# DOGE; the department of Government Efficiency **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Tags:** elon-musk\ **Created:** [November 13, 2024, 11:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doge-the-department-of-government-efficiency/1010227 "2024-11-13T23:28:12Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2024, 1:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doge-the-department-of-government-efficiency/1010227/101 "2024-11-17T01:40:03Z")
> [@DavidNRockies](#): > > This was NOT how he planned to reduce Social Security expenditures. It was how he planned to cut the Federal Work Force dramatically: I stand by my cite. He said what he said, he wants to cut Social Security recipients. He also wants to cut the federal workforce, also using Social Security numbers. He has a fixation with Social Security numbers. ---
**Author:** ![PhillyGuy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ed655f/32.png) [@PhillyGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PhillyGuy)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2024, 2:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doge-the-department-of-government-efficiency/1010227/102 "2024-11-17T02:17:20Z")
> [@Dewey\_Finn](#): > > I believe Ramaswamy has talked about eliminating the FBI entirely, not just making big cuts. Yes. He wants to defund our national police: [Vivek Ramaswamy wants to shut the FBI](https://www.yahoo.com/news/vivek-ramaswamy-wants-shut-fbi-214145631.html) For our British friends, this is equivalent to disbanding the National Crime agency as well as MI5. P.S. I doubt that most FBI’s functions will no longer be done. As implied earlier in the thread, these sorts like contracting out the work of federal employees. Maybe they could ask for MI5, DGSI, and the Shin Bet to bid on providing American counterintelligence. Then pick the low bidder. What could go wrong? ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2024, 2:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doge-the-department-of-government-efficiency/1010227/103 "2024-11-17T02:33:22Z")
I suspect they would prefer to outsource to private companies; they seem to think they’re somehow more “efficient” than government employees. ---
**Author:** ![Atamasama](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/atamasama/32/12961_2.png) [@Atamasama](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atamasama)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2024, 2:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doge-the-department-of-government-efficiency/1010227/104 "2024-11-17T02:58:02Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > I stand by my cite. He said what he said, he wants to cut Social Security recipients. Your cite says nothing of the sort. He’s talking about firing government workers. You’re making an incorrect assumption. ---
**Author:** ![Pardel-Lux](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pardel-lux/32/20182_2.png) [@Pardel-Lux](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pardel-Lux)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2024, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doge-the-department-of-government-efficiency/1010227/105 "2024-11-21T20:52:53Z")
I am not sure it is the solution to our problems, but somehow this article seems relevant to this discussion: > **[Discover the CIA’s Simple Sabotage Field Manual: A Timeless Guide to...](https://www.openculture.com/2024/11/the-cias-simple-sabotage-field-manual.html)** > > I’ve always admired people who can successfully navigate what I refer to as “Kafka’s Castle,” a term of dread for the many government and corporate agencies that have an inordinate amount of power over our permanent records, and that seem as... Fight inefficiency with inefficiency, sloth, incompetence and cupidity. What could be more trumpian? Feels like playing chess with a pigeon and letting it win. ---
**Author:** ![Hari\_Seldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hari_seldon/32/5173_2.png) [@Hari\_Seldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hari_Seldon)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2024, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doge-the-department-of-government-efficiency/1010227/106 "2024-11-21T21:26:12Z")
> [@Crafter\_Man](#): > > No, it would create 50 little OSHAs. Some states would forgo it. Recall how Texas passed a law making it illegal for a city in Texas to impose mandatory rest breaks for employees working out in the sun. There would certainly be no Texas OHSA and probably nowhere in the south. ---
**Author:** ![Crafter\_Man](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crafter_man/32/458_2.png) [@Crafter\_Man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crafter_Man)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2024, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doge-the-department-of-government-efficiency/1010227/107 "2024-11-21T22:12:14Z")
And that’s their prerogative. Texas can do whatever it wants as long as it doesn’t conflict with the federal constitution. (And if there’s evidence of a conflict, let the courts decide.) ---
**Author:** ![PastTense](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pasttense/32/14550_2.png) [@PastTense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PastTense)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2024, 3:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doge-the-department-of-government-efficiency/1010227/108 "2024-11-22T03:17:57Z")
Some of you seem to be a bit dubious about this organization. But what if I tell you: > **[Rep. Marjorie Taylor Greene tapped to work with Elon Musk and Vivek Ramaswamy...](https://www.cnbc.com/2024/11/21/marjorie-taylor-greene-elon-musk-ramaswamy-doge.html)** > > Greene's group will share the DOGE acronym with the entity commissioned by President-elect Donald Trump and led by billionaires Elon Musk and Vivek Ramaswamy. ---
**Author:** ![Horatius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/horatius/32/3572_2.png) [@Horatius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Horatius)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2024, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doge-the-department-of-government-efficiency/1010227/109 "2024-11-22T14:38:42Z")
> [@Hari\_Seldon](#): > > certainly be no Texas OHSA I don’t know, just rebrand it as the Office of Health and Safety Avoidance. Defending Texans’ rights to be sick and injured! ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2024, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doge-the-department-of-government-efficiency/1010227/110 "2024-11-22T15:34:46Z")
> [@Dewey\_Finn](#): > > About three decades ago, I had to visit Johnson Space Center for a work project. Some of the people I worked with were government employees, some were employed by various contractors. Some of them told me that during the Reagan administration, there was a push to reduce government employment but that just meant that people went from being government employees to being employed by a contractor. Did that save money? Doubt it. This is an example of inefficiency we see in the corporate world. My employer has had contractors on staff for years, sometimes decades, who work 40+ hours a week. Many of them actually cost us more than an employee would cost us. Why do we have them? The budget comes from different places. The department might have X budget for employees and the contractors don’t show up on that. Another reason is our IT department is hesitant to hire anyone unless they’ve had a chance to obeserve their work for a number of years. I’m actually worried someone is going to sue us for misclassification of an employee as a contractor one of these days. And sometimes we do keep workers around who add no value. A few years back we got rid of all our departmental administrative assistants. They’d been around for years, they did things that were necessary, but someone figured out all of that was automated and we just didn’t need them around any more. But we hadn’t really needed them for a number of years before finally laying them off. ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2024, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doge-the-department-of-government-efficiency/1010227/111 "2024-11-22T15:44:50Z")
> [@Dewey\_Finn](#): > > About three decades ago, I had to visit Johnson Space Center for a work project. Some of the people I worked with were government employees, some were employed by various contractors. Some of them told me that during the Reagan administration, there was a push to reduce government employment but that just meant that people went from being government employees to being employed by a contractor. Did that save money? Doubt it. Former NASA employees becoming contractors? You’re probably right. However, IME, replacing employees with contractors does save money. Some of my former positions in the USPTO are now handled by contractors. Data entry, copying files, etc.; our mailroom has been entirely staffed by contractors since before I was hired. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2024, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doge-the-department-of-government-efficiency/1010227/112 "2024-11-22T16:02:34Z")
> [@Skywatcher](#): > > However, IME, replacing employees with contractors does save money. Some of my former positions in the USPTO are now handled by contractors. Data entry, copying files, etc.; our mailroom has been entirely staffed by contractors since before I was hired. But are those contractors paid less, or more, or what? ---
**Author:** ![mozchron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c2a13f/32.png) [@mozchron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mozchron)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2024, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doge-the-department-of-government-efficiency/1010227/113 "2024-11-22T16:33:41Z")
Contracting out scut work can save money; they’ll contract with a third party firm that pays their workers shit. But laying off highly skilled workers and bringing them back as contractors is going to be much more expensive. FYI when I do consulting/contracting work in my area of expertise I charge 6X my normal estimated hourly wage. ---
**Author:** ![gnoitall](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bb73d2/32.png) [@gnoitall](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gnoitall)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2024, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doge-the-department-of-government-efficiency/1010227/114 "2024-11-22T16:51:49Z")
> [@mozchron](#): > > FYI when I do consulting/contracting work in my area of expertise I charge 6X my normal estimated hourly wage. Ah, but that way it’s sacred Capitalism. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2024, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doge-the-department-of-government-efficiency/1010227/115 "2024-11-22T16:53:40Z")
The third party firm might charge them $150 per contractor hour, but the person actually doing the job might get only $20-30 per hour (_completely_ made up numbers). And I know for my private-sector employer, there’s not just one third-party firm but several layers of them. That’s especially true as we might need people in Omaha, Houston, Seattle, Denver and Louisville. The third-party firm might not have local staff everywhere so they subcontract. ---
**Author:** ![Horatius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/horatius/32/3572_2.png) [@Horatius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Horatius)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2024, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doge-the-department-of-government-efficiency/1010227/116 "2024-11-22T17:09:33Z")
Another “reason” they give for using contractors is that it’s easier to get rid of them. A regular employee who is a member of a public service union is pretty hard to fire, unless they’re really incompetent or corrupt, and you can prove that. But if you’ve signed a time-limited contract, all you have to do is not renew that contract when it expires. Of course, in practice, they still very rarely get rid of anyone this way. So you have “short term contractors” doing the job for many years. ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2024, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doge-the-department-of-government-efficiency/1010227/117 "2024-11-22T17:18:11Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > But are those contractors paid less, or more, or what? I don’t know what their salary structure is like but there are fewer contractors working the same jobs my colleagues and I had. ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2024, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doge-the-department-of-government-efficiency/1010227/118 "2024-11-22T17:22:54Z")
> [@Crafter\_Man](#): > > And that’s their prerogative. > > Texas can do whatever it wants as long as it doesn’t conflict with the federal constitution. (And if there’s evidence of a conflict, let the courts decide.) And you think that’s a good thing? ---
**Author:** ![Crafter\_Man](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crafter_man/32/458_2.png) [@Crafter\_Man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crafter_Man)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2024, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doge-the-department-of-government-efficiency/1010227/119 "2024-11-22T17:27:19Z")
Yep. I’m a big fan of the 10th Amendment. The U.S. is a federation of states. If you live in Texas, but don’t like the laws of Texas, move to a state of your liking. ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2024, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doge-the-department-of-government-efficiency/1010227/120 "2024-11-22T17:38:36Z")
First thing I would do is consolidate departments. Note I did not say eliminate Dept of Agriculture, Energy, Transportation, Labor is now part of the Department of Commerce HUD & EPA is now part of the Department of the Interior Veterans Affairs is now under Dept of Defense Homeland Security is under Department of Justice as part of the FBI I would agree with Trump that the Department of Education could be disbanded but in its place put in an Office of Civil Rights under HHS that would deal with Civil Rights issues in education, business, voter registration, etc. and transfer Sally Mae over to the Commerce Department. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doge-the-department-of-government-efficiency/1010227.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doge-the-department-of-government-efficiency/1010227.md?page=7)