# DoJ sues Sheriff Arpaio for civil-rights abuses; anyone care to take Arpaio's side here? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 12, 2012, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doj-sues-sheriff-arpaio-for-civil-rights-abuses-anyone-care-to-take-arpaios-side-here/621726 "2012-05-12T20:42:13Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2012, 1:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doj-sues-sheriff-arpaio-for-civil-rights-abuses-anyone-care-to-take-arpaios-side-here/621726/181 "2012-05-16T13:32:59Z")
For all the time you spent typing that, you could have actually found and posted a cite. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2012, 1:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doj-sues-sheriff-arpaio-for-civil-rights-abuses-anyone-care-to-take-arpaios-side-here/621726/182 "2012-05-16T13:34:48Z")
> [@E-Sabbath](#): > > That’s more like what I was hoping for. I think we can assume that various statements were testified to under oath. Eg, the bit where Hendershott said Sheriff Joe came up with the idea to charge the judge. What value do those have in a future trial? I’m gonna assume that at the very least they can be introduced into evidence, Hendershott can be called on to re-testify, and face contempt charges if he changes his testimony? Close. Hendershott’s testimony can’t be introduced into evidence in a criminal trial of someone else – it’s hearsay. But certainly Hendershott can be called to testify in that trial. And if he testifies differently, then his prior testimony can be used to impeach his current testimony; this is one exception to the hearsay rule. > [@](#): > > It’s meaty as hell, is what it is. Agreed. There’s more than enough there to justify an indictment, and more than enough there to justify a conviction (if believed by a jury and if there’s no defense counter). ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2012, 1:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doj-sues-sheriff-arpaio-for-civil-rights-abuses-anyone-care-to-take-arpaios-side-here/621726/183 "2012-05-16T13:45:26Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > I suppose not. Anectdotal impression; I once spent a year living in southern Miami-Dade County, and it was the first time in my life I ever felt tall (at 5’8"). Most Latinos in the Miami-Dade County area aren’t Mexican. They’re far more likely to be Cuban, Puerto Rican, Columbian or something else. ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2012, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doj-sues-sheriff-arpaio-for-civil-rights-abuses-anyone-care-to-take-arpaios-side-here/621726/184 "2012-05-16T14:59:42Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > In general, the practices alleged either don’t rise to the level of criminal activity, or would be difficult to impute criminal liability directly to Arapio. In other words, not only would you have to provbe that a deputy lied to support a probable cause determination, but that Arapio ordered him to tell that lie. So why is that cause for a civil suit? “He’s not done anything provably criminal. We can’t prosecute him; so we’ll sue him.” just seems wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Lust4Life](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ecc23a/32.png) [@Lust4Life](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lust4Life)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2012, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doj-sues-sheriff-arpaio-for-civil-rights-abuses-anyone-care-to-take-arpaios-side-here/621726/185 "2012-05-16T15:01:38Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > For all the time you spent typing that, you could have actually found and posted a cite. I’m going to have a word with someone, if thats alright with you ? ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2012, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doj-sues-sheriff-arpaio-for-civil-rights-abuses-anyone-care-to-take-arpaios-side-here/621726/186 "2012-05-16T15:08:05Z")
> [@Lust4Life](#): > > I’m going to have a word with someone, if thats alright with you ? Anecdotes are not generally speaking useful cites, as we would have not one scrap of evidence that you actually talked to a person before coming back. As demonstrated here: “No, I called up my buddy who’s a London cop, and he told me that they racially profile all the time, there’s no policy against it whatsoever.” The above is a blatant falsehood. Note how it is indistinguishable from actual true testimony in the absence of an authoritative link. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2012, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doj-sues-sheriff-arpaio-for-civil-rights-abuses-anyone-care-to-take-arpaios-side-here/621726/187 "2012-05-16T15:10:52Z")
> [@Lust4Life](#): > > I’m going to have a word with someone, if thats alright with you ? I don’t mind if you have a word with someone. Using that conversation as a cite is another matter, however. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2012, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doj-sues-sheriff-arpaio-for-civil-rights-abuses-anyone-care-to-take-arpaios-side-here/621726/188 "2012-05-16T15:12:58Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > So why is that cause for a civil suit? “He’s not done anything provably criminal. We can’t prosecute him; so we’ll sue him.” just seems wrong. Because civil liability extends farther than criminal liability does. There are plenty of acts that are tortious – you fail in a duty of care that you owe me – but not criminal. ---
**Author:** ![Lust4Life](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ecc23a/32.png) [@Lust4Life](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lust4Life)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2012, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doj-sues-sheriff-arpaio-for-civil-rights-abuses-anyone-care-to-take-arpaios-side-here/621726/189 "2012-05-16T15:26:06Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > I don’t mind if you have a word with someone. Using that conversation as a cite is another matter, however. I remember a thread where we discussing migrant workers in the U.K. and you making the comment that "they "were necessary because they did the jobs that “We”, as in yourself and all the other Brits, wouldn’t do. Unfortunately you revealed yourself as an immigrant to the U.K. quite a while afterwards. Liars need good memories \*\*Gyrate \*\* , pity that you haven’t got one eh ? So don’t give me lectures on what I should or shouldn’t be doing. Your not just a coward, but a liar as well. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2012, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doj-sues-sheriff-arpaio-for-civil-rights-abuses-anyone-care-to-take-arpaios-side-here/621726/190 "2012-05-16T15:27:37Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Then, we need more Mexicans, don’t we? Or how about we raise wages to a point where Americans find them attractive? Being a garbage man is a not fun job, but we don’t think “OMG, no one will do that job for minimum wage so we should bring in people from another country.” Now, if we raise the wages to what the job actually deserves and we are still short workers, let’s allow people from Mexico to come do them—via a guest worker program. Seems to work for Canada. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2012, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doj-sues-sheriff-arpaio-for-civil-rights-abuses-anyone-care-to-take-arpaios-side-here/621726/191 "2012-05-16T15:32:56Z")
> [@Lust4Life](#): > > I remember a thread where we discussing migrant workers in the U.K. and you making the comment that "they "were necessary because they did the jobs that “We”, as in yourself and all the other Brits, wouldn’t do. > > Unfortunately you revealed yourself as an immigrant to the U.K. quite a while afterwards. Yeah, that was a helluva swim. The Rio Grande is nothing, I tell you. Nothing! I do tend to switch the country I identify with depending on context (long-term current residence versus upbringing and citizenship) but I’ve never intended to portray myself as a native Brit. If I confused you at some point, I apologize (or should I say “apologise”? I also switch spelling.). > [@](#): > > Liars need good memories \*\*Gyrate \*\* , pity that you haven’t got one eh ? > > So don’t give me lectures on what I should or shouldn’t be doing. > > Your not just a coward, but a liar as well. Ouch. I am wounded. Clearly this makes your argument much more compelling. Incidentally my mother was an immigrant to the US from Hungary. And her mother was an immigrant from Romania to Hungary (although ethnically Hungarian). You just can’t trust us peripatetic types. ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2012, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doj-sues-sheriff-arpaio-for-civil-rights-abuses-anyone-care-to-take-arpaios-side-here/621726/192 "2012-05-16T15:33:19Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Or how about we raise wages to a point where Americans find them attractive? … Now, if we raise the wages to what the job actually deserves… It should be obvious, but there are many jobs out there that are priced as high as people are willing to pay for the associated service, but still priced sufficiently low that the labor pool for those jobs is very small. > [@](#): > > …and we are still short workers, let’s allow people from Mexico to come do them—via a guest worker program. Seems to work for Canada. The jobs are priced at what the labor market will currently bear. Why waste time and expense with a guest worker program when we could simply increase legal immigration quotas to match job availability? ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2012, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doj-sues-sheriff-arpaio-for-civil-rights-abuses-anyone-care-to-take-arpaios-side-here/621726/193 "2012-05-16T15:34:35Z")
> [@Lust4Life](#): > > Your not just a coward, but a liar as well. You are not allowed to call another poster a liar in this forum. Save it for the Pit and do not do it again in Great Debates. ---
**Author:** ![Lust4Life](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ecc23a/32.png) [@Lust4Life](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lust4Life)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2012, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doj-sues-sheriff-arpaio-for-civil-rights-abuses-anyone-care-to-take-arpaios-side-here/621726/194 "2012-05-16T15:48:18Z")
> [@Zeriel](#): > > Anecdotes are not generally speaking useful cites, as we would have not one scrap of evidence that you actually talked to a person before coming back. > > As demonstrated here: “No, I called up my buddy who’s a London cop, and he told me that they racially profile all the time, there’s no policy against it whatsoever.” > > The above is a blatant falsehood. Note how it is indistinguishable from actual true testimony in the absence of an authoritative link. But they are useful if I ask him about it and then ask him the relevant regulation or procedural number designation etc. If you’re a non copper you could spend years wading through reams of directions etc applicable to serving police officers. I thought that it would be more genuine then much of the disinformation put into cyberspace by individuals, interest groups or the media. Is that alright with you then ? If you like I’ll drop everything, and insist my contact stops doing whatever he’s doing so that we can sort this very important issue out. Or were you hoping that I’d go boo hoo, everyones picking on me, I’m going to stop posting my opinions ? In your dreams. Can the next coward step up to the mark please. ---
**Author:** ![Lust4Life](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ecc23a/32.png) [@Lust4Life](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lust4Life)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2012, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doj-sues-sheriff-arpaio-for-civil-rights-abuses-anyone-care-to-take-arpaios-side-here/621726/195 "2012-05-16T16:00:24Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > Yeah, that was a helluva swim. The Rio Grande is nothing, I tell you. Nothing! > > I do tend to switch the country I identify with depending on context (long-term current residence versus upbringing and citizenship) but I’ve never intended to portray myself as a native Brit. If I confused you at some point, I apologize (or should I say “apologise”? I also switch spelling.). Ouch. I am wounded. Clearly this makes your argument much more compelling. > > Incidentally my mother was an immigrant to the US from Hungary. And her mother was an immigrant from Romania to Hungary (although ethnically Hungarian). You just can’t trust us peripatetic types. Oh sorry ! I didn’t realise that you were only "identifying " with Brits, well thats alright then . Personally I identify with Shamanistic Buddhists, did I tell you about my chat with the Dalai Lama ? I didn’t really have a chat with him, I was just identifying with someone who had. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2012, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doj-sues-sheriff-arpaio-for-civil-rights-abuses-anyone-care-to-take-arpaios-side-here/621726/196 "2012-05-16T16:03:37Z")
Enough already, **Lust4Life**. Your last couple of posts have been flaming, and that’s OK in the Pit but not here. When you’re in GD, stick to making actual arguments and don’t attack other posters. ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2012, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doj-sues-sheriff-arpaio-for-civil-rights-abuses-anyone-care-to-take-arpaios-side-here/621726/197 "2012-05-16T16:08:03Z")
> [@Lust4Life](#): > > But they are useful if I ask him about it and then ask him the relevant regulation or procedural number designation etc. It seems to me that, instead of protesting angrily, you could have left it at that at the beginning of this side discussion. As you (up to this point) had not given any indication you intended to produce an authoritative cite, it’s not really on us to assume you were planning to. ---
**Author:** ![Stanislaus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stanislaus/32/3391_2.png) [@Stanislaus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stanislaus)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2012, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doj-sues-sheriff-arpaio-for-civil-rights-abuses-anyone-care-to-take-arpaios-side-here/621726/198 "2012-05-16T16:18:39Z")
Oh, for crying out loud. [From the Home Office](http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/publications/police/operational-policing/pace-codes/pace-code-a-2011?view=Binary): > [@The Home Office](#): > > “CODE OF PRACTICE FOR THE EXERCISE BY: > POLICE OFFICERS OF STATUTORY POWERS OF STOP AND SEARCH > POLICE OFFICERS AND POLICE STAFF OF REQUIREMENTS TO RECORD PUBLIC ENCOUNTERS” So this is the guidelines issued to police in regard to how they carry out stop and search, with reference to their duty to record ethnicity among other things. Here are the relevant paragraphs: > [@The Home Office](#): > > 4.12 There is **no national requirement for an officer who requests a person in a public place to account for themselves** , i.e. their actions, behaviour, presence in an area or possession of anything,\*\* to make any record of the encounter\*\* or to give the person a receipt > 5 Monitoring and supervising the use of stop and search powers > 5.1 Supervising officers must monitor the use of stop and search powers and should **consider in particular whether there is any evidence that they are being exercised on the basis of stereotyped images or inappropriate generalisations**. Supervising officers should satisfy themselves that the practice of officers under their supervision in stopping, searching and recording is fully in accordance with this Code. Supervisors must also examine whether the records **reveal any trends or patterns which give cause for concern** , and if so take appropriate action to address this. > 5.2 Senior officers with area or force-wide responsibilities must also monitor the broader use of stop and search powers and, where necessary, take action at the relevant level. > 5.3 Supervision and monitoring must be supported by the compilation of comprehensive statistical records of stops and searches at force, area and local level. **Any apparently disproportionate use of the powers by particular officers or groups of officers or in relation to specific sections of the community should be identified and investigated.** > 5.4 In order to promote public confidence in the use of the powers, forces in consultation with police authorities must make arrangements for the records to be scrutinised by representatives of the community, and to explain the use of the powers at a local level Bolding is mine. **Lust4Life** ’s original claim was: > [@Lust4Life](#): > > In the U.K. the police are regulated so as to record everyone that they pull over in the street for randoming questioning, and they have to ensure that the same number of ethnicities are questioned as well to ensure no racial bias. Para 4.12 above shows that the first part of this is false: police do not have to record everyone they speak to in the street. They do have to record everyone they search. Para 5.1 and 5.3 above show that the second part of **Lust4Life** ’s claim is also false: the police have to monitor their stats so that they - and we - can be sure that where people of any ethnicity are being **dis** proportionately subjected to Stop and Search then this has been done with good reason - but there is absolutely no requirement to keep the numbers even across all ethnicities. At any rate, L4L can now refer to the appropriate regulations when asking his mate. Or, we could drop this hijack. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2012, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doj-sues-sheriff-arpaio-for-civil-rights-abuses-anyone-care-to-take-arpaios-side-here/621726/199 "2012-05-16T16:47:34Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Or how about we raise wages to a point where Americans find them attractive? How un-American! ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2012, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doj-sues-sheriff-arpaio-for-civil-rights-abuses-anyone-care-to-take-arpaios-side-here/621726/200 "2012-05-16T16:49:44Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Most Latinos in the Miami-Dade County area aren’t Mexican. > > They’re far more likely to be Cuban, Puerto Rican, Columbian or something else. I know. But, the ones in the southern part of the county, where a lot of farming happens, are mostly Mexican, IME. (In Miami-Dade County, BTW, all county government publications are printed in English, Spanish, and Haitian Creole – there’s a lot of Haitians there, too.) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doj-sues-sheriff-arpaio-for-civil-rights-abuses-anyone-care-to-take-arpaios-side-here/621726.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doj-sues-sheriff-arpaio-for-civil-rights-abuses-anyone-care-to-take-arpaios-side-here/621726.md?page=11)