# DOJ dropping case against Michael Flynn **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [May 7, 2020, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doj-dropping-case-against-michael-flynn/853349 "2020-05-07T18:55:27Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2020, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doj-dropping-case-against-michael-flynn/853349/41 "2020-05-09T17:55:05Z")
> [@Xema](#): > > 38 posts in this thread with very little mention of the things - many of which became public only last week - that led to the action cited in the OP. > > Here’s a relevant article: [Dirty Dozen: The 12 revelations that sunk Mueller’s case against Flynn](https://justthenews.com/accountability/russia-and-ukraine-scandals/dirty-dozen-12-revelations-sunk-muellers-case-against). > > Among the most significant of these points: > That on Jan 4 2017 an FBI memo stated that no derogatory info had been found on Flynn, and the case should be dropped. > > That the “302” memo of the Jan 24 interview with Flynn was filed long after the required 5 working days, and the version filed was not the original, but one that had been edited by Strzok and Lisa Page (not present, and not an FBI agent). > > And the big one: That though all this information was required to be disclosed to Flynn and his lawyers early in the game, much of it was illegally withheld. From Trumper and non-journalist John Solomon’s website? What a joke. ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2020, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doj-dropping-case-against-michael-flynn/853349/42 "2020-05-09T17:58:22Z")
> [@Xema](#): > > The FBI claimed it was a crime while withholding information that would have allowed him and his lawyers to understand that this was incorrect. His lawyers should know what is and is not a crime. Flynn entered pleas with the advice of his attorneys - again, they should know what is and is not a crime. The crime was providing information that is false and material to a legitimately authorized criminal investigation. What Barr is trying to do, really, is to claim that the entire investigation - one that the government spent presumably millions of dollars on - was a farce. ---
**Author:** ![Xema](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/9de053/32.png) [@Xema](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Xema)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2020, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doj-dropping-case-against-michael-flynn/853349/43 "2020-05-09T18:54:18Z")
> [@asahi](#): > > His lawyers should know what is and is not a crime. Flynn entered pleas with the advice of his attorneys Which advice is likely to be better when information the FBI was legally required to disclose is not withheld. > [@](#): > > The crime was providing information that is false and material to a legitimately authorized criminal investigation. The withheld information bears directly on the question of whether Flynn’s statements were material. > [@](#): > > What Barr is trying to do, really, is to claim that the entire investigation - one that the government spent presumably millions of dollars on - was a farce. The validity of an investigation has much to do with whether it was conducted legally & honestly, and very little to do with how much money was spent. ---
**Author:** ![Xema](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/9de053/32.png) [@Xema](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Xema)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2020, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doj-dropping-case-against-michael-flynn/853349/44 "2020-05-09T19:05:53Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > From Trumper and non-journalist John Solomon’s website? What a joke. Instead of addressing inconvenient evidence, you go _ad hominem_ - convenient, perhaps, but notably weak. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2020, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doj-dropping-case-against-michael-flynn/853349/45 "2020-05-09T19:17:05Z")
> [@Xema](#): > > Instead of addressing inconvenient evidence, you go _ad hominem_ - convenient, perhaps, but notably weak. It’s been addressed – see the link in post #29. See the actual lawyers who aren’t bound by sycophancy to Trump demonstrate Barr’s dishonesty. Solomon’s not a lawyer (and neither am I – which is why I trust the real lawyers who don’t lick Trump’s boots). ---
**Author:** ![Lance\_Turbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lance_turbo/32/6156_2.png) [@Lance\_Turbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lance_Turbo)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2020, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doj-dropping-case-against-michael-flynn/853349/46 "2020-05-09T20:20:09Z")
> [@Xema](#): > > That on Jan 4 2017 an FBI memo stated that no derogatory info had been found on Flynn, and the case should be dropped. This one keeps coming up, but it is obvious bullshit if you look at the timeline of events. On January 15, Mike Pence (VP-elect at the time) appeared on Face the Nation and said that Flynn did not discuss Russian sanctions with Kislyak. The Crossfire Hurricane team knew this wasn’t true. If Flynn was lying to the incoming administration, these lies in and of themselves could compromise him. So while the FBI didn’t have derogatory info on Flynn on Jan 4, they sure did have derogatory info on Flynn when they interviewed him on Jan 24. Bill Barr and many right wing journos are pretending that this is not the case, but it does not hold up to even a cursory examination. ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2020, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doj-dropping-case-against-michael-flynn/853349/47 "2020-05-09T21:01:07Z")
> [@Xema](#): > > Which advice is likely to be better when information the FBI was legally required to disclose is not withheld. > > The withheld information bears directly on the question of whether Flynn’s statements were material. > > The validity of an investigation has much to do with whether it was conducted legally & honestly, and very little to do with how much money was spent. Okay, so you acknowledge, then, that he lied to federal investigators, and you acknowledge further that he pleaded guilty not once but twice – to a crime. No amount of “withheld” information changes that fact. What your entire argument rests upon is whether the initial reasons for opening the investigation were legal and legitimate to begin with. Like I said either on this thread or another, time to reverse Barry Bonds’ conviction. And it’s probably time to reverse convictions of many others who weren’t quite taken down on corruption charges but the nevertheless quite valid convictions of providing materially false information to federal law enforcement. ---
**Author:** ![Lance\_Turbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lance_turbo/32/6156_2.png) [@Lance\_Turbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lance_Turbo)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2020, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doj-dropping-case-against-michael-flynn/853349/48 "2020-05-09T21:16:23Z")
I already linked to it once, but here’s [Judge Sullivan’s 92 page opinion from 12/16/2019](https://drive.google.com/file/d/1zOHaoyTTz2gUGcJ1eFY1YTC9aSynAveR/view). The judge already ruled that it was a valid counter-intelligence investigation. The judge already ruled that the FBI did not illegally withhold information. The judge already ruled that Flynn’s lies were material. A lot of people (including Bill Barr) are pretending that recently revealed information wipes this away, but it does not. Don’t fall for it. ---
**Author:** ![Kimera757](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kimera757/32/3765_2.png) [@Kimera757](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimera757)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2020, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doj-dropping-case-against-michael-flynn/853349/49 "2020-05-09T22:06:10Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > [DOJ Is Dropping Case Against Flynn - TPM – Talking Points Memo](https://talkingpointsmemo.com/news/flynn-brandon-van-grack-qithdrawal) > > Michael Flynn lied to the FBI, and then plead guilty to it, before withdrawing his plea. > > And the DOJ is dropping the case, because apparently lying to the FBI is okay (even admitting to it!) if you’re a pal of Trump. > > Seems crazy to me. I figured one of the paramount rules of enforcing the law was punishing those who lie to law enforcement. Apparently this DOJ disagrees. Mr. Barr apparently believes in [this trope](https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/CutHimselfShaving). > [@](#): > > makes it clear that no one buys it, or at least has serious doubts that the “shaving” victim is telling the truth. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2020, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doj-dropping-case-against-michael-flynn/853349/50 "2020-05-09T22:12:21Z")
Factual question: did the initial investigation of Flynn involve a counterintelligence issue? ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2020, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doj-dropping-case-against-michael-flynn/853349/51 "2020-05-09T22:16:19Z")
> [@Lance\_Turbo](#): > > This one keeps coming up, but it is obvious bullshit if you look at the timeline of events. > > On January 15, Mike Pence (VP-elect at the time) appeared on Face the Nation and said that Flynn did not discuss Russian sanctions with Kislyak. The Crossfire Hurricane team knew this wasn’t true. If Flynn was lying to the incoming administration, these lies in and of themselves could compromise him. > > So while the FBI didn’t have derogatory info on Flynn on Jan 4, they sure did have derogatory info on Flynn when they interviewed him on Jan 24. Bill Barr and many right wing journos are pretending that this is not the case, but it does not hold up to even a cursory examination. > [@Lance\_Turbo](#): > > I already linked to it once, but here’s [Judge Sullivan’s 92 page opinion from 12/16/2019](https://drive.google.com/file/d/1zOHaoyTTz2gUGcJ1eFY1YTC9aSynAveR/view). > > The judge already ruled that it was a valid counter-intelligence investigation. > > The judge already ruled that the FBI did not illegally withhold information. > > The judge already ruled that Flynn’s lies were material. > > A lot of people (including Bill Barr) are pretending that recently revealed information wipes this away, but it does not. > > Don’t fall for it. 1. Either Pence lied to the public or Flynn lied to Pence. And the FBI had wiretapped Flynn’s phone calls with Kislyak. They knew exactly what was said. There was no need for further investigation. The notes from the FBI agents Strzok et al show that they used a lapse in the closure of the file to try to get Flynn into a perjury trap. The same agent who said that he would do anything to stop Trump’s election the summer prior. That is not a legitimate use of law enforcement resources, nor was it disclosed to Flynn prior to his guilty plea. 2. The judge did rule that as a matter _of law_ it was material and he would not keep it from jury _consideration_. However, he did so prior to the disclosure of the FBI notes. Further, the judge doesn’t have the final word on the matter as it is a jury determination at the end of the day if it goes to trial. And to asahi, please read my posts above. Many, many, many, and many people plead guilty because the system favors the government/state. A guilty plea does not mean you are guilty. That is a fiction to allow the plea bargain machine to keep running. They threatened to prosecute his son if he didn’t take the plea. I would protect my kids the same way. I’ll plead to what you want to protect my kids, especially once you’ve made me sell my house and bleed through all my money to pay for lawyers. Again, I’m not with Hannity et al saying that this is the worst miscarriage of justice ever. It is sadly very common and if he was not an ally of Trump, he would not have gotten this consideration. I freely admit that. But this is how prosecutors _should_ behave. ---
**Author:** ![Lance\_Turbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lance_turbo/32/6156_2.png) [@Lance\_Turbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lance_Turbo)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2020, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doj-dropping-case-against-michael-flynn/853349/52 "2020-05-09T22:19:18Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > Factual question: did the initial investigation of Flynn involve a counterintelligence issue? It was part of Crossfire Hurricane which was a counterintelligence investigation. ---
**Author:** ![Lance\_Turbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lance_turbo/32/6156_2.png) [@Lance\_Turbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lance_Turbo)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2020, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doj-dropping-case-against-michael-flynn/853349/53 "2020-05-09T22:29:13Z")
You start off well and then you show you have fallen for a lot of bullshit… > [@UltraVires](#): > > Either Pence lied to the public or Flynn lied to Pence. True > [@UltraVires](#): > > And the FBI had wiretapped Flynn’s phone calls with Kislyak. True > [@UltraVires](#): > > They knew exactly what was said. True > [@UltraVires](#): > > There was no need for further investigation. False > [@UltraVires](#): > > The notes from the FBI agents Strzok et al show that they used a lapse in the closure of the file to try to get Flynn into a perjury trap. False > [@UltraVires](#): > > The same agent who said that he would do anything to stop Trump’s election the summer prior. False > [@UltraVires](#): > > That is not a legitimate use of law enforcement resources, nor was it disclosed to Flynn prior to his guilty plea. False ---
**Author:** ![RioRico](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f04885/32.png) [@RioRico](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RioRico)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2020, 8:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doj-dropping-case-against-michael-flynn/853349/54 "2020-05-10T08:19:55Z")
> [@UltraVires](#): > > The notes from the FBI agents Strzok et al show that they used a lapse in the closure of the file to try to get Flynn into a perjury trap. Gen. Flynn could easily avoid a perjury trap; he merely needed to not lie to the FBI. “I have nothing to say” is a proper response when we wish to avoid perjury, right? BTW agent Strzok tweeted unkindly about many political players IIRC\* and a _comprehensive review in February 2018 of Strzok’s messages by The Wall Street Journal concluded that “texts critical of Mr. Trump represent a fraction of the roughly 7,000 messages, which stretch across 384 pages and show no evidence of a conspiracy against Mr. Trump”._[(cite)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Strzok) Did commies at the WSJ give Strzok a pass? Or is the Strzok-hates-Trump meme just the usual bullshit? - PS - Okay, [a cite](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Strzok#Text_messages): > [@](#): > > Some of the texts disparaged then-presidential candidate Donald Trump, Chelsea Clinton, Attorney General in the Obama administration Eric Holder, former Democratic Governor Martin O’Malley, and candidate for the Democratic presidential nomination Bernie Sanders… Strzok and Page also advocated creating a Special Counsel to investigate the Hillary Clinton email controversy, ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2020, 12:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doj-dropping-case-against-michael-flynn/853349/55 "2020-05-10T12:33:56Z")
> [@Lance\_Turbo](#): > > It was part of Crossfire Hurricane which was a counterintelligence investigation. And so how does Flynn’s lawyers argue that counterintelligence investigations are not matters of import? I can kind of understand the logic of saying that an investigation for a defunct law, the Logan Act, might not be material if it is so unlikely that anyone would ever be charged with that crime. But if someone is questioned as part of a counterintelligence investigation, seems like concluding that people are free to lie about such matters is something that will backfire very quickly. ---
**Author:** ![eenerms](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/cdc98d/32.png) [@eenerms](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eenerms)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2020, 12:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doj-dropping-case-against-michael-flynn/853349/56 "2020-05-10T12:56:11Z")
Good! ---
**Author:** ![Lance\_Turbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lance_turbo/32/6156_2.png) [@Lance\_Turbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lance_Turbo)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2020, 1:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doj-dropping-case-against-michael-flynn/853349/57 "2020-05-10T13:41:58Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > And so how does Flynn’s lawyers argue that counterintelligence investigations are not matters of import? Poorly. The judge in the case rejected these arguments. For some reason Bill Barr, right wing media, and posters in this thread are now accepting these arguments in spite of the judge’s ruling. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2020, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doj-dropping-case-against-michael-flynn/853349/58 "2020-05-10T14:58:11Z")
> [@Xema](#): > > The FBI claimed it was a crime while withholding information that would have allowed him and his lawyers to understand that this was incorrect. How does that even work? ---
**Author:** ![Xema](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/9de053/32.png) [@Xema](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Xema)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2020, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doj-dropping-case-against-michael-flynn/853349/59 "2020-05-10T15:38:25Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > How does that even work? On Jan 4 2017 the FBI had declared that their investigation of Flynn was complete, and had found no derogatory information (IOW, they’d concluded he had no connection to any Russian collusion or other illegal activity - he was clean). This admits a strong legal argument that at the Jan 24 interview, Flynn’s answers were not “material” (which they must be for him to be guilty as charged). But this fact was disclosed to Flynn’s lawyers only very recently - long, long after it was required to have been. This is very clearly “prosecutorial malfeasance”. It’s actually much worse than this overview implies. A smiling Comey is on record explaining how the FBI cleverly bypassed the normal procedures for setting up an interview with the National Security Advisor. The FBI notes from that meeting were submitted very late and heavily edited. Etc. ---
**Author:** ![Fiveyearlurker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/da6949/32.png) [@Fiveyearlurker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiveyearlurker)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2020, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doj-dropping-case-against-michael-flynn/853349/60 "2020-05-10T17:13:15Z")
Anyone else think we are heading toward show trials of Obama administration officials in the next few months? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doj-dropping-case-against-michael-flynn/853349.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doj-dropping-case-against-michael-flynn/853349.md?page=4)