# DoJ sues Sheriff Arpaio for civil-rights abuses; anyone care to take Arpaio's side here? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 12, 2012, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doj-sues-sheriff-arpaio-for-civil-rights-abuses-anyone-care-to-take-arpaios-side-here/621726 "2012-05-12T20:42:13Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2012, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doj-sues-sheriff-arpaio-for-civil-rights-abuses-anyone-care-to-take-arpaios-side-here/621726/1 "2012-05-12T20:42:13Z")
I initially addressed this topic in a [Pit thread,](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=651420) with Arpaio the Pittee, as seems fitting – at least among Dopers, for the most part – but, prowling about the Intertubes, one finds that public opinion is not quite so one-sided and Sheriff Joe does have his defenders, and even admirers. So, let’s give 'em a chance here. [Breaking story:](http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-justice-sheriff-20120511,0,158798.story) > [@](#): > > WASHINGTON — The Justice Department has sued Sheriff Joe Arpaio of Arizona, asking a federal court to prevent the brazen and outspoken lawman from racially profiling Latinos, abusing them in his jails and retaliating against his critics. > > “The police are supposed to protect and support our community, not divide them,” said Assistant Atty. Gen. Thomas E. Perez, head of the Justice Department’s civil rights division. “This is an abuse of power case involving a sheriff and a sheriff’s office that has ignored the Constitution.” > > The lawsuit, filed Thursday in U.S. District Court in Phoenix, alleges that Arpaio’s Maricopa County department engages in a “pattern of unconstitutional conduct” against Latinos, especially immigrants. > > Justice Department officials in Washington are asking the court to name an independent monitor to oversee the sheriff’s office, develop reform policies to better staff the jails and patrol the county, and possibly find Arpaio and other top sheriff’s officials in contempt of court if they do not make changes in a community whose Latino population has grown by 47% over the last decade. (Peruse the comments at the bottom and you’ll see what I mean.) And, apparently, the situation in Maricopa County Sheriff’s Office [is even worse](http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/05/10/justice-department-joe-arpaio-lawsuit_n_1507098.html?ref=politics) than the above makes it look; just to take one example of several given here: > [@](#): > > **Latinos Are Indiscriminately Detained In Immigration Raids** > > A Latina born in the United States was taken into custody for four hours in a raid to determine her immigration status. Arpaio was quoted in response, “That’s just normal police work. You sometimes take people in for probable cause for questioning and they’re released.” The suit notes that the reason for her detainment – being Latina and present during a raid – were insufficient. Here’s the [Complaint.](http://www.scribd.com/doc/93122473/Complaint) What we call the “prayer clause” at the end – > [@](#): > > PRAYER FOR RELIEF > > 1. WHEREFORE, the United States prays that the Court: > > 2. Declare that the Defendants have engaged in a pattern or practice of conduct by MCSO law enforcement officers that deprives persons of rights, immunities secured or protected by the Constitution or laws of theUnited States, in violation of 42 U.S.C. § 14141(a); > > 3. Declare that the Defendants have excluded persons from participation in,denied persons the benefits of, or subjected persons to discrimination under programsor activities receiving federal financial assistance, on the basis of race, color, ornational origin, in violation of Title VI; > > 4. Order the Defendants, their officers, agents, and employees to refrain fromengaging in any of the predicate discriminatory acts forming the basis of the pattern orpractice of unlawful conduct described herein; > > 5. Order the Defendants, their officers, agents, and employees to adopt andimplement policies, procedures, and mechanisms to remedy the pattern or practice of unlawful conduct described herein, and by specifically addressing, inter alia, thefollowing areas: policies and training; non-discriminatory policing and jailoperations; stops, searches, and arrests; response to crimes of sexual violence; posseoperations; jail operations; supervision; misconduct complaint intake, investigation,and adjudication; retaliation; oversight and transparency; and communityengagement; and > > 6. Order such other relief as the interests of justice may require. – demands no money, only a court order to make Arpaio and his department **stop doing this shit.** Now, set on the other side (not legally, but politically, socially, etc.) of this are such considerations as states’ rights and local autonomy, which are still important to many Americans, I suppose. Also the consideration of border control; but I don’t see how anything Arpaio or his department has been doing is necessary or helpful to effective border control. Does anyone care to make a case here that Arpaio should not be sued, or that he has Done the Right Things, or at any rate things a sheriff should be allowed to do? ---
**Author:** ![DigitalC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ebca7d/32.png) [@DigitalC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DigitalC)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2012, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doj-sues-sheriff-arpaio-for-civil-rights-abuses-anyone-care-to-take-arpaios-side-here/621726/2 "2012-05-12T20:59:05Z")
If he didn’t have tons of supporters he wouldn’t keep getting reelected in landslides. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2012, 11:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doj-sues-sheriff-arpaio-for-civil-rights-abuses-anyone-care-to-take-arpaios-side-here/621726/3 "2012-05-12T23:40:51Z")
> [@DigitalC](#): > > If he didn’t have tons of supporters he wouldn’t keep getting reelected in landslides. That is an important fact, but it is not an argument in his defense. ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2012, 11:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doj-sues-sheriff-arpaio-for-civil-rights-abuses-anyone-care-to-take-arpaios-side-here/621726/4 "2012-05-12T23:52:21Z")
He seems to think it is, as do many of his supporters. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2012, 12:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doj-sues-sheriff-arpaio-for-civil-rights-abuses-anyone-care-to-take-arpaios-side-here/621726/5 "2012-05-13T00:26:58Z")
> [@Chimera](#): > > He seems to think it is, as do many of his supporters. Yes, well, Strom Thurmond or Jesse Helms might have claimed the same. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2012, 1:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doj-sues-sheriff-arpaio-for-civil-rights-abuses-anyone-care-to-take-arpaios-side-here/621726/6 "2012-05-13T01:06:33Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Does anyone care to make a case here that Arpaio should not be sued, or that he has Done the Right Things, or at any rate things a sheriff should be allowed to do? To the contrary, if all the allegations in the complaint are true and there is no context which explains them, then this is very appropriate. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2012, 1:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doj-sues-sheriff-arpaio-for-civil-rights-abuses-anyone-care-to-take-arpaios-side-here/621726/7 "2012-05-13T01:48:25Z")
I’m not a lawyer, but that seems like a might big “if”, no? I read through about half the charges and it seems to me that they’re just trying to throw every conceivable they can think of against him. Much of it seems to assume that the actions were unlawful, based on an overall predetermination of guilt as far as the most severe charges. Also, much of involves the issue of “profiling” and the degree to which it might make sense and be legal. And, OMG, the officers used discretion. I’d say that if Scandinavians were being included in some of these actions as much as those of Hispanic descent, that would be mind-blowing dumb and the people should be fired for sheer stupidity and incompetence. I do not know if the numbers cited make for a strong case or a weak case. Kind of like a claim that 98% of the people arrested in Harlem in 199X were Black or Hispanic. I’m curious to hear the defense for each of the charges. So, for now, do not condemn sherif Joe. Clone him. ---
**Author:** ![Mosier](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ea924/32.png) [@Mosier](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mosier)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2012, 2:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doj-sues-sheriff-arpaio-for-civil-rights-abuses-anyone-care-to-take-arpaios-side-here/621726/8 "2012-05-13T02:02:40Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > So, for now, do not condemn sherif Joe. Clone him. Can you please clarify this statement? Are you saying we need more men like Arpaio in positions of power? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2012, 3:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doj-sues-sheriff-arpaio-for-civil-rights-abuses-anyone-care-to-take-arpaios-side-here/621726/9 "2012-05-13T03:08:52Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > I’m not a lawyer, but that seems like a might big “if”, no? I read through about half the charges and it seems to me that they’re just trying to throw every conceivable they can think of against him. Much of it seems to assume that the actions were unlawful, based on an overall predetermination of guilt as far as the most severe charges. > > Also, much of involves the issue of “profiling” and the degree to which it might make sense and be legal. And, OMG, the officers used discretion. I’d say that if Scandinavians were being included in some of these actions as much as those of Hispanic descent, that would be mind-blowing dumb and the people should be fired for sheer stupidity and incompetence. I do not know if the numbers cited make for a strong case or a weak case. Kind of like a claim that 98% of the people arrested in Harlem in 199X were Black or Hispanic. I’m curious to hear the defense for each of the charges. > > So, for now, do not condemn sherif Joe. Clone him. Paragraph 45 details an instance in which the probable cause reported for the stop was that the car’s occupants were disheveled and wearing dirty clothing and laying on top of one another, but pictures of the stop show “neatly dressed passengers sitting comfortably” in the car. Assuming that the pictures are as described, and the report says what is alleged – in other words, assuming that the allegations in the complaint are true – what do you imagine an effective defense might be? ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2012, 4:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doj-sues-sheriff-arpaio-for-civil-rights-abuses-anyone-care-to-take-arpaios-side-here/621726/10 "2012-05-13T04:09:04Z")
First of all, let’s dismiss one issue. Sheriff Joe is extremely anti-illegal immigration and most illegal immigrants in the US are Hispanic and almost all illegal immigrants in Maricopa County are Hispanic. If you are targeting illegal immigration then most of those affected will be Hispanic. That in of itself does not make it racist and leads to conflict like when he raided an outspoken public officials office and arrested illegal immigrants. Once again, being anti-illegal immigration does not mean being racist or anti-Hispanic!!! That being said, Phoenix was one of the most racist places I’ve ever been in and Sheriff Joe reflects that [DigitalC]. I think he does hassle Hispanics in the name of illegal immigration. I think Joe is also a lightning rod for all of the contraversy of illegal immigration. Remember above the raid on another public official’s office? Of course that guy talked about racism and Arpaio overstepping his bounds but he completely ignored that he had employed illegal immigrants in violation of state and Federal law. And this statement in the OP > [@](#): > > a “pattern of unconstitutional conduct” against Latinos, especially immigrants. Wherefore are illegal immigrants entitled to Constitutional protection? I know SCOTUS gave them those protections as they are considered “residents” under the 14th Amendment but we are rapidly drifting into “illegal immigrants” = “citizens without papers” territory and Sheriff Joe objects to that. BUT even if you agree with him on that you can’t agree with him on targeting all Hispanics to try to catch them. ---
**Author:** ![Happy\_Fun\_Ball](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/happy_fun_ball/32/17664_2.png) [@Happy\_Fun\_Ball](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Happy_Fun_Ball)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2012, 4:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doj-sues-sheriff-arpaio-for-civil-rights-abuses-anyone-care-to-take-arpaios-side-here/621726/11 "2012-05-13T04:22:49Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > Wherefore are illegal immigrants entitled to Constitutional protection? I know SCOTUS gave them those protections as they are considered “residents” under the 14th Amendment but we are rapidly drifting into “illegal immigrants” = “citizens without papers” territory and Sheriff Joe objects to that. BUT even if you agree with him on that you can’t agree with him on targeting all Hispanics to try to catch them. What are you saying here? Are you implying that non-citizens should not be entitled to due process of law? Or are you saying that he believes that? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2012, 4:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doj-sues-sheriff-arpaio-for-civil-rights-abuses-anyone-care-to-take-arpaios-side-here/621726/12 "2012-05-13T04:59:09Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > I’m not a lawyer, but that seems like a might big “if”, no? I read through about half the charges and it seems to me that they’re just trying to throw every conceivable they can think of against him. I **am** a lawyer and that’s exactly how you draft a complaint, whether you’re suing a government official or the guy who rear-ended your client. Every count you can think of and think you can prove goes in. > [@magellan01](#): > > Much of it seems to assume that the actions were unlawful, based on an overall predetermination of guilt as far as the most severe charges. See above. **Of course** the party bringing the suit will assert the law is on his side on every point. > [@magellan01](#): > > Also, much of involves the issue of “profiling” and the degree to which it might make sense and be legal. Care to debate **that,** then? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2012, 5:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doj-sues-sheriff-arpaio-for-civil-rights-abuses-anyone-care-to-take-arpaios-side-here/621726/13 "2012-05-13T05:01:01Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > Once again, being anti-illegal immigration does not mean being racist or anti-Hispanic!!! No, it **shouldn’t.** In fact, however, you know as well as I do that if the illegal-immigration pressure were coming from Canada instead of Mexico, the Minutemen would not exist, and you never would have heard of any Arpaio-analogue in any border county of North Dakota. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2012, 5:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doj-sues-sheriff-arpaio-for-civil-rights-abuses-anyone-care-to-take-arpaios-side-here/621726/14 "2012-05-13T05:03:27Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > Wherefore are illegal immigrants entitled to Constitutional protection? I know SCOTUS gave them those protections as they are considered “residents” . . . You needn’t be even a “resident” to have constitutional protections. Foreign tourists get them too. So do foreign criminals here, for that matter. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2012, 5:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doj-sues-sheriff-arpaio-for-civil-rights-abuses-anyone-care-to-take-arpaios-side-here/621726/15 "2012-05-13T05:04:43Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Paragraph 45 details an instance in which the probable cause reported for the stop was that the car’s occupants were disheveled and wearing dirty clothing and laying on top of one another, but pictures of the stop show “neatly dressed passengers sitting comfortably” in the car. > > Assuming that the pictures are as described, and the report says what is alleged – in other words, assuming that the allegations in the complaint are true – what do you imagine an effective defense might be? Well, if it’s as you describe, I’d say the only defense is that whoever wrote the report is insane. It seems to be a blatant lie. My guess is that there are some individual instances where the cops acted inappropriately,and even illegally. I’m sure that happens in just about any large place department. And when it does, I’m all for punishing the individuals to the fullest extent of the law. And then some. But what I think is happening here is that they’re taking every possible situation which maybe could be construed as inappropriate behavior and broad brushing all of them with “racist!”. And it’s all based on people’s disagreement with Arizona’s law and Arpaio’s tough stance on crime and his being tasked to use the law as a tool to help address Maricopa County’s illegal immigrant problem. It’s not really a _legal_ problem, it’s a _philosophical_ difference. and his opponents are using the law to bludgeon him. Damn lawyers. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2012, 5:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doj-sues-sheriff-arpaio-for-civil-rights-abuses-anyone-care-to-take-arpaios-side-here/621726/16 "2012-05-13T05:13:04Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > I **am** a lawyer and that’s exactly how you draft a complaint, whether you’re suing a government official or the guy who rear-ended your client. Every count you can think of and think you can prove goes in. Yeah, I’m aware of that. But tell me, is it common that SO MANY things would be thrown in? (I’m surprised that preference away from Mexican food wasn’t thrown in.) I’s think a judge would find that highly annoying. I know I wold. Charge the guy for the actual things he did wrong and call it a day. Just because he may be guilty of doing something wrong doesn’t mean he does everything wrong. But if it, as you say, is common, how common might it be that the lawyers bringing the suit get bitch slapped by the judged? But thanks for the instructive answers. > [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Care to debate **that,** then? I explained what I meant in that same paragraph in which what you quoted appeared. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2012, 5:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doj-sues-sheriff-arpaio-for-civil-rights-abuses-anyone-care-to-take-arpaios-side-here/621726/17 "2012-05-13T05:13:13Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > It’s not really a _legal_ problem, it’s a _philosophical_ difference. Then debate it in those terms. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2012, 5:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doj-sues-sheriff-arpaio-for-civil-rights-abuses-anyone-care-to-take-arpaios-side-here/621726/18 "2012-05-13T05:14:58Z")
> [@Mosier](#): > > Can you please clarify this statement? Are you saying we need more men like Arpaio in positions of power? Yes. and the people he serves think he is an asset, as well. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2012, 5:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doj-sues-sheriff-arpaio-for-civil-rights-abuses-anyone-care-to-take-arpaios-side-here/621726/19 "2012-05-13T05:15:59Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Then debate it in those terms. Not following you. Debate what exactly? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2012, 5:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doj-sues-sheriff-arpaio-for-civil-rights-abuses-anyone-care-to-take-arpaios-side-here/621726/20 "2012-05-13T05:17:33Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Yeah, I’m aware of that. But tell me, is it common that SO MANY things would be thrown in? Yes. And now Arpaio’s lawyers get to prepare a motion for summary judgment as to each count where they think they have a good argument; that’s how it works. > [@magellan01](#): > > (I’m surprised that preference away from Mexican food wasn’t thrown in.) I’s think a judge would find that highly annoying. I know I wold. You have to bring a **frivolous** count to annoy a judge (and violate rules of professional ethics). A frivolous count is a purely talking-out-your-ass count on which you could never hope to win on any facts. > [@magellan01](#): > > Charge the guy for the actual things he did wrong and call it a day. Just because he may be guilty of doing something wrong doesn’t mean he does everything wrong. But if it, as you say, is common, how common might it be that the lawyers bringing the suit get bitch slapped by the judged? See above. In a DoJ lawsuit it is, I should think, **extremely** rare; they have the best lawyers anywhere. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doj-sues-sheriff-arpaio-for-civil-rights-abuses-anyone-care-to-take-arpaios-side-here/621726.md?page=2)