# DOJ report on racism and shakedown-artistry in the Ferguson PD **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 9, 2015, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doj-report-on-racism-and-shakedown-artistry-in-the-ferguson-pd/714604 "2015-03-09T15:20:48Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 12
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2015, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doj-report-on-racism-and-shakedown-artistry-in-the-ferguson-pd/714604/221 "2015-03-12T19:27:19Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Oh, please. Just look at how he handled the whole Ferguson thing. And the report. It was a conclusion with a narrative added to it. [Here’s more, not that it will matter to you.](https://www.google.com/search?client=safari&rls=en&q=eric+holder+is+a+racist&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8) > > He’s Al Sharpton with a law degree and better temperament and suits. Wow. Your cite is googling “Holder is a racist”? You’re right–that cite doesn’t matter to me, unless at some point I need evidence of the laziest cite in the history of humanity. I looked at how he handled “the whole Ferguson thing.” And I looked at the report. Citing them as evidence that he’s a racist is like citing C. Everett Koop’s report on the effects of tobacco as evidence that C. Everett Koop causes cancer. ---
**Author:** ![Anaamika](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Anaamika](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anaamika)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2015, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doj-report-on-racism-and-shakedown-artistry-in-the-ferguson-pd/714604/222 "2015-03-12T19:27:34Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > Can you clarify why there would be a difference between someone who is quibbling with it and someone who is defending it? Why would one be more valid than the other? You misunderstand me, apparently. I think everyone who is participating in this thread, defenders, quibblers and posters, should at the very least read the highlights of the report, and probably the entire report. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2015, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doj-report-on-racism-and-shakedown-artistry-in-the-ferguson-pd/714604/223 "2015-03-12T19:29:07Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Oh, please. Just look at how he handled the whole Ferguson thing. And the report. It was a conclusion with a narrative added to it. [Here’s more, not that it will matter to you.](https://www.google.com/search?client=safari&rls=en&q=eric+holder+is+a+racist&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8) > > He’s Al Sharpton with a law degree and better temperament and suits. This is a totally sound methodology. I say that if the top google hit for “X is a racist” says that X is a racist, then we should believe it. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2015, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doj-report-on-racism-and-shakedown-artistry-in-the-ferguson-pd/714604/224 "2015-03-12T19:52:01Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Racism is still a major negative force in many parts of America, and many parts of America are still far from equal in opportunity to achieve and succeed in our society. > > I understand that many disagree, but why is it so damn important to so many that this statement _must necessarily be false_, even to the point of denying clear evidence like that in the DOJ Ferguson report? What is so scary about admitting that racism still exists, and it’s still responsible for a lot of bad things, even though things have improved a lot? That is because American RWs are fighting a cultural rearguard action and they know it. It is not so much that they would actually defend racism as that they feel in their bones it is a thing they should get to keep, and that any effort to fight it is part and parcel of everything else they are fighting against. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2015, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doj-report-on-racism-and-shakedown-artistry-in-the-ferguson-pd/714604/225 "2015-03-12T19:55:00Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Oh, please. Just look at how he handled the whole Ferguson thing. And the report. It was a conclusion with a narrative added to it. I strongly disagree – the way he handled the “Ferguson thing” and the report seem totally appropriate and reasonable to me. What’s wrong with the report? What do you disagree with in it? > [@](#): > > [Here’s more, not that it will matter to you.](https://www.google.com/search?client=safari&rls=en&q=eric+holder+is+a+racist&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8) I think you recognize that this is as weak a cite as Googling “Eric Holder is not a racist”. > [@](#): > > He’s Al Sharpton with a law degree and better temperament and suits. This just seems like Hannity talking points or something. Isn’t it possible that he’s just operating honestly from some very different points of view? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2015, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doj-report-on-racism-and-shakedown-artistry-in-the-ferguson-pd/714604/226 "2015-03-12T19:59:18Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > This is a bit of a tangent in terms of your post, but not in terms of the report, so I’ll mention it anyway. That’s okay – my post was a bit of a tangent anyway. > [@](#): > > I’m not sure I agree that anyone who makes or recycles a racist joke is a bigot. Sometimes things are just funny, and stereotypes can be funny to a person who knows they exist and are part of the culture, even if that person doesn’t necessarily hold the considered opinion that these are valid reflections of reality. > > To consider another example, do you think people who make or relay “Polish” jokes necessarily believe that Polish people are actually stupid? It wasn’t jokes (or it wasn’t just jokes). It was people honestly saying interracial dating was wrong, and honestly saying that black people were less capable in certain ways (or that Jews couldn’t be trusted). They weren’t joking or laughing – this was part of “rational” discussions about politics or anything else. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2015, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doj-report-on-racism-and-shakedown-artistry-in-the-ferguson-pd/714604/227 "2015-03-12T20:24:55Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > That’s okay – my post was a bit of a tangent anyway. > > It wasn’t jokes (or it wasn’t just jokes). It was people honestly saying interracial dating was wrong, and honestly saying that black people were less capable in certain ways (or that Jews couldn’t be trusted). They weren’t joking or laughing – this was part of “rational” discussions about politics or anything else. See post #224. For a very long time, racism was simply part of American culture. **Everybody** knew that blacks are mentally inferior to whites; most blacks probably believed it too, having been told so all their lives and hearing no words in contradiction. The one uniquely American form of stage entertainment ever invented is the minstrel show. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2015, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doj-report-on-racism-and-shakedown-artistry-in-the-ferguson-pd/714604/228 "2015-03-12T20:39:07Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > It wasn’t jokes (or it wasn’t just jokes). It was people honestly saying interracial dating was wrong, and honestly saying that black people were less capable in certain ways (or that Jews couldn’t be trusted). They weren’t joking or laughing – this was part of “rational” discussions about politics or anything else. Agreed, that’s something else, but you also mentioned jokes so I thought I’d bring it up. I was thinking of the types of jokes cited in the report (page 72) as evidence of bias in the FPD. It’s possible that the senders of such jokes are in fact bigots, but IMHO it’s also possible that they’re just people who find some humor in jokes which play on offensive stereotypes (or who think other people might find them funny). ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2015, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doj-report-on-racism-and-shakedown-artistry-in-the-ferguson-pd/714604/229 "2015-03-12T20:50:23Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > Agreed, that’s something else, but you also mentioned jokes so I thought I’d bring it up. I was thinking of the types of jokes cited in the report (page 72) as evidence of bias in the FPD. It’s possible that the senders of such jokes are in fact bigots, but IMHO it’s also possible that they’re just people who find some humor in jokes which play on offensive stereotypes (or who think other people might find them funny). The same way that someone who attends a KKK rally might just be someone who likes to set things on fire and wear white robes, right? Sure, everything is possible. But what is more likely? If it were just one or two incidents, hand-waving would be appropriate. But the weight of evidence here is crushing. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2015, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doj-report-on-racism-and-shakedown-artistry-in-the-ferguson-pd/714604/230 "2015-03-12T20:56:05Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > This is a totally sound methodology. I say that if the top google hit for “X is a racist” says that X is a racist, then we should believe it. [Top Google hits for **magellan01** is a racist.](https://www.google.com/search?q=magellan01+is+a+racsit&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8#q=magellan01+is+a+racist) Clearly, it must be true! ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2015, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doj-report-on-racism-and-shakedown-artistry-in-the-ferguson-pd/714604/231 "2015-03-12T21:35:01Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > Agreed, that’s something else, but you also mentioned jokes so I thought I’d bring it up. I was thinking of the types of jokes cited in the report (page 72) as evidence of bias in the FPD. It’s possible that the senders of such jokes are in fact bigots, but IMHO it’s also possible that they’re just people who find some humor in jokes which play on offensive stereotypes (or who think other people might find them funny). Those “jokes” are more utilizing offensive stereotypes than “playing on” them, IMO. The “best case scenario”, IMO, is that such folks are just indifferent towards bigotry, whether or not they are bigots themselves. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2015, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doj-report-on-racism-and-shakedown-artistry-in-the-ferguson-pd/714604/232 "2015-03-12T21:39:37Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Fucking animals. All the cops should just leave. Then the sane people will leave behind them. And they can have the Ferguson they want. This, of course, ignores the fact the that the police reports following the riots indicated that only two citizens of Ferguson were arrested among the rioters. The people actually looting and rioting were not citizens of Ferguson, although you seem quite willing to blame the community as a whole for the actions of others. Meanwhile, it might be a good idea for many of the cops to leave, to be replaced by competent, professional police instead of the several, (many?), officers who participated in the various shakedowns of the back community discovered by the Department of Justice. We do not, at this point, know who fired at the police, last night, so any assumption that that was a Ferguson citizen is also premature. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2015, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doj-report-on-racism-and-shakedown-artistry-in-the-ferguson-pd/714604/233 "2015-03-12T21:43:28Z")
That said, EVERYONE needs to back off, stop commenting on other posters, stop throwing around epithets, and stick to the actual discussion of the DoJ report. \*\* [/Moderating]\*\* ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2015, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doj-report-on-racism-and-shakedown-artistry-in-the-ferguson-pd/714604/234 "2015-03-12T21:52:42Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > [Here’s more, not that it will matter to you.](https://www.google.com/search?client=safari&rls=en&q=eric+holder+is+a+racist&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8) Oh, please, yourself. Yo are really citing Limbaugh who is making up his own story just to get the dittoheads to chant “Yeah!”? His whole _all the cops in the country do it_ regarding traffic fines ignores the documented evidence that the police and courts, while going after black drivers, had a habit of giving out warnings instead of tickets to white drivers and the courts quashing the tickets that were handed out to white drivers. It does matter to me that Limbaugh promotes the hatred he does. I matters more to me when his lies are submitted as “evidence” in a debate. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2015, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doj-report-on-racism-and-shakedown-artistry-in-the-ferguson-pd/714604/235 "2015-03-12T21:54:41Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > Meanwhile, it might be a good idea for many of the cops to leave, to be replaced by competent, professional police instead of the several, (many?), officers who participated in the various shakedowns of the back community discovered by the Department of Justice. It might be a better and simpler idea to dissolve the Ferguson PD and let the county police take over. Actually, I don’t see why there should be **any** police forces below the county level in this day and age. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2015, 12:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doj-report-on-racism-and-shakedown-artistry-in-the-ferguson-pd/714604/236 "2015-03-13T00:14:40Z")
Nor any governments below the county level, for that matter. Let everyone follow [Jacksonville’s example](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacksonville_Consolidation). ---
**Author:** ![Punoqllads](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/d2c977/32.png) [@Punoqllads](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Punoqllads)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2015, 12:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doj-report-on-racism-and-shakedown-artistry-in-the-ferguson-pd/714604/237 "2015-03-13T00:42:18Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > I’m saying it’s virtually inevitable that any member of a group which actually commits a disproportionate percentage of the crime will have a higher rate of incorrect suspicions about them. Searches should occur when there’s a reasonable suspicion. Being black is not a reasonable suspicion. From the FBI report, page 65: > [@](#): > > This disparity exists even after controlling for the type of search conducted, whether a search incident to arrest, a consent search, or a search predicated on reasonable suspicion. The lower rate at which officers find contraband when searching African Americans indicates either that officers’ suspicion of criminal wrongdoing is less likely to be accurate when interacting with African Americans or that officers are more likely to search African Americans without any suspicion of criminal wrongdoing. Either explanation suggests bias, whether explicit or implicit. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2015, 4:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doj-report-on-racism-and-shakedown-artistry-in-the-ferguson-pd/714604/238 "2015-03-13T04:01:35Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Of course, you could be acting entirely in accordance with [Missouri state law](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stop_and_identify_statutes). > > Regards, > Shodan Your assertion appears to be incorrect. The Missouri law cited in your link does not allow officers to demand a person identify themselves unless certain criteria are met. Riding in a vehicle does not meet that criteria. You link led me to a link to the Missouri law in question, and it doesn’t say what you seem to think it says; I helpfully bolded the pertinent sentence:[ > [@](#): > > 1. They shall have power within the city or on public property of the city beyond the corporate limits thereof to arrest, on view, any person they see violating or whom they have reason to suspect of having violated any law of the state or ordinance of the city. They shall have power to arrest and hold, without warrant, for a period of time not exceeding twenty-four hours, persons found within the city or on public property of the city beyond the corporate limits thereof charged with having committed felonies in other states, and who are reported to be fugitives from justice. **They shall also have the power to stop any person abroad whenever there is reasonable ground to suspect that he is committing, has committed or is about to commit a crime and demand of him his name, address, business abroad and whither he is going.** When stopping or detaining a suspect, they may search him for a dangerous weapon whenever they have reasonable ground to believe they are in danger from the possession of such dangerous weapon by the suspect. No unreasonable force shall be used in detaining or arresting any person, but such force as may be necessary may be used when there is no other apparent means of making an arrest or preventing an escape and only after the peace officer has made every reasonable effort to advise the person that he is the peace officer engaged in making arrest. ]([http://www.moga.mo.gov/mostatutes/stathtml/08400007101.HTML](http://www.moga.mo.gov/mostatutes/stathtml/08400007101.HTML)) ---
**Author:** ![Deeg](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/deeg/32/2955_2.png) [@Deeg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Deeg)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2015, 4:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doj-report-on-racism-and-shakedown-artistry-in-the-ferguson-pd/714604/239 "2015-03-13T04:47:00Z")
> [@theR](#): > > [Two](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=18196586&postcount=144) [people](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=18196586&postcount=145) already replied to your previous comment about this. They seemed like pretty reasonable replies to me. > > I’d like to ask what your belief is with regard to the commonality causing similar statistics if it’s not the police. Monstro was eminently reasonable. I just happen to disagree, or at least question the premise. I’ve already given one reason to question it: one one expect that cities that would probably be less racist would have better arrest records; they don’t. This could be countered by an example of a city with a good arrest record but so far none have been found. That doesn’t _prove_ anything but it is, for now, a data point. Another is this: the arrest rate for males is much higher than females. Does anybody rationally suggest that cops are the reason for the discrepancy, even to a small degree? Why, then, is the arrest rate for black males definite proof of racist cops? I’d just like to see better evidence. Maybe we’re missing some other cause. ---
**Author:** ![Deeg](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/deeg/32/2955_2.png) [@Deeg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Deeg)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2015, 4:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doj-report-on-racism-and-shakedown-artistry-in-the-ferguson-pd/714604/240 "2015-03-13T04:50:46Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Who else? Maybe it’s lack of education and poverty that lead to a culture of nihilism. Maybe it’s price society pays for white privilege. I dunno but I’d prefer we not latch on to a convenient cause because it’s easy. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doj-report-on-racism-and-shakedown-artistry-in-the-ferguson-pd/714604.md?page=11) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doj-report-on-racism-and-shakedown-artistry-in-the-ferguson-pd/714604.md?page=13)