# DOGE; the department of Government Efficiency **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Tags:** elon-musk\ **Created:** [November 13, 2024, 11:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doge-the-department-of-government-efficiency/1010227 "2024-11-13T23:28:12Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![carrps](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carrps/32/2957_2.png) [@carrps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carrps)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2024, 2:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doge-the-department-of-government-efficiency/1010227/81 "2024-11-16T02:02:35Z")
> [@Crafter\_Man](#): > > At my previous position in a government agency, we would get castigated if we didn’t spend enough money. I thought it was nuts, and wasteful, of course. > > And there’s a _lot_ of people who are No Value Added™ in government. I could write a book on it. I worked nearly 40 years in a private corporation, and it was exactly the same there. Lots and LOTS of nepotism, too. ---
**Author:** ![Guest-starring\_Id](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guest-starring_id/32/21736_2.png) [@Guest-starring\_Id](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guest-starring_Id)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2024, 2:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doge-the-department-of-government-efficiency/1010227/82 "2024-11-16T02:03:39Z")
re: Vivek - Sure, I’m stil trying to process that one, too. ---
**Author:** ![Atamasama](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/atamasama/32/12961_2.png) [@Atamasama](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atamasama)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2024, 2:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doge-the-department-of-government-efficiency/1010227/83 "2024-11-16T02:04:35Z")
> [@EddyTeddyFreddy](#): > > So this is real? Yeah… A year ago, he proposed doing almost the same thing, except it was his way of firing federal workers. He has this weird fixation on SSNs. > **[Vivek Ramaswamy vows to fire federal workers based on Social Security...](https://nypost.com/2023/11/13/news/vivek-ramaswamy-vows-to-fire-federal-workers-based-on-social-security-numbers-nothing-will-break/)** > > Republican presidential hopeful Vivek Ramaswamy unveiled his plan to drastically cut the federal government over the weekend — announcing he would fire government workers based on their Social Secu… It was part of his pitch when he was trying to get the Republican presidential nomination. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2024, 2:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doge-the-department-of-government-efficiency/1010227/84 "2024-11-16T02:05:04Z")
That stupid? That’s the ceiling, not the floor. We’re heading into a black hole of stupid. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2024, 2:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doge-the-department-of-government-efficiency/1010227/85 "2024-11-16T02:15:22Z")
> [@Atamasama](#): > > Yeah… A year ago, he proposed doing almost the same thing, except it was his way of firing federal workers. He has this weird fixation on SSNs. Let’s run with that; if you’re on the Forbes 400 List (list of the 400 richest people in America) and your SSN ends in an odd number, you pay a fifty percent wealth tax. Next year, we do the same thing but for those with SSNs ending in even numbers. ---
**Author:** ![Q.Q.Switcheroo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/q.q.switcheroo/32/5713_2.png) [@Q.Q.Switcheroo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Q.Q.Switcheroo)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2024, 2:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doge-the-department-of-government-efficiency/1010227/86 "2024-11-16T02:42:56Z")
> [@EddyTeddyFreddy](#): > > So this is real? I saw that somewhere else and thought that’s gotta be a parody, nobody could be THAT stupid, could they? It has the ring of Laszlo Toth’s suggestion for conserving energy: make every American drink one glass of water more than usual on even-numbered days and one glass less on odd-numbered days, thus cumulatively creating a natural ebb-and-flow current that could move cargo ships up and down the St. Lawrence Seaway. ---
**Author:** ![duality72](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/duality72/32/3910_2.png) [@duality72](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/duality72)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2024, 7:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doge-the-department-of-government-efficiency/1010227/87 "2024-11-16T07:16:03Z")
> [@Crafter\_Man](#): > > Eliminate the Federal Department of Education. Let the states oversee education. > Eliminate the Federal Department of Labor. Let the states oversee labor. > Eliminate the Federal Department of Commerce. Let the states oversee commerce. Because large businesses love dealing with a tangled web of regulations from 50 agencies instead of one. Feel the efficiency! ---
**Author:** ![OldOlds](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/a3d4f5/32.png) [@OldOlds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OldOlds)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2024, 12:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doge-the-department-of-government-efficiency/1010227/88 "2024-11-16T12:08:51Z")
> [@duality72](#): > > Because large businesses love dealing with a tangled web of regulations from 50 agencies instead of one. Feel the efficiency! Right. Just ask anyone with a small business selling products around the country- it can cost $50k/yr in software and lawyers just to comply with all the different sales tax rules. My accountant tells me half of her customers running small businesses just wait to get busted and pay the fines, since it’s actually cheaper. Same here. ---
**Author:** ![MsRobyn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/90ced4/32.png) [@MsRobyn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MsRobyn)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2024, 12:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doge-the-department-of-government-efficiency/1010227/89 "2024-11-16T12:36:34Z")
I would definitely review the clearance process and maybe say no to agencies that claim to need them but never use them. It’s a drop in the bucket, I’m sure, but it’s a start. ---
**Author:** ![DavidNRockies](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidnrockies/32/6279_2.png) [@DavidNRockies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DavidNRockies)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2024, 12:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doge-the-department-of-government-efficiency/1010227/90 "2024-11-16T12:37:42Z")
I simply don’t agree with this. I’m not sure I even take from @Atamasama post the same thing that you do. To wit: > [@Atamasama](#): > > And it doesn’t matter if you are public or private sector. What drives inefficiency is size. If you work for a massive private entity, it’s going to be as bureaucratic as any government entity. > [@Atamasama](#): > > I’m sure a lot of waste can be trimmed in government as in any large organization, but you don’t look to the private sector for the model of how to do it. With the maniacal focus on cutting costs and maximizing profits, how many B-school white papers, or other credible and methodical reviews, have you seen where Corporate America has successfully whittled away waste and inefficiency? There is probably a correlation between size and inefficiency, but I would argue that – above all other factors – we have what @Crafter_Man got wrong: appearance or belief that isn’t actually supported by thorough analysis. There’s also the reality that the larger an organization gets, the fewer people an individual knows well, and/or understands the nature of their job to any substantive degree. There can be a bit of a “Welfare Queen” effect, where _everybody knows_ that the system is being rigged, or that Bob is a world-class slacker, but … once looked for with any measure of rigor … those things tend to vaporize. Now, don’t get me wrong. I have _long_ advocated that we implement some form or fashion of flat tax, and then convert the lion’s share of IRS employees into auditors, meticulously going over every dollar spent by the federal government. Following the money has a decent chance of ferreting out the 'waste, fraud, abuse" and inefficiency. But the mere fact that no politician – no matter how high a priority this was going to be – ever really achieved it to any meaningful degree leaves me highly skeptical that the ‘conventional wisdom’ is actually true. > [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > Vivek Ramalamadingdong has decided it is necessary to cut 75% of Social Security recipients off the program. This was NOT how he planned to reduce Social Security expenditures. It was how he planned to cut the Federal Work Force dramatically: > **[Vivek Ramaswamy says he would fire half of federal workforce at random - UPI.com](https://www.upi.com/Top_News/US/2023/11/13/vivek-ramaswamy-republican-fire-government-employees-random/1321699891708/)** > > Entrepreneur Vivek Ramaswamy says that if he is elected president of the United States, he would cut 50% of the government workforce at random on his first day in office. > **[Vivek Ramaswamy’s ‘thought experiment’ on reducing govt size: 'Even social...](https://www.businesstoday.in/world/us/story/vivek-ramaswamys-thought-experiment-on-reducing-govt-size-even-social-security-number-you-are-in-odd-you-are-out-453560-2024-11-13)** > > Vivek Ramaswamy shares 'thought experiment' with Lex Fridman on reducing government size. "I guarantee you, not a thing would have changed for the ordinary American," he said. > [@](#): > > “Here’s the solution: randomness,” Ramaswamy said. “Non-discretionary firings are legally defensible and avoid civil service rules.” > > Ramaswamy suggested using a random method to the firings, such as firing employees whose Social Security number ends in an odd number. > > “If that sounds too random, that’s exactly the point: No bureaucrat can allege their firing was discriminatory or politically retributive,” he added. “Absolutely _nothing_ will break as a result.” If you can cite where my take is wrong and yours is right, then – by all means – please do (I say that most sincerely). There’s enough to worry about without us getting BIG shit wrong. Let’s collectively try not to do that. And note that I think his plan is both horrifying and idiotic enough exactly as he lays it out. I don’t feel any burning need to make it seem worse 😉 ---
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2024, 12:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doge-the-department-of-government-efficiency/1010227/91 "2024-11-16T12:48:11Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > Define “inefficiency.” Deciding the federal government should not be doing something at all because you think out of principle the states should be doing it is a valid position but it’s not exactly “inefficiency.” My god, everyone needs to stop pretending like this is anything _remotely_ related to efficiency. We’ve all seen how Musk lies, right? His definition of “government efficiency” will involve: 1. Slashing regulatory agencies that impact his business. The SEC is dead. Dogecoin crypto scams, here we come! NPR runs a Musk-critical news segment? Slashed and buried. 2. Slashing agencies whose budgets can be redirected to his business. NASA’s budget gets directed to SpaceX (except the part about climate and weather research, which just gets cut entirely). Remember when he was worried about all “the bots” on Twitter and it turned out to be that “bots” were content that criticized him? That’s what “efficiency” will turn out to be: whatever lets him loot taxypayer money and run securities fraud without oversight. Not to mention, that if you actually look at the biggest inefficiencies in government, it’s not the workers. It’s private contractors and they way they lobby Congress to do stuff like build 2 submarines where one would’ve done fine. It is _private business_ that causes most government inefficiency. Musk isn’t going to touch that! He’s just going to attack workers in general, because he fucking hates workers, and he’s going to attack regulators because he’s a criminal and bad businessman who can’t succeed without breaking the law. ---
**Author:** ![Paul\_was\_in\_Saudi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/b77776/32.png) [@Paul\_was\_in\_Saudi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paul_was_in_Saudi)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2024, 12:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doge-the-department-of-government-efficiency/1010227/92 "2024-11-16T12:50:16Z")
I seem to recall the Sky Marshals have never prevented a hijacking. (Skyjacking? Just try to hijack an airplane now. The passengers would beat you into a bloody pulp.) ---
**Author:** ![Peter\_Morris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peter_morris/32/359_2.png) [@Peter\_Morris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peter_Morris)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2024, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doge-the-department-of-government-efficiency/1010227/93 "2024-11-16T15:15:14Z")
Anyone else thinking of the Britcom [Yes Minister](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yes_Minister), as I am? It was set in a fictional department of Government, the Department of Administrative Affairs, whose purpose was to oversee and eliminate inefficiency in all the other departments. A manual of why DOGE is a bad idea. Is this show much known in the USA? ---
**Author:** ![Paul\_was\_in\_Saudi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/b77776/32.png) [@Paul\_was\_in\_Saudi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paul_was_in_Saudi)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2024, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doge-the-department-of-government-efficiency/1010227/94 "2024-11-16T16:19:17Z")
> [@Peter\_Morris](#): > > Is this show much known in the USA? Yes, but a Quango dealing with Quangos is a mystery to most of us. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2024, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doge-the-department-of-government-efficiency/1010227/95 "2024-11-16T16:32:44Z")
> [@DavidNRockies](#): > > Applications for (becoming a physician) residencies are down in the US, but they are down at TWICE the rate in states that are imposing post-Dobbs restrictions on abortion. > > These doctors will NOT be able to access a family planning rotation in those states, limiting both their practice of medicine and in which states they could practice medicine. > > Red states: first, let’s trash public schools; next, remove all firearm regulations; then, let’s create health care deserts. > > What could possibly go wrong? If people would just inject some bleach, they wouldn’t need a doctor. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2024, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doge-the-department-of-government-efficiency/1010227/96 "2024-11-16T22:37:47Z")
> [@Crafter\_Man](#): > > Overhaul Medicare and Medicaid. How exactly do you propose doing this? My understanding is that Medicare and Medicaid are _already_ very efficient so that they have lower overhead costs than private insurance. Although one way that Medicare was “overhauled” was by introducing those damned privately operated Medicare Advantage plans, all of which are advertising at this time of year to get people to sign up. That suggests to me that there’s a _huge_ amount of money to be made in operating these plans, so how is that more efficient? ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2024, 11:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doge-the-department-of-government-efficiency/1010227/97 "2024-11-16T23:00:08Z")
> [@Dewey\_Finn](#): > > That suggests to me that there’s a _huge_ amount of money to be made in operating these plans, so how is that more efficient? That’s a question that should answer itself. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2024, 11:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doge-the-department-of-government-efficiency/1010227/98 "2024-11-16T23:12:51Z")
About three decades ago, I had to visit Johnson Space Center for a work project. Some of the people I worked with were government employees, some were employed by various contractors. Some of them told me that during the Reagan administration, there was a push to reduce government employment but that just meant that people went from being government employees to being employed by a contractor. Did that save money? Doubt it. And as said somewhere upthread or elsewhere, actual payroll is only a small part of what the government spends money on. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2024, 12:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doge-the-department-of-government-efficiency/1010227/99 "2024-11-17T00:23:49Z")
Is there any talk that Musk and Ramaswamy are going to make big cuts to the FBI or DOJ even if Gaetz were in charge? ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2024, 12:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doge-the-department-of-government-efficiency/1010227/100 "2024-11-17T00:29:26Z")
I believe Ramaswamy has talked about eliminating the FBI entirely, not just making big cuts. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doge-the-department-of-government-efficiency/1010227.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doge-the-department-of-government-efficiency/1010227.md?page=6)