# DOJ may indict Zimmerman on civil-rights charges **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 14, 2013, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doj-may-indict-zimmerman-on-civil-rights-charges/663509 "2013-07-14T22:06:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2013, 3:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doj-may-indict-zimmerman-on-civil-rights-charges/663509/101 "2013-07-16T03:30:36Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Of course not. Obama doesn’t want to be saddled with a failure. He doesn’t seem to mind being saddled with the Justice Dept’s complete failure to prosecute any higher-ups in the 2007 bank collapse. ---
**Author:** ![Bruce\_Wayne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/22d042/32.png) [@Bruce\_Wayne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bruce_Wayne)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2013, 3:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doj-may-indict-zimmerman-on-civil-rights-charges/663509/102 "2013-07-16T03:57:37Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > I think he means Al Sharpton. George Zimmerman is an unprofessional racist. Is there any evidence George Zimmerman is a racist? This seems to be an underlying assumption and its not that clear to me. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2013, 5:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doj-may-indict-zimmerman-on-civil-rights-charges/663509/103 "2013-07-16T05:01:05Z")
> [@deltasigma](#): > > I have a response for this but I’d get a mod warning for excessive snark. Actually, based on the direction you appear to be moving, the Warning would be for trolling. Posting lots of chest-thumping in support of a position and then declaring that one was not really looking to defend that position looks like trolling from here. You are welcome to defend your position (with actual citations to facts) and you are welcome to withdraw from the thread. You are not welcome to simply post “Uh, huh.” repeatedly while refusing to actually defend your position. [/Moderating] ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2013, 5:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doj-may-indict-zimmerman-on-civil-rights-charges/663509/104 "2013-07-16T05:03:49Z")
> [@Evil\_Captor](#): > > He doesn’t seem to mind being saddled with the Justice Dept’s complete failure to prosecute any higher-ups in the 2007 bank collapse. Well, by that reasoning he won’t mind being saddled with the failure to prosecute GZ. Of course, that’s a completely different kind of “failure”, since I was talking about acting, and failing, and you’re talking about failing to act. But otherwise, it’s exactly the same. ---
**Author:** ![deltasigma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e5b9ba/32.png) [@deltasigma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/deltasigma)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2013, 5:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doj-may-indict-zimmerman-on-civil-rights-charges/663509/105 "2013-07-16T05:22:39Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > Actually, based on the direction you appear to be moving, the Warning would be for trolling. Posting lots of chest-thumping in support of a position and then declaring that one was not really looking to defend that position looks like trolling from here. > > You are welcome to defend your position (with actual citations to facts) and you are welcome to withdraw from the thread. You are not welcome to simply post “Uh, huh.” repeatedly while refusing to actually defend your position. > > [/Moderating] I’m fairly certain that I did not have an actual position but only stated that the NAACP seemed to think that they did and compared to the other legal expertise expressed in the thread, I considered their expertise superior. If that was misconstrued as an expression of support for that position, I apologize. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2013, 5:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doj-may-indict-zimmerman-on-civil-rights-charges/663509/106 "2013-07-16T05:50:26Z")
> [@Bruce\_Wayne](#): > > Is there any evidence George Zimmerman is a racist? This seems to be an underlying assumption and its not that clear to me. People who believe I deserve extra scrutiny when I get on an airplane because I’m Middle Eastern are racists as far as I’m concerned. Do you disagree? If not, wouldn’t you agree the same should be true of people who think Martin was one of the “fucking punks” or “these assholes” who “always get away”, because he’s black and wearing a hoodie similar to Justin Bieber’s? If not, please explain your position. Thanks. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2013, 6:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doj-may-indict-zimmerman-on-civil-rights-charges/663509/107 "2013-07-16T06:06:01Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > People who believe I deserve extra scrutiny when I get on an airplane because I’m Middle Eastern are racists as far as I’m concerned. I don’t think they are. I think they are realistic. I look somewhat Middle Eastern and when going through airport security I am often given extra scrutiny. Doesn’t bother me a bit. Don’t consider people who do it racists. When I lived in California in the mid-80s for a while, there was a police checkpoint on the highway between San Diego and LA, they would wave most of the cars through but almost always stop me - I guess I looked Mexican to them. Didn’t bother me, and didn’t consider those guys racist. When you look for illegal immigrants, you probably shouldn’t concentrate your stop and search on people who look Japanese. When you are doing security at airports (not that I think it is effective) you shouldn’t concentrate on little old ladies. Of course Middle-Eastern-looking people attract extra attention. If they didn’t, those guys would not be doing their jobs. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2013, 6:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doj-may-indict-zimmerman-on-civil-rights-charges/663509/108 "2013-07-16T06:24:09Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > People who believe I deserve extra scrutiny when I get on an airplane because I’m Middle Eastern are racists as far as I’m concerned. > > Do you disagree? No, not at all. [sound of rubber gloves snapping] [sound of plumber’s-snake motor] ---
**Author:** ![etv78](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/d78d45/32.png) [@etv78](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/etv78)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2013, 6:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doj-may-indict-zimmerman-on-civil-rights-charges/663509/109 "2013-07-16T06:29:14Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Huh. I stand enlightened. The Hate Crimes Law loosened that requirement. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2013, 6:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doj-may-indict-zimmerman-on-civil-rights-charges/663509/110 "2013-07-16T06:39:03Z")
Does anyone in this thread wish to defend the proposition that, given the evidence in this case, it would be possible to convince a jury beyond a reasonable doubt that the primary reason George Zimmerman killed Trayvon Martin was Trayvon’s race, and that – beyond a reasonable doubt – self-defense was not involved? ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2013, 10:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doj-may-indict-zimmerman-on-civil-rights-charges/663509/111 "2013-07-16T10:39:40Z")
Of course not. Sadly the person exercising his self-defence rights was shot by the asshole stalking him with a gun. ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2013, 11:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doj-may-indict-zimmerman-on-civil-rights-charges/663509/112 "2013-07-16T11:41:12Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > If I was Martin’s parents I’d probably want to pursue civil charges against the HOA for this gated community. I could see an argument they are culpable for the behavior of someone acting as a form of volunteer security for them since it was known he did so. I’m not sure what the legalities are, but the upside is they actually can probably produce money whereas Zimmerman probably cannot. > > I don’t think he’s got much, I know he had a few hundred thousand in donations but those are presumably long gone as they’ve been used to pay for his criminal defense. You are already half way to becoming a tort lawyer. 🙂 When you have a poor defendant for an intentional crime, find a rich one and come up with a negligence theory that insurance will cover. 🙂 It’s actually not a bad theory (you would still have to prove Z as culpable) but you could argue that Z was the HOA’s “agent by estoppel” since the HOA should have known that a reasonable person might think that the neighborhood watch was representing them, and hold the HOA vicariously liable for his actions. It’s far less ridiculous that some lawsuits I’ve seen. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2013, 12:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doj-may-indict-zimmerman-on-civil-rights-charges/663509/113 "2013-07-16T12:18:37Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > If I was Martin’s parents I’d probably want to pursue civil charges against the HOA for this gated community. I could see an argument they are culpable for the behavior of someone acting as a form of volunteer security for them since it was known he did so. I’m not sure what the legalities are, but the upside is they actually can probably produce money whereas Zimmerman probably cannot. > > I don’t think he’s got much, I know he had a few hundred thousand in donations but those are presumably long gone as they’ve been used to pay for his criminal defense. [They are way ahead of you.](http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2013-04-05/news/os-trayvon-martin-settlement-20130405_1_trayvon-martin-benjamin-crump-george-zimmerman) > [@](#): > > SANFORD — Trayvon Martin’s parents have settled a wrongful-death claim for an amount thought to be more than $1 million against the homeowners association of the Sanford subdivision where their teenage son was killed. > > Their attorney, Benjamin Crump, filed that paperwork at the Seminole County Courthouse, a portion of which was made public Friday. > > In the five pages of the settlement that were available for public review, the settlement amount had been marked out. Lower in the agreement, the parties specified that they would keep that amount confidential. > > When asked during an earlier interview whether the amount was more than $1 million, Crump said: “I have no comment on that subject … I know you did not get that from me.” > > Trayvon was shot to death by Neighborhood Watch volunteer George Zimmerman at the Retreat at Twin Lakes townhomes in Sanford on Feb. 26, 2012. Zimmerman served as head of the Neighborhood Watch and called police that evening, describing Trayvon as suspicious. He has said the teen attacked him and he fired in self-defense. > > The community-association manager, Kent Taylor, did not return phone calls from the Orlando Sentinel about the settlement. Neither did its attorney, Thomas R. Slaten Jr. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2013, 1:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doj-may-indict-zimmerman-on-civil-rights-charges/663509/114 "2013-07-16T13:26:35Z")
That seems appropriate to me, the amount seems typical for a wrongful death suit and I think there’s a compelling case the HOA bears some responsibility for Zimmerman’s actions. A traditional neighborhood watch in a normal municipal neighborhood where there is no HOA, then I can’t see assigning any sort of collective responsibility to the whole neighborhood for the actions of a neighborhood watchman. But a HOA in a private, gated community that maintains a lot of control over its residents is a different beast and I felt that even if they didn’t tacitly approve of having a neighborhood watch it was certainly known to be going on. Of special interest to me would be whether or not anyone else involved in the community’s neighborhood watch knew that Zimmerman was carrying a firearm when he did his surveillance (a big no-no in terms of advice/training given by various neighborhood watch associations.) ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2013, 2:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doj-may-indict-zimmerman-on-civil-rights-charges/663509/115 "2013-07-16T14:35:42Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > The NAACP is full of shit in this instance. I can’t find a single 18 USC § 249 prosecution that fails to explicitly allege – as it must, under the statute – that the physical violence was directly and primarily motivated by the victim’s race. Not even you really have the slightest doubt it was, in this instance. ---
**Author:** ![IgnoranceIsMyExcuse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/ea666f/32.png) [@IgnoranceIsMyExcuse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IgnoranceIsMyExcuse)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2013, 2:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doj-may-indict-zimmerman-on-civil-rights-charges/663509/116 "2013-07-16T14:54:08Z")
I think the DOJ will drop this with little fanfare in a month or two. The behavior of the NAACP is fairly predictable - did anyone expect them to turn around and go home quietly after the verdict? This is an interesting article on the issue. > **[Room for Debate: Should Zimmerman Face Federal Charges? - The Volokh Conspiracy](https://volokh.com/2013/07/16/room-for-debate-should-zimmerman-face-federal-charges/)** > > The latest NYT Room for Debate feature asks the question: “Should Zimmerman Face Federal Charges?” My answer (as readers might anticipate given my prior post) is “No.” In my contribution to the debate, I argue that federal prosecution of individuals... ---
**Author:** ![lawbuff](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/13edae/32.png) [@lawbuff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lawbuff)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2013, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doj-may-indict-zimmerman-on-civil-rights-charges/663509/117 "2013-07-16T14:57:01Z")
> [@IgnoranceIsMyExcuse](#): > > I think the DOJ will drop this with little fanfare in a month or two. The behavior of the NAACP is fairly predictable - did anyone expect them to turn around and go home quietly after the verdict? > > This is an interesting article on the issue. > > [Room for Debate: Should Zimmerman Face Federal Charges? - The Volokh ConspiracyThe Volokh Conspiracy](http://www.volokh.com/2013/07/16/room-for-debate-should-zimmerman-face-federal-charges/) I saw on the CBS evening news a man saying that Justice was not served and his little boy was in agreement, like he really understood! The liitle boy said he did not trust the Justice System. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2013, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doj-may-indict-zimmerman-on-civil-rights-charges/663509/118 "2013-07-16T14:58:09Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Not even you really have the slightest doubt it was, in this instance. I do, actually. The initial desire to stop and question Martin may well have been a result of Martin’s race. But no one has credibly alleged that Zimmerman killed him because of his race – he killed him because he was on the losing end of a fight. And my own certainty – and yours – aside, the prosecution would have to prove, beyond a reasonable doubt, that Zimmerman’s motive for killing Martin was Martin’s race. There is not anywhere close to enough evidence to sustain that burden. ---
**Author:** ![lawbuff](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/13edae/32.png) [@lawbuff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lawbuff)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2013, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doj-may-indict-zimmerman-on-civil-rights-charges/663509/119 "2013-07-16T15:04:02Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I do, actually. The initial desire to stop and question Martin may well have been a result of Martin’s race. But no one has credibly alleged that Zimmerman killed him because of his race – he killed him because he was on the losing end of a fight. Like the SC stated, even pulling a motorist over for his race does not violate the 4th AM, just the equal protection clause. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2013, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doj-may-indict-zimmerman-on-civil-rights-charges/663509/120 "2013-07-16T15:21:30Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > My blueprint for the prosecutor’s strategy includes charging both manslaughter and second-degree murder from the start, so there’s no alluding to an uncharged crime in my plan. My mistake. You didn’t mention the charging second-degree murder part. > [@Bruce\_Wayne](#): > > Is there any evidence George Zimmerman is a racist? This seems to be an underlying assumption and its not that clear to me. It was a casual comment. If you had a gun to my head (ha!) I’d say Zimmerman probably has some antipathy toward black youth. That’s not to say I think what he did was illegal because it was a black kid he shot, or whatever. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doj-may-indict-zimmerman-on-civil-rights-charges/663509.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doj-may-indict-zimmerman-on-civil-rights-charges/663509.md?page=7)