global business… And it doesn’t matter if you are public or private sector. What drives inefficiency is size. If you work for a massive private entity, it’s going to be as bureaucratic as any government entity. As far as waste goes, because everything we do costs public funds we require a lot more justification and paperwork to spend money at my state agency. That was never the case for any private entity I’ve worked at. I’m sure a lot of waste can be trimmed in government as in any large organization, but you don’t look to the private sector for the model of how to do it. That’s like trying to put obedience training into your dog by attempting to make it act like a wolf. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2024, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doge-the-department-of-government-efficiency/1010227/74 "2024-11-15T21:10:03Z")
> [@not\_what\_you\_d\_expect](#): > > Elon Musk and Vivek Ramaswamy are asking Americans who are “high-IQ small-government revolutionaries” and willing to work over 80 hours a week to join their new Department of Government Efficiency – at zero pay. You left out the part where you can LITERALLY only apply for the “job” if you have a paid Twitter account. > **['Corruption is staggering': Musk makes paid-for X accounts only way to apply...](https://www.rawstory.com/corruption-is-staggering-musk-makes-paid-for-x-accounts-only-way-to-apply-for-doge-jobs/)** > > Billionaire Elon Musk is directing candidates interested in working in his new Department of Government Efficiency to submit their résumés through his social media platform X, — apparently granting himself and X access to what he describes as “super... This isn’t a government agency, it’s an MLM scheme. ---
**Author:** ![OldOlds](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/a3d4f5/32.png) [@OldOlds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OldOlds)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2024, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doge-the-department-of-government-efficiency/1010227/75 "2024-11-15T22:01:07Z")
> [@Atamasama](#): > > What drives inefficiency is size. My comment was directed at Balthisar, who said “In the private sector, competition causes us to be efficient” My point was that my time at the likes of GE tells me what you said is correct: What drives inefficiency is size. ---
**Author:** ![Pardel-Lux](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pardel-lux/32/20182_2.png) [@Pardel-Lux](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pardel-Lux)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2024, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doge-the-department-of-government-efficiency/1010227/76 "2024-11-15T22:32:49Z")
To increase government efficiency I would appoint Milo Minderbinder [head of DOGE](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cerberus). Oh, wait… ---
**Author:** ![squidfood](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a87d85/32.png) [@squidfood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/squidfood)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2024, 10:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doge-the-department-of-government-efficiency/1010227/77 "2024-11-15T22:45:12Z")
> [@Atamasama](#): > > As far as waste goes, because everything we do costs public funds we require a lot more justification and paperwork to spend money at my state agency. That was never the case for any private entity I’ve worked at. The elected people who are hottest to make cuts are also the ones who assume all bureaucrats are crooks, and that the work shouldn’t be funded anyway. So layering multiple multiple layers of costly paperwork and checks (impeding actual work) is by design. ---
**Author:** ![PhillyGuy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ed655f/32.png) [@PhillyGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PhillyGuy)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2024, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doge-the-department-of-government-efficiency/1010227/78 "2024-11-15T23:29:33Z")
> [@DavidNRockies](#): > > > [@PhillyGuy](#): > > > > > [@Crafter\_Man](#): > > > > > > And there’s a _lot_ of people who are No Value Added™ in government. I could write a book on it. > > > > As a retired federal employee, I’d have to agree. When a supervisor, I fired a few of them, but maybe not as many as I should have. > > May I introduce to the discussion the Fallacy of Composition: > . . . There are a lot of people who are No Value Added in any organization with many thousands of employees, government or not, (see last post by Atamasama). It could be a low percentage and still, absolutely, a lot. Perhaps our disagreement isn’t on the substance of U.S. government inefficiency, but on how to approach what Crafter\_Man wrote. I may not agree with the overall thrust, but want to agree with what I can before bringing out areas where I cannot agree. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2024, 1:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doge-the-department-of-government-efficiency/1010227/79 "2024-11-16T01:46:56Z")
Vivek Ramalamadingdong has decided it is necessary to cut 75% of Social Security recipients off the program. > Vivek: If your SSN ends in an odd, you’re out. If it ends in an even you’re in. That’s 50% cut right there. Of those who remain, if your SSN starts with an even, you’re in and if it starts with an odd you’re out. That’s 75% reduction. > ---
**Author:** ![EddyTeddyFreddy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eddyteddyfreddy/32/18796_2.png) [@EddyTeddyFreddy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EddyTeddyFreddy)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2024, 1:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doge-the-department-of-government-efficiency/1010227/80 "2024-11-16T01:55:35Z")
So this is real? I saw that somewhere else and thought that’s gotta be a parody, nobody could be THAT stupid, could they? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doge-the-department-of-government-efficiency/1010227.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doge-the-department-of-government-efficiency/1010227.md?page=5)