# Dogfights in the post Top Gun era? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [August 17, 2020, 2:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dogfights-in-the-post-top-gun-era/918290 "2020-08-17T02:14:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2020, 1:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dogfights-in-the-post-top-gun-era/918290/21 "2020-08-21T01:55:25Z")
Wasn’t it because they (the Libyans or whoever) were being threatening but had not actually done anything so Maverick’s pals got in nearby to hopefully scare them off and then the Libyans (or whoever) decided to start a fight? And remember, Maverick was launched after the fight started. I am not sure shooting a Phoenix missile into a mess of planes dog-fighting that include your pals is a good idea. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2020, 2:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dogfights-in-the-post-top-gun-era/918290/22 "2020-08-21T02:51:41Z")
Yes, you are correct. Iceman and Hollywood were flying the Combat Air Patrol while Maverick’s aircraft was on standby as the “Alert Five”. So by the time Maverick got called into action and sorted his personal shit out, Iceman was already mixing it up with half a dozen Migs. I’ll have to check the movie again. There might have been some stated rule of engagement where the Navy couldn’t fire first so the Libyans waited until they were right on top of the Navy fighters, ---
**Author:** ![smithsb](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smithsb/32/12107_2.png) [@smithsb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smithsb)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2020, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dogfights-in-the-post-top-gun-era/918290/23 "2020-08-21T15:08:30Z")
Rules of engagement for the win. To launch a missile, the pilot has to have confirmation of who the bogey is. Can be visual by pilot or wingman, bad intent (they’ve launched a missile at you), visual from ground or other observer, AWACS or other sensor confirmation. By the time its identity is confirmed, you’ll be around 10 miles or so and closing rapidly. Whether a gun dogfight or short range IR missile engagement; maneuvering will be critical for survival. Launching at beyond visual range would be an all out war scenario; not like current hot spots where a commercial airliner could end up as the target. Also, many situations have allied aircraft that may/may not be in direct communication or have different tactics/flight characteristics. ---
**Author:** ![Machine\_Elf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/82dd89/32.png) [@Machine\_Elf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Machine_Elf)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2020, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dogfights-in-the-post-top-gun-era/918290/24 "2020-08-21T16:08:30Z")
> [@smithsb](#): > > By the time its identity is confirmed, you’ll be around 10 miles or so and closing rapidly. “Rapidly” is an understatement. If each party is flying at 500 MPH, they can close a 10-mile gap in just 36 seconds. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2020, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dogfights-in-the-post-top-gun-era/918290/25 "2020-08-21T21:26:56Z")
Yeah. Supposedly the MiGs were 100 miles(ish) from the carrier. When watching the movie I wondered what use Maverick was when he was on the deck when the fight started. But the F14 can do 1500+ mph which would get him to the fight in about four minutes. Actually longer since there is speed-up/slow-down time in there. Still…mighty fast. That said, I suspect Iceman in a dogfight out numbered as he was would find 4-6 minutes an eternity. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2020, 12:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dogfights-in-the-post-top-gun-era/918290/26 "2020-08-24T12:43:25Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > I understand why in the movie, they were dogfighting during all the training scenes. I don’t recall if there was an in-movie explanation for why in the real world combat, Maverick and company didn’t just fire off their AIM-54 Phoenix missiles from a hundred miles away. Other than it would make for a boring finale. The firing sequence, the fire control RADAR Switching on, the launch, and the terminal active homing, all would alert the opposition aircraft Radar Warning Receiver. And they would start to evade. Phoenix’s were designed to kill big ass lumbering bombers. Ninjke Fighters not so much. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2020, 3:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dogfights-in-the-post-top-gun-era/918290/27 "2020-08-29T03:55:52Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > And they would start to evade. > Phoenix’s were designed to kill big ass lumbering bombers. Ninjke Fighters not so much. IIRC the Phoenix missile means of attack is to fly waaaaaay high and then come screaming down on top of the plane it was targeted at. Apparently this is effective unless the plane being targeted flies straight-up(ish) towards the missile and does little jukes along the way. Apparently the Phoenix can’t cope with that very well. So yeah, big bombers can’t do that, fighter jets can. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2020, 4:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dogfights-in-the-post-top-gun-era/918290/28 "2020-08-29T04:02:16Z")
So…Soviet trained flying Soviet planes it seems. Maybe it was Korea then that had Soviet pilots flying on behalf of the other country? > Unlike North Korea, Nationalist China invaded [French Indochina](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_Indochina) (Vietnam) in 1945 to regain the region from the occupying Japanese military at the end of [World War II](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_II).[[3]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air-to-air_combat_losses_between_the_Soviet_Union_and_the_United_States#cite_note-3) Unable to gain a foothold in North Vietnam. Student North Vietnamese MiG pilots were sent to China and the Soviet Union for up to three years for training. Student [North Vietnamese](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Vietnamese) [SAM](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surface-to-air_missile) operators were sent to the USSR for about six to nine months of training.[[4]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air-to-air_combat_losses_between_the_Soviet_Union_and_the_United_States#cite_note-4)[[5]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air-to-air_combat_losses_between_the_Soviet_Union_and_the_United_States#cite_note-5) Soviet and [Chinese Communist](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_Communist) pilots were restricted to test flying MiGs which had been exported to North Vietnam from their countries.[[6]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air-to-air_combat_losses_between_the_Soviet_Union_and_the_United_States#cite_note-6)[[7]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air-to-air_combat_losses_between_the_Soviet_Union_and_the_United_States#cite_note-7) Due to the urgency brought on by [Operation Rolling Thunder](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Rolling_Thunder), and until North Vietnamese missilemen could be trained, Soviet PVO SAM Anti-Aircraft Missile operator/instructors were quickly deployed to North Vietnam in 1965, and through 1966 were responsible for downing approximately 48 US aircraft during the course of defending North Vietnam.[[8]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air-to-air_combat_losses_between_the_Soviet_Union_and_the_United_States#cite_note-8)[[9]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air-to-air_combat_losses_between_the_Soviet_Union_and_the_United_States#cite_note-acepilots.com-9) There is one reported ace pilot from the USSR nevertheless, [Col. Vadim Shcherbakov](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vadim_Shcherbakov) who is credited with 6 air-to-air kills.[[10]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air-to-air_combat_losses_between_the_Soviet_Union_and_the_United_States#cite_note-10) - [SOURCE](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air-to-air_combat_losses_between_the_Soviet_Union_and_the_United_States#Vietnam_War) ---
**Author:** ![I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/i_love_me_vol.i/32/521_2.png) [@I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/I_Love_Me_Vol.I)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2020, 4:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dogfights-in-the-post-top-gun-era/918290/29 "2020-08-29T04:24:28Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > AMRAAM was used at BVR range. I’m curious… when you write “BVR” do you 1. Assume that we all know what that means. 2. Believe that this is an aerial warfare forum so even if we don’t know it, we should. 3. Not give a fuck. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2020, 4:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dogfights-in-the-post-top-gun-era/918290/30 "2020-08-29T04:26:46Z")
> [@I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](#): > > I’m curious… when you write “BVR” do you > > 1. Assume that we all know what that means > 2. Believe that this is an aerial warfare forum so even if we don’t know it, we should > 3. Not give a fuck Beyond Visual Range ---
**Author:** ![I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/i_love_me_vol.i/32/521_2.png) [@I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/I_Love_Me_Vol.I)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2020, 4:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dogfights-in-the-post-top-gun-era/918290/31 "2020-08-29T04:27:14Z")
Thanks, but that doesn’t answer the question ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2020, 4:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dogfights-in-the-post-top-gun-era/918290/32 "2020-08-29T04:53:02Z")
Is this a big deal? I mean, you could [just Google that](https://bfy.tw/OuUY). The answer is the third result (for me anyway). ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2020, 5:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dogfights-in-the-post-top-gun-era/918290/33 "2020-08-29T05:05:04Z")
> [@I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](#): > > > [@AK84](#): > > > > AMRAAM was used at BVR range. > > I’m curious… when you write “BVR” do you > > 1. Assume that we all know what that means. > 2. Believe that this is an aerial warfare forum so even if we don’t know it, we should. > 3. Not give a fuck. **Moderator Note** Let’s keep this kind of snark out of this forum. I’ve noticed that you have several recent reports due to this kind of response. I am instructing you to keep your responses factual in this forum. Colibri General Questions Moderator ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2020, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dogfights-in-the-post-top-gun-era/918290/34 "2020-08-31T14:04:40Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > Phoenix’s were designed to kill big ass lumbering bombers. Ninjke Fighters not so much. Not true. What sort of big-ass lumbering bombers do you envision would have been attacking USN carrier battle groups in the 1970s and 1980s? That was more of a “shoot first, at extremely long range” kind of idea with the AIM-54 Phoenix and the F-14 radar. Then, they could close in with Sparrows and Sidewinders if need be. During the movie, it was very clear that it was a rules of engagement issue; they were doing a lot of maneuvering at close range without actually firing, until one side or the other (I can’t recall who fired first) was given the green light to fire. At that point, the mock dogfighting became the real thing, and they were much too close for anything other than Sidewinders and guns at that point. Had it been a wartime situation as opposed to a peacetime skirmish sort of thing, they’d almost certainly have tried the Phoenixes first, as the rules of engagement would have been different. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2020, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dogfights-in-the-post-top-gun-era/918290/35 "2020-08-31T14:28:20Z")
> [@bump](#): > > Not true. What sort of big-ass lumbering bombers do you envision would have been attacking USN carrier battle groups in the 1970s and 1980s? Err, Bears, Badgers and Backfires and closer to shore Fencers. Gorshkov assigned whole regiments to target just one group. The Phoenix wasn’t really useful against fighters beyond 20nm as the Iranians discovered. > **[Flying & fighting in the F-14 Tomcat: Interview with an Iranian fighter ace](https://hushkit.net/2020/02/27/flying-fighting-in-the-f-14-tomcat-interview-with-an-iranian-fighter-ace/)** > > The F-14 fighter garnered global fame as the star of the extremely American Top Gun film, but in an unlikely twist of fate, the vast bulk of the Tomcat’s air combat experience actually took p… ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2020, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dogfights-in-the-post-top-gun-era/918290/36 "2020-08-31T15:57:35Z")
I always figured the Soviets had something more sophisticated up their sleeves than just overwhelming a carrier battle group with entire regiments of bombers. I would also guess that the plan was to use the Phoenixes vs. incoming fighters as well- with the exception of logistical constraints, why wouldn’t we? ---
**Author:** ![ASL\_v2.0](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asl_v2.0/32/3525_2.png) [@ASL\_v2.0](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ASL_v2.0)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2020, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dogfights-in-the-post-top-gun-era/918290/37 "2020-08-31T16:08:39Z")
> [@bump](#): > > I always figured the Soviets had something more sophisticated up their sleeves than just overwhelming a carrier battle group with entire regiments of bombers. I believe (or suspect) the idea was to load the bombers up with anti-ship missiles and release them at or beyond stand-off distance relative to ship’s weapons systems and effectively overwhelm the strike groups with what amounted to unmanned kamikazees that were much better at low-level and tight maneuvering (referring to the anti-ship missiles) than your average 20-something pressed out of service and given a few hours of flying lessons ever could have been. The idea of the Phoenix, then, was to have something that could “kill the archer” before the swarm or stream of missiles could be unleashed. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2020, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dogfights-in-the-post-top-gun-era/918290/38 "2020-08-31T16:18:17Z")
> [@ASL\_v2.0](#): > > I believe (or suspect) the idea was to load the bombers up with anti-ship missiles and release them at or beyond stand-off distance relative to ship’s weapons systems and effectively overwhelm the strike groups with what amounted to unmanned kamikazees that were much better at low-level and tight maneuvering (referring to the anti-ship missiles) than your average 20-something pressed out of service and given a few hours of flying lessons ever could have been. > > The idea of the Phoenix, then, was to have something that could “kill the archer” before the swarm or stream of missiles could be unleashed. Yup. And in Red Storm Rising (Clancy,) the Soviets not just launched a barrage of missiles, but had a swarm of decoy missile-mimicking drones flying ahead of them, so as to deplete the American Aegis and other defenses of their valuable interceptor missiles. But getting off topic. ---
**Author:** ![gnarator](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gnarator/32/8266_2.png) [@gnarator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gnarator)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2020, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dogfights-in-the-post-top-gun-era/918290/39 "2020-08-31T17:08:18Z")
There were Soviet pilots flying MIG-15s in the Korean war. It was long suspected, but didn’t become openly acknowledged until after the end of the cold war. I didn’t know Soviet pilots flew in Vietnam, though. The VPAF used the MIG-17, an updated version of the MIG-15, to great effect in the Vietnam war. The subsonic MIG-17 was widely considered to be obsolete, so it was something of a surprise to the USAF and USN that slow and elderly interceptors could down sophisticated Mach 2 F-105s and F-4s. I think the Top Gun and other programs came out of the response to these older, slower yet agile Soviet fighters. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2020, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dogfights-in-the-post-top-gun-era/918290/40 "2020-08-31T18:37:12Z")
> [@bump](#): > > I always figured the Soviets had something more sophisticated up their sleeves than just overwhelming a carrier battle group with entire regiments of bombers. Bombers, guided to their targets by Ocean Recon satellites, supported by EW aircraft, firing off salvos of guided cruise missile sounds pretty darn sophisticated. And if you have 200 missile launched at a carrier group, that ends only one way, a dead carrier…even if you shoot down 90% of the incoming (very optimistic). These were big missile with large warheads, they would break everything upto a cruiser in two and 3/4 of most likely sink a carrier. As others have said, you needed to kill the bombers _before_ they released their missiles and by the late 1960’s it was clear that the Sparrow armed Phantoms were not going to cut it. > [@bump](#): > > I would also guess that the plan was to use the Phoenixes vs. incoming fighters as well- with the exception of logistical constraints, why wouldn’t we? There was no restriction obviously, but the Soviets lacked substantial carrier aircraft for the duration of the Cold War and any pre mid-1970’s. The most likely opponent for the TomCat unless operating near shore bases was the bomber regiments. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dogfights-in-the-post-top-gun-era/918290.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dogfights-in-the-post-top-gun-era/918290.md?page=3)