# Dogs, Sex, and Morality **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 8, 2011, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dogs-sex-and-morality/595645 "2011-09-08T19:03:48Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![JohnnyMac](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e9c0ed/32.png) [@JohnnyMac](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnnyMac)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2011, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dogs-sex-and-morality/595645/1 "2011-09-08T19:03:48Z")
I apologise in advance for posting something that sounds like it’s from the Jeremy Kyle show, but this is the first time I’ve been confronted with something like this in meatspace, and I really have to know. A friend of mine was in hospital a couple weeks ago for a sprained wrist, broken ribs, and some other injuries that came after a fall. While there, he met a nurse, and they hit it off. So much so that she’s been around at his place quite a bit in recent days. Sometime last week, he and his flatmate walked in on this girl, lying on the floor, legs spread, with the flatmate’s dog, ah…pleasuring her, not to put too fine a point on it. I wouldn’t trust anything around that dog, myself, let alone my more tender bits (it seems likely to bite), but from the sound of it, she was having a very good time. Flatmate was quite disturbed at seeing his dog engaged in cunnilingus with our lady here, and when she refused to leave the house, he promptly rolled her up in a duvet and deposited her on the street. I don’t know these people very well, but I have been spending some time with them, and it seems that they attract the crazies. So my questions are: 1. What the fuck? No, seriously, what the fuck? This isn’t something people _do_, is it? 2. My first instinct says…not bestiality, just a kind of…animal powered masturbation device. (I can’t really believe I typed that). 3. I know actual sex would be damaging to the animal - confuse it, possibly make it dangerous. Could the same be said of this? 4. If the answer to (3) is “no”, is what she did: - Gauche, but morally neutral. - Wrong, she shouldn’t have used someone else’s pet that way. - Wrong, for some other reason. - Right, because, well, I suppose there has to be a “right” option somewhere. Here’s one: right, because it doesn’t harm the animal and she gets enjoyment from it, thereby being morally good from a utilitarian standpoint. I don’t know the answer to #3, so I don’t know quite how I should feel about it, myself. I’m not sure what my rationale for #2 is, more instinct than anything. What do Dopers think of all this? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2011, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dogs-sex-and-morality/595645/2 "2011-09-08T19:09:30Z")
> [@JohnnyMac](#): > > Flatmate was quite disturbed at seeing his dog engaged in cunnilingus with our lady here, and when she refused to leave the house, he promptly rolled her up in a duvet and deposited her on the street. I don’t care _what_ she did, that is no way to treat a dog. ---
**Author:** ![Anaamika](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Anaamika](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anaamika)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2011, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dogs-sex-and-morality/595645/3 "2011-09-08T19:10:08Z")
First of all I have a hard time believing this story. Are you sure your friend isn’t pulling your leg? To do it at someone else’s house, with someone else’s dog, and to not leave when asked, having to be thrown out, just boggles the mind. Secondly. Ick, and she shouldn’t have used someone else’s pet, but I can’t really see this particular thing being wrong. I mean, _my_ legs want to shut permanently at the thought, but the dog is not being hurt; he isn’t really even having sex, he’s just…licking. It’s like the old classic moral dilemna: If a man brings raw chicken home, masturbates with it, cooks it, and eats it all himself, has he done anything wrong? How you answer says how you feel about people doing things in their own house. In this case it involves someone else’s dog, but if she was doing it with her own dog, I’d just not want to know about it. Like, ever. I’ve always wondered how you’d have sex with a non-consenting animal, anyway. Wouldn’t most animals just scratch or claw you to pieces? Horses have a hell of a kick, as do cows. And…that’s about the end of my knowledge. Thankfully. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2011, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dogs-sex-and-morality/595645/4 "2011-09-08T19:16:12Z")
Geez, and I had trouble teaching the dog to fetch. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![jonesj2205](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ecc23a/32.png) [@jonesj2205](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jonesj2205)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2011, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dogs-sex-and-morality/595645/5 "2011-09-08T19:16:54Z")
As for the OP I think I saw this story in Penthouse Forum once 30 years ago. I’m in the pulling your leg camp. > [@Anaamika](#): > > It’s like the old classic moral dilemna: If a man brings raw chicken home, masturbates with it, cooks it, and eats it all himself, has he done anything wrong? How you answer says how you feel about people doing things in their own house. I’m pretty sure you and I had different classic moral dilemma textbooks - yours sounds more interesting. ---
**Author:** ![JohnnyMac](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e9c0ed/32.png) [@JohnnyMac](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnnyMac)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2011, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dogs-sex-and-morality/595645/6 "2011-09-08T19:19:37Z")
> [@Anaamika](#): > > First of all I have a hard time believing this story. Are you sure your friend isn’t pulling your leg? To do it at someone else’s house, with someone else’s dog, and to not leave when asked, having to be thrown out, just boggles the mind. Yeah, he could be pulling my leg…but then again, knowing these people, it could just as likely be the truth. If anyone was to pick up a crazy lady, it would be him. Their house is also the kind of place that might give the impression that she can do what she likes, that she won’t be interrupted, or that anything goes. It’s something of a party house. In short, I believe that if such a woman exists in the world, this friend is a likely candidate to pick her up, and his is the kind of place she might feel adventurous enough to do this in. So while I can’t say for sure that my story is true, if it ever happened anywhere, it’s quite possible it happened here. ---
**Author:** ![Anaamika](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Anaamika](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anaamika)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2011, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dogs-sex-and-morality/595645/7 "2011-09-08T19:23:01Z")
> [@jonesj2205](#): > > I’m pretty sure you and I had different classic moral dilemma textbooks - yours sounds more interesting. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![JohnnyMac](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e9c0ed/32.png) [@JohnnyMac](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnnyMac)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2011, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dogs-sex-and-morality/595645/8 "2011-09-08T19:23:47Z")
> [@Anaamika](#): > > It’s like the old classic moral dilemna: If a man brings raw chicken home, masturbates with it, cooks it, and eats it all himself, has he done anything wrong? How you answer says how you feel about people doing things in their own house. I have to agree with **jonesj2205** here, you certainly had more interesting textbooks than me! In your example there, I’d say that he’s done absolutely nothing wrong. There’s something about the dog being a living animal that’s throwing my judgement on this one. ---
**Author:** ![otternell](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ecc23a/32.png) [@otternell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/otternell)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2011, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dogs-sex-and-morality/595645/9 "2011-09-08T19:25:12Z")
What gender was the dog? Is this how homosexuality leads to bestiality with a female dog licking an adult female? Just to be clear: I don’t think homosexuality leads to bestiality, but that has been panicked about by froth-master Santorum. ---
**Author:** ![JohnnyMac](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e9c0ed/32.png) [@JohnnyMac](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnnyMac)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2011, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dogs-sex-and-morality/595645/10 "2011-09-08T19:29:22Z")
> [@otternell](#): > > What gender was the dog? Is this how homosexuality leads to bestiality with a female dog licking an adult female? > > Just to be clear: I don’t think homosexuality leads to bestiality, but that has been panicked about by froth-master Santorum. Oh, not to worry, it was a thoroughly Christian affair, one male and one female only! …at least, that’s what the name of the dog leads me to believe. 😛 (Is the homosexuality to bestiality link serious? Is this a US political thing?) ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2011, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dogs-sex-and-morality/595645/11 "2011-09-08T19:32:46Z")
> [@JohnnyMac](#): > > 1. What the fuck? No, seriously, what the fuck? This isn’t something people _do_, is it? You don’t want to know what people do. Really, you don’t. > [@](#): > > 1. My first instinct says…not bestiality, just a kind of…animal powered masturbation device. (I can’t really believe I typed that). Depends. What do you define as bestiality ? > [@](#): > > 1. I know actual sex would be damaging to the animal - confuse it, possibly make it dangerous. Could the same be said of this? Again, depends. Unless she was like forcing the dog’s head down or something like that, then the dog was probably just fine - possibly not even aware it was doing anything sexual. Was peanut butter or cheese involved ? 😛 Besides, I don’t even know that “actual sex” would be damaging to the animal either. Animals fuck. It’s what they do. Judging by umm… electronic miscellanea glimpsed over 10+ years on the 'net, they seem pretty into it. What danger do you think there would be to the beast, at least in a male beast on human female context ? Yes, I can see how fucking a chihuahua in the arse could be unrequited love. But this is not that, is it ? > [@](#): > > 1. If the answer to (3) is “no”, is what she did: > > - Gauche, but morally neutral. > - Wrong, she shouldn’t have used someone else’s pet that way. > - Wrong, for some other reason. > - Right, because, well, I suppose there has to be a “right” option somewhere. Here’s one: right, because it doesn’t harm the animal and she gets enjoyment from it, thereby being morally good from a utilitarian standpoint. First time reading your story, I thought it was only fucked up because she did that in you friend’s home (presumably without him knowing about it). But it wasn’t even _her_ dog ? Yeah, fucked up. Not really in a morality sense, just because… I don’t know, it’s just not done. That being said, don’t be looking down on that girl just because she’s down with doggy loving. We’ve all done worse. And if we haven’t, boy, we’re missing out. This comment is going to cost me a job someday, isn’t it ? ---
**Author:** ![Dahnlor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dahnlor/32/533_2.png) [@Dahnlor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dahnlor)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2011, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dogs-sex-and-morality/595645/12 "2011-09-08T19:43:36Z")
> [@Anaamika](#): > > First of all I have a hard time believing this story. Are you sure your friend isn’t pulling your leg? To do it at someone else’s house, with someone else’s dog, and to not leave when asked, having to be thrown out, just boggles the mind. Well, some elements taken together gives this a little bit of plausibility. Our dog-loving friend is a nurse, so she would surely have access to all sorts of powerful drugs. If she was stoned out of her mind on morphine when discovered with her canine companion, it would make sense to not want to move and need to be forcibly removed. I would imagine that rolling her up in the duvet would be a bit more challenging if she was coherent enough to fight back. Aside from that … ew. ---
**Author:** ![JohnnyMac](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e9c0ed/32.png) [@JohnnyMac](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnnyMac)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2011, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dogs-sex-and-morality/595645/13 "2011-09-08T19:44:07Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > Depends. What do you define as bestiality ? Sexual attraction to an animal. Well, I can see how it can be defined differently (and if it were actual sex, I’d define it as bestiality, attraction or no…but I don’t know why that is. Possibly that would be “operational bestiality” as opposed to “true bestiality”. Like how a guy having sex with another guy doesn’t make him gay (or bi)). > [@](#): > > Besides, I don’t even know that “actual sex” would be damaging to the animal either. Animals fuck. It’s what they do. Judging by umm… electronic miscellanea glimpsed over 10+ years on the 'net, they seem pretty into it. What danger do you think there would be to the beast, at least in a male beast on human female context ? Yes, I can see how fucking a chihuahua in the arse could be unrequited love. But this is not that, is it ? What I’ve always heard is that, for male dogs it confuses their sense of hierarchy, and makes them dangerous towards humans. > [@](#): > > First time reading your story, I thought it was only fucked up because she did that in you friend’s home (presumably without him knowing about it). But it wasn’t even _her_ dog ? Yeah, fucked up. Not really in a morality sense, just because… I don’t know, it’s just not done. Yeah, that just seems wrong, and I’m not entirely sure why. > [@](#): > > This comment is going to cost me a job someday, isn’t it ? Yeah, it probably is 😃 ---
**Author:** ![JohnnyMac](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e9c0ed/32.png) [@JohnnyMac](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnnyMac)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2011, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dogs-sex-and-morality/595645/14 "2011-09-08T19:45:22Z")
> [@Dahnlor](#): > > Well, some elements taken together gives this a little bit of plausibility. Our dog-loving friend is a nurse, so she would surely have access to all sorts of powerful drugs. If she was stoned out of her mind on morphine when discovered with her canine companion, it would make sense to not want to move and need to be forcibly removed. I would imagine that rolling her up in the duvet would be a bit more challenging if she was coherent enough to fight back. > > Aside from that … ew. Knowing these particular friends - well, let’s say that drugs are valid hypothesis here. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2011, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dogs-sex-and-morality/595645/15 "2011-09-08T19:57:08Z")
> [@JohnnyMac](#): > > Like how a guy having sex with another guy doesn’t make him gay (or bi)). See, this is why I don’t truck with morality. Too confusing. I also suspect morality’s fucking gay, dude. > [@](#): > > What I’ve always heard is that, for male dogs it confuses their sense of hierarchy, and makes them dangerous towards humans. Wait, you’ve actually heard about the psychological effects of bestiality on dogs ?! Rib-poking aside, that doesn’t sound like concern for the psyche of the dog - more like “if you do that your dog will get mean”, which is a wholly human concern isn’t it ? > [@](#): > > Yeah, that just seems wrong, and I’m not entirely sure why. Yeah, I’ve been tossing and turning it in my head for a while (maybe not the best turn of phrase right now…) and I can’t make any rational headway (again…) on this either. From an objective standpoint it shouldn’t even be an issue. But it still is, and it pisses me off. ---
**Author:** ![JohnnyMac](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e9c0ed/32.png) [@JohnnyMac](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnnyMac)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2011, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dogs-sex-and-morality/595645/16 "2011-09-08T20:12:26Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > See, this is why I don’t truck with morality. Too confusing. I also suspect morality’s fucking gay, dude. TBH, as a bi guy myself, I wish straight guys would stop pretending to be bi. But that’s rather offtopic for this particular thread. > [@](#): > > Wait, you’ve actually heard about the psychological effects of bestiality on dogs ?! > Rib-poking aside, that doesn’t sound like concern for the psyche of the dog - more like “if you do that your dog will get mean”, which is a wholly human concern isn’t it ? Yeah, and I’m pretty sure it was here on the 'dope I first heard about them. As for the psyche of the dog - the explanations went along the lines of “dogs are happier when they’re sure of their place”. I can see how that would go, too - you let a dog have sex with a human, they start seeing themselves as higher in the pack, and if you’re unable to teach them their place (which, I don’t know - once your dog starts seeing you as someone potentially toppled for top position, can you really eliminate that?)…well, it’s not going to be a pleasant ride for either of you. If you keep confusing the dog by letting it have the “dominant position” in sex, you’re only going to make things more difficult. I think the argument is that you’re putting the dog in a constant state of uncertainty, which translates into a constant state of anxiety, emotionally speaking. > [@](#): > > Yeah, I’ve been tossing and turning it in my head for a while (maybe not the best turn of phrase right now…) and I can’t make any rational headway (again…) on this either. From an objective standpoint it shouldn’t even be an issue. But it still is, and it pisses me off. Maybe it’s a cross between “don’t fuck with my property” and “get your hands off my daughter”? Something like protectiveness of property and protectiveness of a creature that owes its life to us. That doesn’t really answer the moral question about it, though. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2011, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dogs-sex-and-morality/595645/17 "2011-09-08T20:45:21Z")
> [@JohnnyMac](#): > > Maybe it’s a cross between “don’t fuck with my property” and “get your hands off my daughter”? Something like protectiveness of property and protectiveness of a creature that owes its life to us. That doesn’t really answer the moral question about it, though. Talked about this with my GF for a bit, and we came to the conclusion that it had a lot to do with “don’t fuck with someone else’s property” (both figuratively and literally in this case) - but then it’s weird that it mingles with a sense for the well being of the dog, isn’t it ? Either dogs are property to be disposed of as the owner pleases ; or they’re living breathing feeling creatures the feelings of which must be considered. In which case considering them in terms of property is problematic in and of itself. And neither of the two options wholly satisfies me. No wonder my dog is nuts. As for the moral aspect, _shrug_. I really don’t see the act itself as a big deal (except, as previously mentioned, in cases where tab A clearly isn’t meant to go in slot B). The emotional duress you mention doesn’t seem like such a huge deal to me - dog psyche is probably also confused by having to eat in a designated bowl, or being called by a name, or being asked to assume unusual positions on command, or having to grab the leash to go for walkies. For that matter, most dogs ride in wolfpacks of one, aren’t allowed to kill the sheep when they’re hungry or to fuck in the park in front of the chil’un, all sorts of things that must weird them out to no end. They’ve come a long ways from the days they were wolves. We’ve always molded dog behaviour to our convenience - I don’t see that teaching them to eat clam or pound the Master’s butt is any different, always with the caveat that if the dog is actually physically harmed or forced to perform reluctantly then it’s a no go. Even less so in the context of this particular anecdote, since I don’t think licking clam is a markedly dominant (or submissive) behaviour, is it ? So, in summary: the act itself does not seem immoral, but the context is conflicting. Way too much hassle, you ask me. Fucking people seems simpler (Spoiler: no it isn’t). ---
**Author:** ![otternell](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ecc23a/32.png) [@otternell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/otternell)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2011, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dogs-sex-and-morality/595645/18 "2011-09-08T21:30:53Z")
Bit of a hijack . . . > [@JohnnyMac](#): > > (Is the homosexuality to bestiality link serious? Is this a US political thing?) For [some people](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Santorum_controversy_regarding_homosexuality) it’s serious - and yes, definitely a US political hang up. Sorry about the hijack, carry on with this fascinating thread! 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2011, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dogs-sex-and-morality/595645/19 "2011-09-08T21:48:38Z")
This is somewhat reminiscent of a thread about woman who masturbate while breastfeeding their infant in that the woman gets sexual pleasure while the other is ‘clueless’ to the sexual aspect. It sounds weird, but we all have weird things, some more then others. Sex is also a strong drive in many. Just accept her as just another person with good points and bad points. ---
**Author:** ![panache45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/panache45/32/64_2.png) [@panache45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panache45)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2011, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dogs-sex-and-morality/595645/20 "2011-09-08T21:54:49Z")
> [@JohnnyMac](#): > > 1. I know actual sex would be damaging to the animal - confuse it, possibly make it dangerous. What they were doing \*\*\*was \*\*\*actual sex. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dogs-sex-and-morality/595645.md?page=2)