# DOJ dropping case against Michael Flynn **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [May 7, 2020, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doj-dropping-case-against-michael-flynn/853349 "2020-05-07T18:55:27Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![MikeF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@MikeF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MikeF)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2020, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doj-dropping-case-against-michael-flynn/853349/81 "2020-05-12T16:04:59Z")
I’m late to the game here but could someone explain to me what a “perjury trap” is? Is that where you question someone under oath and they choose to lie? Is it key to such a trap that the person being questioned believes that there’s no way you could already know the truth? I understand perjury, its the trap part I need explained. BTW, I made a career as a criminal investigator and, while we always sought the truth in an interrogation, if a subject wanted to bury himself with lies, that was O.K. too. It was more ammo for down the road. That piece of road could be twenty minutes later or at trial where his value as a defense witness would be limited due to credibility issues. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2020, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doj-dropping-case-against-michael-flynn/853349/82 "2020-05-12T16:14:23Z")
> [@MikeF](#): > > BTW, I made a career as a criminal investigator and, while we always sought the truth in an interrogation, if a subject wanted to bury himself with lies, that was O.K. too. How DARE you! ---
**Author:** ![Lance\_Turbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lance_turbo/32/6156_2.png) [@Lance\_Turbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lance_Turbo)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2020, 12:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doj-dropping-case-against-michael-flynn/853349/83 "2020-05-13T00:03:53Z")
> [@MikeF](#): > > BTW, I made a career as a criminal investigator and, while we always sought the truth in an interrogation, if a subject wanted to bury himself with lies, that was O.K. too. Hey, maybe you can answer something. Can you imagine a circumstance in the course of a lengthy investigation where you didn’t want to interview someone one day, and then did want to interview that same person three weeks later? I’m only asking because certain people seem to be advancing a nonsensical view that once one person on the investigation team advances an opinion that they don’t see a reason to interview someone, that that person is forever immune from being interviewed, especially three weeks later. Or something. I’m not 100% sure because it is a nonsense argument. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2020, 12:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doj-dropping-case-against-michael-flynn/853349/84 "2020-05-13T00:06:31Z")
The TV says that Judge Sullivan isn’t rolling over just yet - giving time for amicus briefs, whatever that means. I suppose that’s a hopeful sign for fans of the rule of law. ---
**Author:** ![Sherrerd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sherrerd/32/8_2.png) [@Sherrerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sherrerd)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2020, 12:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doj-dropping-case-against-michael-flynn/853349/85 "2020-05-13T00:20:21Z")
> [@MikeF](#): > > I’m late to the game here but could someone explain to me what a “perjury trap” is? Is that where you question someone under oath and they choose to lie? Is it key to such a trap that the person being questioned believes that there’s no way you could already know the truth? I understand perjury, its the trap part I need explained. > > BTW, I made a career as a criminal investigator and, while we always sought the truth in an interrogation, if a subject wanted to bury himself with lies, that was O.K. too. It was more ammo for down the road. That piece of road could be twenty minutes later or at trial where his value as a defense witness would be limited due to credibility issues. The “perjury trap” theory on why Flynn should (according to the right) get a pass HAS been questioned in this thread: > [@Sherrerd](#): > > People on the right are very fond of this defense of Flynn, judging by its ubiquity. But how does that work in the case of the particular lies Flynn was found to have uttered? How was he “trapped” into saying those things? > > Here’s a reminder about Flynn’s lies: > > (my emphasis) [The Mueller report's account of Michael Flynn's lies | AP News](https://apnews.com/d47a5be3e46442d0a1243c7dc52278f3) > > Again, how was Flynn “trapped” into making those statements? You’ll be shocked to learn that neither the Flynn-defender I was addressing, nor any other defending Flynn, have (to date) attempted to answer those questions. (The AP article excerpts referred to are available at the original post.) ---
**Author:** ![Fiveyearlurker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/da6949/32.png) [@Fiveyearlurker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiveyearlurker)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2020, 12:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doj-dropping-case-against-michael-flynn/853349/86 "2020-05-13T00:27:14Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > The TV says that Judge Sullivan isn’t rolling over just yet - giving time for amicus briefs, whatever that means. I suppose that’s a hopeful sign for fans of the rule of law. Apparently it means that the judge is welcoming other groups to argue the position that the guy who pleaded guilty to something he was caught red handed doing is guilty because the US department of Justice no longer wants to make that argument. Considering 2000 former DOJ employees signed a document expressing their displeasure, I reckon there will be some takers. ---
**Author:** ![Aspenglow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aspenglow/32/76_2.png) [@Aspenglow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aspenglow)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2020, 12:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doj-dropping-case-against-michael-flynn/853349/87 "2020-05-13T00:38:13Z")
> [@MikeF](#): > > I’m late to the game here but **could someone explain to me what a “perjury trap” is?** Is that where you question someone under oath and they choose to lie? Is it key to such a trap that the person being questioned believes that there’s no way you could already know the truth? I understand perjury, its the trap part I need explained. > > BTW, I made a career as a criminal investigator and, while we always sought the truth in an interrogation, if a subject wanted to bury himself with lies, that was O.K. too. It was more ammo for down the road. That piece of road could be twenty minutes later or at trial where his value as a defense witness would be limited due to credibility issues. I’ll take a shot. (IANAL.) A perjury trap is kind of a unicorn. In real law, it doesn’t much exist. It’s a situation that’s a complete dick move. A prosecutor brings up something he/she knows a reluctant witness may lie about in an effort to coerce testimony from that witness, isn’t material to the case at bar, and is employed solely for the purpose of being able to bring a charge of perjury against the witness. The perjury charge is leverage against the witness. Maybe the witness suffered an embarrassing arrest in his past, say something like statutory rape. Let’s say the matter was worked out as a diversion and the charges were dismissed as though they had never been brought. The episode has nothing to do with the case for which the witness is intended to testify. But the prosecutor, seeking an indictment in the new case, asks the witness in front of the grand jury, “Have you ever been arrested for the crime of rape?” The witness, caught off guard and having had the charges diverted/dismissed, says, “No!” Technically not true. He _was_ arrested for the crime of rape. That’s a perjury trap. As you have wisely discerned, the way to avoid a “perjury trap” is to simply… not lie. Prosecutors who employ such tactics may become vulnerable to charges of prosecutorial misconduct. ---
**Author:** ![Aspenglow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aspenglow/32/76_2.png) [@Aspenglow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aspenglow)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2020, 12:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doj-dropping-case-against-michael-flynn/853349/88 "2020-05-13T00:40:27Z")
> [@Fiveyearlurker](#): > > Apparently it means that the judge is welcoming other groups to argue the position that the guy who pleaded guilty to something he was caught red handed doing is guilty because the US department of Justice no longer wants to make that argument. Considering 2000 former DOJ employees signed a document expressing their displeasure, I reckon there will be some takers. Very excellent move by Judge Sullivan. You reckon correct, I b’lieve. ---
**Author:** ![Frodo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/frodo/32/302_2.png) [@Frodo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frodo)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2020, 11:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doj-dropping-case-against-michael-flynn/853349/89 "2020-05-13T23:20:20Z")
BOOM: > ---
**Author:** ![Fiveyearlurker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/da6949/32.png) [@Fiveyearlurker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiveyearlurker)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2020, 11:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doj-dropping-case-against-michael-flynn/853349/90 "2020-05-13T23:50:32Z")
> [@Frodo](#): > > BOOM: > [https://twitter.com/kyledcheney/status/1260701547891240967](https://twitter.com/kyledcheney/status/1260701547891240967) Also hearing arguments for [criminal contempt](https://www.politico.com/news/2020/05/13/judge-appoints-retired-judge-to-represent-flynn-prosecution-256509) for declaring under oath that he was guilty since he now claims that he wasn’t. ---
**Author:** ![Aspenglow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aspenglow/32/76_2.png) [@Aspenglow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aspenglow)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2020, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doj-dropping-case-against-michael-flynn/853349/91 "2020-05-13T23:53:18Z")
> [@Frodo](#): > > BOOM: > [https://twitter.com/kyledcheney/status/1260701547891240967](https://twitter.com/kyledcheney/status/1260701547891240967) Wow. Good for Sullivan. That took some guts. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2020, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doj-dropping-case-against-michael-flynn/853349/92 "2020-05-14T00:07:23Z")
Awesome! ---
**Author:** ![jshore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/b5e925/32.png) [@jshore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jshore)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2020, 1:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doj-dropping-case-against-michael-flynn/853349/93 "2020-05-14T01:03:50Z")
[Check it out](https://www.nytimes.com/2020/05/13/us/politics/michael-flynn-john-gleeson-judge.html): > [@](#): > > The federal judge overseeing the criminal case of President Trump’s former national security adviser Michael T. Flynn appointed a hard-charging former prosecutor and judge on Wednesday to argue against the Justice Department in its effort to drop the case … > > As a prosecutor in Brooklyn, Judge Gleeson rose to legal stardom when he successfully prosecuted the notorious mobster John Gotti. He got Gotti and now he’s going after Barr … I need some popcorn! 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2020, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doj-dropping-case-against-michael-flynn/853349/94 "2020-05-14T15:34:51Z")
1. Flynn “made a series of materially false statements” to the FBI during a properly authorized investigation. 2. "FLYNN’s false statements and omissions impeded and otherwise had a material impact on the FBI’s ongoing investigation into the existence of any links or coordination between individuals associated with the [Trump] Campaign and Russia’s efforts to interfere with the 2016 presidential election” 3. Flynn PLED GUILTY to this crime. All the garbage about the investigation being somehow tainted or the “perjury trap” bullshit is just a desperate attempt to cover for this administration. Nothing changed from when he pled guilty to now, except Barr is now emboldened by the Republican party to ignore crimes and to cover up for this administration. It’s a travesty of justice. And it (and the responses from the Republican’s lackeys here) is entirely predictable. ---
**Author:** ![Lance\_Turbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lance_turbo/32/6156_2.png) [@Lance\_Turbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lance_Turbo)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2020, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doj-dropping-case-against-michael-flynn/853349/95 "2020-05-14T20:58:41Z")
Don’t just take our word for it, listen to someone you trust. “I had to fire General Flynn because he lied to the Vice President and the FBI. He has pled guilty to those lies.” - Donald J. Trump ---
**Author:** ![jasg](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f0a364/32.png) [@jasg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jasg)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2020, 4:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doj-dropping-case-against-michael-flynn/853349/96 "2020-05-15T04:02:09Z")
> [@jshore](#): > > [Check it out](https://www.nytimes.com/2020/05/13/us/politics/michael-flynn-john-gleeson-judge.html): > > He got Gotti and now he’s going after Barr … I need some popcorn! 😉 and the head of DOJ Criminal Division who oversaw prosecution on that case… none other than Bobby “Three Sticks” Mueller. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2020, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doj-dropping-case-against-michael-flynn/853349/97 "2020-05-18T16:30:12Z")
YouTube channel LegalEagle has posted a very good and thorough run-down of what is happening with the Flynn case: [![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/cid38A_9e04/maxresdefault.jpg "DOJ Dismisses Flynn? Not So Fast. (LegalEagle’s Law Review)") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cid38A_9e04) ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2020, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doj-dropping-case-against-michael-flynn/853349/98 "2020-05-18T16:32:55Z")
> [@Hamlet](#): > > 1. Flynn PLED GUILTY to this crime. He did that twice. ---
**Author:** ![MikeF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@MikeF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MikeF)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2020, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doj-dropping-case-against-michael-flynn/853349/99 "2020-05-20T15:09:42Z")
> [@Lance\_Turbo](#): > > Hey, maybe you can answer something. Can you imagine a circumstance in the course of a lengthy investigation where you didn’t want to interview someone one day, and then did want to interview that same person three weeks later? > > I’m only asking because certain people seem to be advancing a nonsensical view that once one person on the investigation team advances an opinion that they don’t see a reason to interview someone, that that person is forever immune from being interviewed, especially three weeks later. Or something. I’m not 100% sure because it is a nonsense argument. Late to the thread again. I assume this is a rhetorical question but, of course. Its practically the rule and not an exception. Judge Sullivan took a ballsy step. This could well end up in the USSC and, with decisions coming along party lines, we all know how it will end. Will the day ever come where the USSC says “No” to Trump? ---
**Author:** ![Happy\_Fun\_Ball](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/happy_fun_ball/32/17664_2.png) [@Happy\_Fun\_Ball](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Happy_Fun_Ball)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2020, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doj-dropping-case-against-michael-flynn/853349/100 "2020-06-10T21:09:03Z")
Ha. Here is the brief filed by John Gleeson: [Amicus Brief](https://drive.google.com/file/d/1adfxfR4eo2WE7OYteuryPwdeJdJLu_Y3/view) Among the tastier bits: > [@](#): > > The Government claims there is insufficient evidence to prove materiality and falsity, but even giving it the benefit of every doubt—and recognizing its prerogative to assess the strength of its own case—this contention “taxes the credulity of the credulous.” Maryland v. King, 569 U.S. 435, 466 (2013) (Scalia, J., dissenting). The Government’s ostensible grounds for seeking dismissal are conclusively disproven by its own briefs filed earlier in this very proceeding. They contradict and ignore this Court’s prior orders, which constitute law of the case. They are riddled with inexplicable and elementary errors of law and fact. > [@](#): > > Second, the Court should deny leave because there is clear evidence of a gross abuse of prosecutorial power. Rule 48(a) was designed to “guard against dubious dismissals of criminal cases that would benefit powerful and well-connected defendants.”3 In other words, the rule empowers courts to protect the integrity of their own proceedings from prosecutors who undertake corrupt, politically motivated dismissals. See id.; see also Ammidown, 497 F.2d at 620-622. That is what has happened here. The Government has engaged in highly irregular conduct to benefit a political ally of the President. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doj-dropping-case-against-michael-flynn/853349.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doj-dropping-case-against-michael-flynn/853349.md?page=6)