# DOJ report on racism and shakedown-artistry in the Ferguson PD **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 9, 2015, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doj-report-on-racism-and-shakedown-artistry-in-the-ferguson-pd/714604 "2015-03-09T15:20:48Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2015, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doj-report-on-racism-and-shakedown-artistry-in-the-ferguson-pd/714604/181 "2015-03-12T15:06:22Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Of course it does violate that - > [@Shodan](#): > > For legal purposes yes it is… > > Regards, > Shodan Cite? I’m not taking your word on this. > [@Shodan](#): > > I’m being entirely serious (if you are). Why are you holding the Justice Department to a different standard than the Ferguson police? Why does Eric Holder get to exercise discretion and the cops don’t? > > Regards, > Shodan I don’t know the extent to which a prosecution in that matter is possible (e.g. whether a statute of limitations has expired, whether the victim was willing to cooperate, etc). I do know that arresting someone for bogus reasons is far worse than _declining_ to arrest someone for something for which a case could maybe be brought. Both could be called discretion, but police don’t have discretion to violate the Constitution or make unlawful arrests. > [@Shodan](#): > > Of course, you could be acting entirely in accordance with [Missouri state law](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stop_and_identify_statutes). > > Regards, > Shodan Nope. From your cite: > [@](#): > > If the person is not reasonably suspected of committing a crime, they are not required to provide identification, even in states with stop and identify statutes. That’s the part the FPD ignored: > [@](#): > > Even apart from the facial unconstitutionality of the statute, the evidence is clear that FPD’s enforcement of Section 29-16(2) is unconstitutional in its application. Stop-and-identify laws stand in tension with the Supreme Court’s admonition that a person approached by a police officer “need not answer any question put to him; indeed, he may decline to listen to the questions at all and may go on his way.” Florida v. Royer, 460 U.S. 491, 497-98 (1983). For this reason, the Court has held that an officer cannot require a person to identify herself unless the officer first has reasonable suspicion to initiate the stop. See Brown v. Texas, 443 U.S. 47, 52-53 (1979) (holding that the application of a Texas statute that criminalized refusal to provide a name and address to a peace officer violated the Fourth Amendment where the officer lacked reasonable suspicion of criminal activity); see also Hiibel, 542 U.S. at 184 (deeming the reasonable suspicion requirement a “constitutional limitation” on stop-and-identify statutes). FPD officers, however, routinely arrest individuals under Section 29-16(2) for failure to identify themselves despite lacking reasonable suspicion to stop them in the first place. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2015, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doj-report-on-racism-and-shakedown-artistry-in-the-ferguson-pd/714604/182 "2015-03-12T15:28:46Z")
> [@aldiboronti](#): > > It’s open season on police, most of whom are dedicated people striving to do their duty. Meanwhile the holocaust of black-on-black killing in American cities goes unreported. It just doesn’t fit the liberal agenda of evil white people. If four shootings of cops in the past six months, two of which were fatal, comprises “open season” on cops, what kind of season is it on black people in America? These shootings are terrible, no doubt, and whoever committed them–whether or not they were part of the protest\*–should be prosecuted. But using these shootings to distract from the very real discussion of police racist oppression in Ferguson is despicable and shameful. - My tinfoil hat speculation is that the shootings were committed by one of our home-grown white supremacist RaHoWa groups looking to start the apocalyptic race war. I’d give that possibility somewhere between 10 and 20 percent chance, using these handy numbers I pulled out of my butt. ---
**Author:** ![What\_the](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f4b2a3/32.png) [@What\_the](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_the)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2015, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doj-report-on-racism-and-shakedown-artistry-in-the-ferguson-pd/714604/183 "2015-03-12T16:18:52Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > It’s certainly sad and tragic when cops are targeted, but it doesn’t refute the DOJ report about the racial bias and misconduct of the Ferguson PD. This sort of reaction to grievances didn’t spring up overnight. Putting anecdotes and examples aside, perhaps it does justify seemingly skewed statistics in the report. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2015, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doj-report-on-racism-and-shakedown-artistry-in-the-ferguson-pd/714604/184 "2015-03-12T16:23:45Z")
> [@What\_the](#): > > This sort of reaction to grievances didn’t spring up overnight. Putting anecdotes and examples aside, perhaps it does justify seemingly skewed statistics in the report. There was far more than just “skewed statistics” in the DOJ report. In any case, are you saying that fear of random violence justifies disparate treatment of black people (such as searching black motorists twice the rate of white motorists, even though contraband was found significantly less often in searches of black motorists)? ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2015, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doj-report-on-racism-and-shakedown-artistry-in-the-ferguson-pd/714604/185 "2015-03-12T16:31:41Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > There was far more than just “skewed statistics” in the DOJ report. In any case, are you saying that fear of random violence justifies disparate treatment of black people (such as searching black motorists twice the rate of white motorists, even though contraband was found significantly less often in searches of black motorists)? I’ve suggested in a prior thread on a related subject that perhaps many black people tend to react differently (most specifically: more confrontationally) in interactions with police, and this may result in disparate treatment. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2015, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doj-report-on-racism-and-shakedown-artistry-in-the-ferguson-pd/714604/186 "2015-03-12T16:37:42Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > I’ve suggested in a prior thread on a related subject that perhaps many black people tend to react differently (most specifically: more confrontationally) in interactions with police, and this may result in disparate treatment. That’s possible, as is racial bias (whether conscious or not) on the part of police officers, or systemic things like policies that lead to racial bias in practice (whether intentional or not). Unless all interactions were filmed (and maybe they will be soon!), it would be hard to prove your hypothesis. My own discussions with black people lead me to believe that most black people (and especially black men) are taught from a very young age the incredible life-or-death importance of acting ‘non-threatening’ in public, and especially around police. When these statistics being discussed are combined with the other data the DOJ gathered, I think their conclusions about Ferguson are reasonable. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2015, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doj-report-on-racism-and-shakedown-artistry-in-the-ferguson-pd/714604/187 "2015-03-12T16:42:08Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > Cite? I’m not taking your word on this. You’re gonna have to - the notion that walking is illegal but dancing is OK is too much like the “was there gold fringe on the flag” arguments to bother with. > [@](#): > > Nope. From your cite: > That’s the part the FPD ignored: The cop had reasonable suspcion to make a traffic stop. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2015, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doj-report-on-racism-and-shakedown-artistry-in-the-ferguson-pd/714604/188 "2015-03-12T16:43:04Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > That’s possible, as is racial bias (whether conscious or not) on the part of police officers, or systemic things like policies that lead to racial bias in practice (whether intentional or not). Unless all interactions were filmed (and maybe they will be soon!), it would be hard to prove your hypothesis. I don’t think I could prove it. It’s based largely on a lot of observations of people interacting with cops over the years (including firsthand, secondhand, and media report), but it’s a subjective judgment and is specific to me. I’m only noting that it’s worth bearing in mind as a possibility. > [@](#): > > My own discussions with black people lead me to believe that most black people (and especially black men) are taught from a very young age the incredible life-or-death importance of acting ‘non-threatening’ in public, and especially around police. I suspect this is probably more true of black kids from upper and middle class backgrounds and less true - if at all - of kids from lower class backgrounds. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2015, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doj-report-on-racism-and-shakedown-artistry-in-the-ferguson-pd/714604/189 "2015-03-12T16:45:21Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > I’ve suggested in a prior thread on a related subject that perhaps many black people tend to react differently (most specifically: more confrontationally) in interactions with police, and this may result in disparate treatment. I suggest that perhaps many police tend to react differently in interactions with black people, and this may result in disparate treatment. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2015, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doj-report-on-racism-and-shakedown-artistry-in-the-ferguson-pd/714604/190 "2015-03-12T16:49:11Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > You’re gonna have to - the notion that walking is illegal but dancing is OK is too much like the “was there gold fringe on the flag” arguments to bother with. I’ll give your opinions their due weight. > [@Shodan](#): > > The cop had reasonable suspcion to make a traffic stop. > > Regards, > Shodan Which cop? I’ve quoted, and the report contains, several instances of such illegal stops. ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2015, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doj-report-on-racism-and-shakedown-artistry-in-the-ferguson-pd/714604/191 "2015-03-12T16:55:29Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > You’re gonna have to - the notion that walking is illegal but dancing is OK is too much like the “was there gold fringe on the flag” arguments to bother with. > > The cop had reasonable suspcion to make a traffic stop. > > Regards, > Shodan When when a non-white person gets “uppity”…after being stopped all the time for nothing but their color…thats an arresting!!! Note that this report SHOWS that there was systemic bias and harassment of people based on the color of their skin and her you are saying that they should just take it. That being stopped and detained for dancing is just something that you deal with? That is absurd. “oh yessa massa I gon be a gud n…” ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2015, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doj-report-on-racism-and-shakedown-artistry-in-the-ferguson-pd/714604/192 "2015-03-12T17:15:57Z")
> [@aldiboronti](#): > > [Ferguson cops shot at protest](http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/03/12/us-usa-missouri-shooting-protest-idUSKBN0M80CJ20150312) > > The two police officers are in serious condition. It’s open season on police, most of whom are dedicated people striving to do their duty. Meanwhile the holocaust of black-on-black killing in American cities goes unreported. It just doesn’t fit the liberal agenda of evil white people. Fucking animals. All the cops should just leave. Then the sane people will leave behind them. And they can have the Ferguson they want. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2015, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doj-report-on-racism-and-shakedown-artistry-in-the-ferguson-pd/714604/193 "2015-03-12T17:17:27Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Fucking animals. All the cops should just leave. Then the sane people will leave behind them. And they can have the Ferguson they want. Who (besides the shooter) are “fucking animals”? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2015, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doj-report-on-racism-and-shakedown-artistry-in-the-ferguson-pd/714604/194 "2015-03-12T17:21:12Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > I suggest that perhaps many police tend to react differently in interactions with black people, and this may result in disparate treatment. Cite? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2015, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doj-report-on-racism-and-shakedown-artistry-in-the-ferguson-pd/714604/195 "2015-03-12T17:21:45Z")
[Ferguson police chief resigns.](http://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way/2015/03/11/392381084/ferguson-mo-police-chief-resigns-following-justice-department-report) ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2015, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doj-report-on-racism-and-shakedown-artistry-in-the-ferguson-pd/714604/196 "2015-03-12T17:26:22Z")
Mayor Knowles needs to go. ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2015, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doj-report-on-racism-and-shakedown-artistry-in-the-ferguson-pd/714604/197 "2015-03-12T17:28:42Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Fucking animals. All the cops should just leave. Then the sane people will leave behind them. And they can have the Ferguson they want. Good on you for saying “animals” instead of “niggers”. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2015, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doj-report-on-racism-and-shakedown-artistry-in-the-ferguson-pd/714604/198 "2015-03-12T17:29:44Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Who (besides the shooter) are “fucking animals”? Are you fucking kidding me? The looters, rioters, and any dickhead who supports them and gives them any type of protection. Clear enough for you? Let the law respecting citizens leave and let the animals enjoy the world more to their liking. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2015, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doj-report-on-racism-and-shakedown-artistry-in-the-ferguson-pd/714604/199 "2015-03-12T17:31:42Z")
> [@kayaker](#): > > Good on you for saying “animals” instead of “niggers”. Unlike you apparently, I am not of the mind that there aren’t many, many black people who detest the type of behavior I mentioned. But hey, you’re free to move to Ferguson. Seems like you have the right attitude. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2015, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doj-report-on-racism-and-shakedown-artistry-in-the-ferguson-pd/714604/200 "2015-03-12T17:43:52Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Are you fucking kidding me? The looters, rioters, and any dickhead who supports them and gives them any type of protection. Clear enough for you? > > Let the law respecting citizens leave and let the animals enjoy the world more to their liking. You have enough money, you can just move if you feel like it? You think everybody does? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doj-report-on-racism-and-shakedown-artistry-in-the-ferguson-pd/714604.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doj-report-on-racism-and-shakedown-artistry-in-the-ferguson-pd/714604.md?page=11)