# Dogs: petting the top of the head and ears **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [November 12, 2013, 12:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dogs-petting-the-top-of-the-head-and-ears/673716 "2013-11-12T12:00:44Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![gracer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8e7dd6/32.png) [@gracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gracer)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2013, 12:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dogs-petting-the-top-of-the-head-and-ears/673716/1 "2013-11-12T12:00:44Z")
So my neighbours have a gorgeous young border collie. She’s adorable and impossible not to pet. But they say I can’t pat her on the head because it will make her ears droop. This sounds wildly implausible to me, but I thought I’d better check. How on earth could a pat on the head, or scritches on the head, make her ears droop? Surely you’d have to regularly & forcefully tug her ears down or something? I wasn’t planning on abusing her ears, and would gladly refrain from gentle petting or ear scritches if it will somehow ruin her (:rolleyes:), but the _top of the head_ just sounds nonsensical. ---
**Author:** ![saje](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saje/32/3631_2.png) [@saje](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/saje)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2013, 12:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dogs-petting-the-top-of-the-head-and-ears/673716/2 "2013-11-12T12:50:37Z")
That’s nuts. Yes, it might make her _put_ her ears down for a moment, as a muscular reflex, but permanently damage them?? Guess they’ve never watched dogs play together or roll around in the grass for the sheer joy of it. Those ears get mashed a lot! ---
**Author:** ![IvoryTowerDenizen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ivorytowerdenizen/32/17937_2.png) [@IvoryTowerDenizen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IvoryTowerDenizen)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2013, 12:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dogs-petting-the-top-of-the-head-and-ears/673716/3 "2013-11-12T12:54:29Z")
I have a Sheltie and when I pet her head her ears droop. But then they go back up when I’m done. Its not permanent… They’re not drooping because she’s upset or anything,it’s just a muscle response. What exactly is their concern? 😕 ETA: here’s a thread from a border collie message board that does suggest too much messing with ears early on can damage the cartalidge and cause tipping, drooping. Don’t know how accurate. > **["Ear Confusion" and growth/taping](https://boards.bordercollie.org/topic/8634-ear-confusion-and-growthtaping/)** > > I did a search for topics like this and didn't come up with anything that answered my question, so I'll post it here. Dakota, my 11 week old BC, started out with two perfect, 'tipped down' ears. After a few days, his right ear began to perk up, but... ---
**Author:** ![sandra\_nz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/eada6e/32.png) [@sandra\_nz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sandra_nz)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2013, 1:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dogs-petting-the-top-of-the-head-and-ears/673716/4 "2013-11-12T13:03:45Z")
Do you live next door to a farm? Or have they acquired a border collie as a house pet? ---
**Author:** ![lieu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/c2a13f/32.png) [@lieu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lieu)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2013, 1:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dogs-petting-the-top-of-the-head-and-ears/673716/5 "2013-11-12T13:13:52Z")
'Course it’s a pretty simple matter to scratch her on the head without actually bending her ears down or ‘compromising her cartilage integrity.’ Your neighbors, helicopter parenting extended to pets. ---
**Author:** ![gracer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8e7dd6/32.png) [@gracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gracer)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2013, 1:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dogs-petting-the-top-of-the-head-and-ears/673716/6 "2013-11-12T13:19:09Z")
> [@sandra\_nz](#): > > Do you live next door to a farm? Or have they acquired a border collie as a house pet? House pet. There are not enough :rolleyes:-s to cover my feelings on the matter. She gets one teensy walk and one short walk a day, and a longer one at the park on the weekend. They very seriously looked me in the eye and told me that border collies are the best breed for a small flat, because they don’t mind sitting still all day and can hold their pee for a long time. Like I said: not enough :rolleyes:-s in the world. The thread where I vented is [here](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=690646). This is why I doubted the ear damage thing. > [@IvoryTowerDenizen](#): > > I have a Sheltie and when I pet her head her ears droop. But then they go back up when I’m done. Its not permanent… They’re not drooping because she’s upset or anything,it’s just a muscle response. > > What exactly is their concern? 😕 > > ETA: here’s a thread from a border collie message board that does suggest too much messing with ears early on can damage the cartalidge and cause tipping, drooping. Don’t know how accurate. > > [http://www.bordercollie.org/boards/index.php?showtopic=8634](http://www.bordercollie.org/boards/index.php?showtopic=8634) Their concern is they want to show her, so she has to be perfect. :rolleyes: Frankly, it makes me think of Toddlers and Tiaras, breast implants for border collies, bleaching dog teeth. I can’t imagine a dog gets any happier from being faffed about, but I have no experience there so I guess I’ll give them the benefit of the doubt while I see how it goes and judge when I know what it actually entails. She’s only 7 months old, so perhaps there is something to it then, I’ll take a look at the thread! ---
**Author:** ![lieu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/c2a13f/32.png) [@lieu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lieu)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2013, 1:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dogs-petting-the-top-of-the-head-and-ears/673716/7 "2013-11-12T13:42:04Z")
> [@gracer](#): > > House pet. There are not enough :rolleyes:-s to cover my feelings on the matter. She gets one teensy walk and one short walk a day, and a longer one at the park on the weekend. They very seriously looked me in the eye and told me that border collies are the best breed for a small flat, because they don’t mind sitting still all day and can hold their pee for a long time. Like I said: not enough :rolleyes:-s in the world. The thread where I vented is [here](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=690646). Border collies are also very intelligent and as such thrive on mental stimulation. Leaving them alone or without a way to expend their abundant energy is just inviting them to act badly like chewing things or the like out of sheer boredom. These people, they don’t seem to actually know much about dogs or care about learning. ---
**Author:** ![sandra\_nz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/eada6e/32.png) [@sandra\_nz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sandra_nz)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2013, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dogs-petting-the-top-of-the-head-and-ears/673716/8 "2013-11-12T14:04:32Z")
I don’t know what’s worse. The fact that they’ve decided a border collie is the right pet for their small flat, or the fact that a breeder (presumably of some repute, if the dog is show-worthy) agreed to sell it to them. ☹ ---
**Author:** ![gracer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8e7dd6/32.png) [@gracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gracer)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2013, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dogs-petting-the-top-of-the-head-and-ears/673716/9 "2013-11-12T14:59:23Z")
> [@sandra\_nz](#): > > I don’t know what’s worse. The fact that they’ve decided a border collie is the right pet for their small flat, or the fact that a breeder (presumably of some repute, if the dog is show-worthy) agreed to sell it to them. ☹ It was the breeder who told them about the ear thing, 'nuff said. I’ll give you three cruelties to decide between: they also shipped her thousands of miles at the age of a few months, going from person to person in a crate for days. She’s a neurotic wreck now. Poor pup. I should probably stop, this is just getting me riled up. I just wanted to know if the ear thing is true so I can at least muss her cute little head when they’re not watching. I wouldn’t do it if it actually made a difference, it is their dog I guess, but if it’s complete rubbish then I’m mussing away. Not the ears, just her head. I’ll do a kissy sound at her from you guys, she loves that! 😛 ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2013, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dogs-petting-the-top-of-the-head-and-ears/673716/10 "2013-11-12T15:25:34Z")
Some dogs simply don’t like being pet on the head. It’s generally advised to not go over a dog to pet him/her, but rather under if you don’t know them very well. Some dogs find it threatening, just like looking directly into their eyes is sometimes perceived as threatening. Perhaps that was their concern and they didn’t explain it well. ---
**Author:** ![HoneyBadgerDC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/honeybadgerdc/32/1033_2.png) [@HoneyBadgerDC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HoneyBadgerDC)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2013, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dogs-petting-the-top-of-the-head-and-ears/673716/11 "2013-11-12T15:28:16Z")
There may be a tiny bit of truth to what they said. A dogs attitude will cause him to carry his tail and ears in a certain fashion. Being patted on the head I believe is a submissive state of mind. When a judge starts to go over the dog to check his confrmation he may anticipate a pat on th head and lower his ears submissively. Kind of a shot in the dark but possible I believe. ---
**Author:** ![gracer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8e7dd6/32.png) [@gracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gracer)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2013, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dogs-petting-the-top-of-the-head-and-ears/673716/12 "2013-11-12T15:51:08Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > Some dogs simply don’t like being pet on the head. It’s generally advised to not go over a dog to pet him/her, but rather under if you don’t know them very well. Some dogs find it threatening, just like looking directly into their eyes is sometimes perceived as threatening. Perhaps that was their concern and they didn’t explain it well. Definitely not that. She adores me, is one thing. I have rather a lot more experience with dogs than they do, is another. Third, we had two whole conversations about it in which they made very clear that the breeder told them that touching the top of her head would ruin her ears, I said I didn’t think that sounded very plausible and they said “please just don’t touch the top of her head because it will ruin her ears”. Perhaps what **HoneyBadgerDC** said? But then, that’s not the same as not touching the head _ever_. They asked me twice (separately, and the second time because I forgot). Both times I was on dog level and very gently touching the top of her head, not really a dominant thing. Not the same as standing up and mussing the head. They didn’t want _any_ touching of her head, only the sides. ---
**Author:** ![HoneyBadgerDC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/honeybadgerdc/32/1033_2.png) [@HoneyBadgerDC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HoneyBadgerDC)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2013, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dogs-petting-the-top-of-the-head-and-ears/673716/13 "2013-11-12T16:53:13Z")
Dog people can sometimes get a bit out there. Just like a lot of other competitions they will do almost anything to win. I knew a lady who insisted that an old pro trick to make a dog stand tall and straight when stacked as they do in a show ring, is to use one finger to stroke the side of the dogs penis. She claims he will equate show and being stacked to sex. I sometimes wonder how far she took this. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2013, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dogs-petting-the-top-of-the-head-and-ears/673716/14 "2013-11-12T17:53:09Z")
> [@gracer](#): > > we had two whole conversations about it in which they made very clear that the breeder told them that touching the top of her head would ruin her ears, I said I didn’t think that sounded very plausible and they said “please just don’t touch the top of her head because it will ruin her ears”. I wouldn’t talk to them about this any more, because it will ruin your brain. Their contention is nuts. Of course, I’ve only ever had spaniels and Labradors, and it’d be hard to get their ears to droop any more than they do naturally. But I will stop patting our current dog on the head. I’d hate to have her ears droop so low that she trips over them. ---
**Author:** ![HoneyBadgerDC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/honeybadgerdc/32/1033_2.png) [@HoneyBadgerDC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HoneyBadgerDC)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2013, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dogs-petting-the-top-of-the-head-and-ears/673716/15 "2013-11-12T18:03:29Z")
Think about it this was, if everytime you did a good job at work the boss patted you on the head instead of patting you on the back. How might you respond? Dog shows are very competitive, if a dog anticipates a pat on the head he will lower his ears and not look as good to the judges. It does make good sense. ---
**Author:** ![brainstall](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/35a633/32.png) [@brainstall](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brainstall)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2013, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dogs-petting-the-top-of-the-head-and-ears/673716/16 "2013-11-12T18:32:57Z")
My guess is they are never going to show this dog, but that they like thinking they have a ‘show dog’. As such, the breeder’s word on all things related to showing must be taken as gospel, as the breeder must know all about it, being a a breeder of quality show dogs. :rolleyes: Just curious, have they done any training to prep the dog for the show ring or do they just talk about it? All that aside, I didn’t realize there was a standard for border collie ears. Or are prick ears just more desirable? For the record, I’ve been smushing the heads and ears of my pointy-eared dogs since they were puppies and have yet to succeed in making them less pointy-eared. The breeder is full of it and your neighbours are clueless and I suppose they deserve each other. Poor pup. ---
**Author:** ![TruCelt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/trucelt/32/523_2.png) [@TruCelt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TruCelt)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2013, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dogs-petting-the-top-of-the-head-and-ears/673716/17 "2013-11-12T21:26:42Z")
> [@HoneyBadgerDC](#): > > There may be a tiny bit of truth to what they said. A dogs attitude will cause him to carry his tail and ears in a certain fashion. Being patted on the head I believe is a submissive state of mind. When a judge starts to go over the dog to check his confrmation he may anticipate a pat on th head and lower his ears submissively. Kind of a shot in the dark but possible I believe. This. When you are raising show dogs there are certain things you don’t teach them. You don’t teach them sit, you teach “Stack”. You don’t teach them to “come” because it makes it easy for an audience member to make them break stride by murmuring the word. And you don’t pet them on the head because ears dropping when the judge approaches can make the difference in a tie. A lot of it is woo, or at least myth, and different groups and breeds have different myths they follow. White coated breeds spawn all sorts of dietary advice to prevent black eye goop, etc. ETA: And when you are showing a working breed they’d best have good muscle development. Might be a useful tidbit to drop - motivate them to get him some real exercise. ---
**Author:** ![gracer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8e7dd6/32.png) [@gracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gracer)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2013, 9:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dogs-petting-the-top-of-the-head-and-ears/673716/18 "2013-11-13T09:45:08Z")
> [@TruCelt](#): > > ETA: And when you are showing a working breed they’d best have good muscle development. Might be a useful tidbit to drop - motivate them to get him some real exercise. Wow, good one, will definitely do that! But I think **brainstall** is right: I don’t think they will end up showing her. They have no experience, and they haven’t been teaching her to stack or anything. I think it’s just a pride thing. I have no idea what the ears are supposed to be like… ---
**Author:** ![Leo\_Bloom](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leo_bloom/32/10377_2.png) [@Leo\_Bloom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leo_Bloom)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2013, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dogs-petting-the-top-of-the-head-and-ears/673716/19 "2013-11-13T14:27:21Z")
> [@HoneyBadgerDC](#): > > Dog people can sometimes get a bit out there. Just like a lot of other competitions they will do almost anything to win. I knew a lady who insisted that an old pro trick to make a dog stand tall and straight when stacked as they do in a show ring, is to use one finger to stroke the side of the dogs penis. She claims he will equate show and being stacked to sex. I sometimes wonder how far she took this. Being stacked is related to sex. Just saw: also prick ears. Disclaimer: my dog’s breeder shows her own dogs and is a handler. ---
**Author:** ![Amateur\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/59ef9b/32.png) [@Amateur\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Amateur_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2013, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dogs-petting-the-top-of-the-head-and-ears/673716/20 "2013-11-13T15:45:38Z")
And then some dogs get their head and ears rubbed whether YOU want to or not. My boy Dane simply chases my hand until I give him a good rub and scratch; barring that, he will roll his head under (tucking his muzzle against his chest) and rub/scratch the top of his bony head against the couch or mattress or me until he’s had enough. Or until he’s pushed the couch/mattress/me far enough. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dogs-petting-the-top-of-the-head-and-ears/673716.md?page=2)