# DoJ sues Sheriff Arpaio for civil-rights abuses; anyone care to take Arpaio's side here? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 12, 2012, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doj-sues-sheriff-arpaio-for-civil-rights-abuses-anyone-care-to-take-arpaios-side-here/621726 "2012-05-12T20:42:13Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2012, 5:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doj-sues-sheriff-arpaio-for-civil-rights-abuses-anyone-care-to-take-arpaios-side-here/621726/21 "2012-05-13T05:30:56Z")
Let me clarify my earlier point about constitutional protection and illegal immigrants. I don’t think that anyone thinks people in the U.S. legal or illegal don’t deserve constitutional protection, but that’s not the issue. The issue is illegal immigrants receiving the same constitutional “rights and priviledges” as American citizens. Remember we were talking about a state that claims illegal immigrants don’t have the same right to travel as people here legally. This is a state that are not given the funds from the Feds that they are legally entitled to for incarcerating illegal immigrants while simultaneously being told not to enforce Federal law on illegal immigration. So when we talk about the Constitutional rights of illegal immigrants, are we talking about the same rights everyone in the US gets OR the same rights as American citizens because they are not the same thing and Arizona (justifiably) that the Feds mean the latter and not the former. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2012, 6:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doj-sues-sheriff-arpaio-for-civil-rights-abuses-anyone-care-to-take-arpaios-side-here/621726/22 "2012-05-13T06:02:46Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > Let me clarify my earlier point about constitutional protection and illegal immigrants. I don’t think that anyone thinks people in the U.S. legal or illegal don’t deserve constitutional protection, but that’s not the issue. The issue is illegal immigrants receiving the same constitutional “rights and priviledges” as American citizens. Remember we were talking about a state that claims illegal immigrants don’t have the same right to travel as people here legally. This is a state that are not given the funds from the Feds that they are legally entitled to for incarcerating illegal immigrants while simultaneously being told not to enforce Federal law on illegal immigration. So when we talk about the Constitutional rights of illegal immigrants, are we talking about the same rights everyone in the US gets OR the same rights as American citizens because they are not the same thing and Arizona (justifiably) that the Feds mean the latter and not the former. I’ve never studied or practiced immigration law, but my understanding is that citizens have, broadly speaking, only two sets of rights/privileges noncitizens have not: The right to vote and hold public office; and the right to reside and work on U.S. soil. Anything else applies equally to the guy who snuck over the border just to do a murder. ---
**Author:** ![Mosier](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ea924/32.png) [@Mosier](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mosier)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2012, 1:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doj-sues-sheriff-arpaio-for-civil-rights-abuses-anyone-care-to-take-arpaios-side-here/621726/23 "2012-05-13T13:22:22Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Yes. and the people he serves think he is an asset, as well. So overall you think sheriff Joe is doing a good job, and the lawsuit is probably wrong? Do you have any reservations about the guy at all, or do you pretty much agree with his publicly stated positions and actions across the board? ---
**Author:** ![Laudenum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7993a0/32.png) [@Laudenum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Laudenum)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2012, 1:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doj-sues-sheriff-arpaio-for-civil-rights-abuses-anyone-care-to-take-arpaios-side-here/621726/24 "2012-05-13T13:27:27Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > No, it **shouldn’t.** In fact, however, you know as well as I do that if the illegal-immigration pressure were coming from Canada instead of Mexico, the Minutemen would not exist, and you never would have heard of any Arpaio-analogue in any border county of North Dakota. I don’t think that’s a fair comparison. Canada is a wealthy nation so those coming would probably be a far lesser drain on resources than the average Mexican. Furthermore their education levels would be better so the effect would be spread out over a wider range of jobs. There is also the possibility that jobs in Canada could go to Americans balancing the books a little. Also Canadians speak English so there would not be the same feelings of invasion. In Ireland there was actually a degree of racism against the eastern Europeans, even though most Americans would classify the Irish and the poles as the same race - people will object to any perception that their jobs are being taken or their culture is being diminished, even if those others are ‘white’. ---
**Author:** ![What\_the](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f4b2a3/32.png) [@What\_the](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_the)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2012, 1:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doj-sues-sheriff-arpaio-for-civil-rights-abuses-anyone-care-to-take-arpaios-side-here/621726/25 "2012-05-13T13:28:57Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Yes, well, Strom Thurmond or Jesse Helms might have claimed the same. Don’t forget the lady from Watts. I can never remember her name. At least this time I didn’t refer to her race or skin color in any way. ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2012, 1:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doj-sues-sheriff-arpaio-for-civil-rights-abuses-anyone-care-to-take-arpaios-side-here/621726/26 "2012-05-13T13:31:57Z")
I should, I suppose, point out that the statements about arresting people who didn’t agree with him _have_ been proven to be true in a court of law, and the lawyer who prosecuted and his associates have been disbarred for this. It’s actually somewhat worse than the charges indicate. In one especially special case, the man chosen to serve the papers was someone who had threatened the judge the papers were being served on enough that the judge got police protection from the man. The charges were unfounded, but the prosecutor had the judge’s reaction filmed, and used it in a… was it a press release? ---
**Author:** ![gamerunknown](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/6bbea6/32.png) [@gamerunknown](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gamerunknown)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2012, 1:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doj-sues-sheriff-arpaio-for-civil-rights-abuses-anyone-care-to-take-arpaios-side-here/621726/27 "2012-05-13T13:45:13Z")
> [@Laudenum](#): > > Canada is a wealthy nation so those coming would probably be a far lesser drain on resources than the average Mexican. This is a bizarre notion. If low socioeconomic status individuals are a burden on the economy, then why do high socioeconomic status individuals continue to employ them? Has the notion that job creators provide employment as a form of clemency really sept through into the public unconscious? ---
**Author:** ![What\_the](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f4b2a3/32.png) [@What\_the](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_the)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2012, 1:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doj-sues-sheriff-arpaio-for-civil-rights-abuses-anyone-care-to-take-arpaios-side-here/621726/28 "2012-05-13T13:46:28Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > I’ve never studied or practiced immigration law, but my understanding is that citizens have, broadly speaking, only two sets of rights/privileges noncitizens have not: The right to vote and hold public office; and the right to reside and work on U.S. soil. Anything else applies equally to the guy who snuck over the border just to do a murder. Is it acceptable for someone to think that maybe things should not be that way? Can you imagine that someone would, while still wanting law enforcement to abide by the law, think that some laws are more important than others? Murder is probably more important than getting your feelings hurt for example. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2012, 1:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doj-sues-sheriff-arpaio-for-civil-rights-abuses-anyone-care-to-take-arpaios-side-here/621726/29 "2012-05-13T13:47:01Z")
> [@Laudenum](#): > > I don’t think that’s a fair comparison. > Canada is a wealthy nation so those coming would probably be a far lesser drain on resources than the average Mexican. Furthermore their education levels would be better so the effect would be spread out over a wider range of jobs. There is also the possibility that jobs in Canada could go to Americans balancing the books a little. > Also Canadians speak English so there would not be the same feelings of invasion. > > In Ireland there was actually a degree of racism against the eastern Europeans, even though most Americans would classify the Irish and the poles as the same race - people will object to any perception that their jobs are being taken or their culture is being diminished, even if those others are ‘white’. Anti-immigration people make a big deal about the law being the law. It doesn’t matter that Canada is a wealthy nation. If people are breaking the law, they are breaking the law and need to be deported. I’d actually be more concerned about a middle-class, educated illegal alien “stealing” jobs than a poor guy who’s intent on picking tomatoes and cleaning houses and just generally flying beneath the economic radar. Most Americans are not picking tomatoes or cleaning houses. They are looking for middle-class, “educated” jobs…those jobs that a clean-cut, English-speaking Canadian could snatch up easily. They can’t complain about Mexicans stealing jobs they don’t even want while not being the least bit worried about the jobs they DO want being “stolen” by the international students they went to college with. The thing is that there are significant number of clean-cut, English-speaking illegal immigrants swimming around. Not just from Canada, but from other places–all hoping that no one finds out that they’ve overstayed their visas. It would be interesting to see how many non-Hispanic illegal aliens have gotten swept up in Arizona and whether this percentage is representative of their numbers in the general population. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2012, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doj-sues-sheriff-arpaio-for-civil-rights-abuses-anyone-care-to-take-arpaios-side-here/621726/30 "2012-05-13T14:33:56Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Well, if it’s as you describe, I’d say the only defense is that whoever wrote the report is insane. It seems to be a blatant lie. My guess is that there are some individual instances where the cops acted inappropriately,and even illegally. I’m sure that happens in just about any large place department. And when it does, I’m all for punishing the individuals to the fullest extent of the law. And then some. But what I think is happening here is that they’re taking every possible situation which maybe could be construed as inappropriate behavior and broad brushing all of them with “racist!”. And it’s all based on people’s disagreement with Arizona’s law and Arpaio’s tough stance on crime and his being tasked to use the law as a tool to help address Maricopa County’s illegal immigrant problem. > > It’s not really a _legal_ problem, it’s a _philosophical_ difference. and his opponents are using the law to bludgeon him. Damn lawyers. 😉 Well, this seems to be a question of fact, then. One or two individual instances? Sure, if that’s all there are, it will look like you’re right. But the complain alleges a pattern of hundreds, if not thousands, of individual cases. If plaintiff DOJ can prove that… then? ---
**Author:** ![ralph124c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8797f3/32.png) [@ralph124c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ralph124c)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2012, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doj-sues-sheriff-arpaio-for-civil-rights-abuses-anyone-care-to-take-arpaios-side-here/621726/31 "2012-05-13T15:33:24Z")
Sheriff Arpaio may not be a likeable guy. But he has done nothing but enforce the “Secure Communities” Program ([Latino | Fox News](http://latino.foxnews.com/latino/politics/2012/05/11/massachusetts-activists-hold-protests-against-controversial-secure-communities/))- that Congress and Obama authorized. Exactly how is he breaking any laws? Illegal aliens are that-illegal, and are subject to deportation. Moreover, what about the rights of American citizens? You can criticize Arpaio for many things, but he is enforcing the law as it is written. And, BTW, AG Eric Holder still hasn’t admitted his role in “Operation Fast and Furious”-in which 2000 odd automatic weapons were given to Mexican criminals-these guns were later used in many murders, including one of a US Border Patrol officer. Holder “can’t remember”…so I guess its OK. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2012, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doj-sues-sheriff-arpaio-for-civil-rights-abuses-anyone-care-to-take-arpaios-side-here/621726/32 "2012-05-13T16:08:07Z")
> [@ralph124c](#): > > Sheriff Arpaio may not be a likeable guy. > But he has done nothing but enforce the “Secure Communities” Program ([Latino News | Fox News](http://latino.foxnews.com/latino/politics/2012/05/11/massachusetts-activists-hold-protests-against-controversial-secure-communities/))- > that Congress and Obama authorized. > Exactly how is he breaking any laws? Illegal aliens are that-illegal, and are subject to deportation. Moreover, what about the rights of American citizens? > You can criticize Arpaio for many things, but he is enforcing the law as it is written. > And, BTW, AG Eric Holder still hasn’t admitted his role in “Operation Fast and Furious”-in which 2000 odd automatic weapons were given to Mexican criminals-these guns were later used in many murders, including one of a US Border Patrol officer. > Holder “can’t remember”..so I guess its OK. So, you ignore the negative stuff Arpaio did, declare unilaterally that he’s guilty of nothing but upholding the law, make an emotional appeal for the poor, oppressed American citizens that are being abused by Big Immigrant™ and then randomly Gish-Gallop onto another completely unrelated issue, which you mis-characterize, presumably because you get your information from biased news sources that lie to you. Sounds about right. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2012, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doj-sues-sheriff-arpaio-for-civil-rights-abuses-anyone-care-to-take-arpaios-side-here/621726/33 "2012-05-13T18:56:42Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Not following you. Debate what exactly? The issue in “philosophical terms.” Or a better word would be “political.” As distinct from “legal.” ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2012, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doj-sues-sheriff-arpaio-for-civil-rights-abuses-anyone-care-to-take-arpaios-side-here/621726/34 "2012-05-13T19:01:07Z")
> [@Laudenum](#): > > I don’t think that’s a fair comparison. > Canada is a wealthy nation so those coming would probably be a far lesser drain on resources than the average Mexican. Furthermore their education levels would be better so the effect would be spread out over a wider range of jobs. There is also the possibility that jobs in Canada could go to Americans balancing the books a little. :rolleyes: The “illegal immigration pressure” hypothetical assumes none of that is true, **of course,** but it also assumes most Canadians remain white. > [@Laudenum](#): > > In Ireland there was actually a degree of racism against the eastern Europeans, even though most Americans would classify the Irish and the poles as the same race - people will object to any perception that their jobs are being taken or their culture is being diminished, even if those others are ‘white’. No doubt. But, racial conciousness in America is **different.** At least, it is ever since [the Irish became white.](http://www.amazon.com/Irish-Became-White-Noel-Ignatiev/dp/0415918251) ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2012, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doj-sues-sheriff-arpaio-for-civil-rights-abuses-anyone-care-to-take-arpaios-side-here/621726/35 "2012-05-13T19:02:12Z")
> [@What\_the](#): > > Don’t forget the lady from Watts. I can never remember her name. At least this time I didn’t refer to her race or skin color in any way. I don’t remember her either. Therefore, I doubt her existence. Cite? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2012, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doj-sues-sheriff-arpaio-for-civil-rights-abuses-anyone-care-to-take-arpaios-side-here/621726/36 "2012-05-13T19:03:21Z")
> [@E-Sabbath](#): > > I should, I suppose, point out that the statements about arresting people who didn’t agree with him _have_ been proven to be true in a court of law, and the lawyer who prosecuted and his associates have been disbarred for this. > > It’s actually somewhat worse than the charges indicate. In one especially special case, the man chosen to serve the papers was someone who had threatened the judge the papers were being served on enough that the judge got police protection from the man. The charges were unfounded, but the prosecutor had the judge’s reaction filmed, and used it in a… was it a press release? I did not know any of this. Cites, please? (No snark, we **need** such cites in this thread.) ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2012, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doj-sues-sheriff-arpaio-for-civil-rights-abuses-anyone-care-to-take-arpaios-side-here/621726/37 "2012-05-13T19:04:53Z")
> [@What\_the](#): > > Is it acceptable for someone to think that maybe things should not be that way? It is certainly acceptable for a Doper to so **argue** here. Do so if you can. > [@What\_the](#): > > Can you imagine that someone would, while still wanting law enforcement to abide by the law, think that some laws are more important than others? Murder is probably more important than getting your feelings hurt for example. But it would have to be more of an “argument” and more relevant than that. Certainly the law against murder is more important than that against border-crossing, which the actual law reflects in classifying the former as a felony and the latter as a misdemeanor. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2012, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doj-sues-sheriff-arpaio-for-civil-rights-abuses-anyone-care-to-take-arpaios-side-here/621726/38 "2012-05-13T19:17:05Z")
> [@ralph124c](#): > > Sheriff Arpaio may not be a likeable guy. > But he has done nothing but enforce the “Secure Communities” Program ([Latino News | Fox News](http://latino.foxnews.com/latino/politics/2012/05/11/massachusetts-activists-hold-protests-against-controversial-secure-communities/))- > that Congress and Obama authorized. > Exactly how is he breaking any laws? Apparently he **has** done **something** more than enforce the [Secure Communities](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secure_Communities_and_administrative_immigration_policies) program, which does not authorize, e.g., [this](http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/05/10/justice-department-joe-arpaio-lawsuit_n_1507098.html?ref=politics) sort of shit: > [@](#): > > **Officers Mistreat Latinos In Routine Traffic Enforcement** > > The lawsuit recounts how a Latina woman who was five-months pregnant and a U.S. citizen was stopped as she pulled into the driveway. “After she exited her car, the officer then insisted that she sit on the hood of the car. When she refused, the officer grabbed her arms, puled them behind her back, and slammed her, stomach first, into the vehicle three times. He then dragged her to the patrol car and shoved her into the backseat,” reads the complaint. > > She was cited for failure to provide identification, which was later changed to failure to provide proof of insurance. The issue was resolved when the woman proved she had insurance to a court. > > In yet another case, two officers followed a Latina U.S. citizen a quarter of a mile to her home without flashing their lights. When she arrived home, they insisted that she stay in the car. The reason for the stop was a “non-functioning license plate light.” After she tried to enter her home, officers took her to the ground, kneed her in the back and handcuffed her. She was brought to a Maricopa County Sheriff’s Office (MCSO) substation and cited for “disorderly conduct,” which was later dismissed, according to the lawsuit. Or this: > [@](#): > > **Arpaio And MCSO Staff Foster Discrimination Against Latinos** > > Arpaio received a letter reading, “If you have dark skin, then you have dark skin. Unfortunately, that is the look of the Mexican illegals who are here illegally. … I’m begging you to come over … and round them all up.” The sheriff labeled this as “intelligence” and forwarded to his deputy chief of enforcement operations for someone to “handle this.” > > Upon receiving a letter backing the policy of “stopping Mexicans to make sure they are legal,” he sent a letter of appreciation to the authors and kept three copies for himself, according to the lawsuit. > > An email circulated among MCSO staff had an image of a fake driver’s license from “Mexifornia” and listed the driver’s class as “illegal alien.” Or this: > [@](#): > > **MCSO Arrests Arpaio Critics Expressing Their First Amendment Rights** > > The suit claims on multiple occasions that people were arrested for merely applauding against the office’s immigration policies. The judge presiding over the case of the arrestees found that the deputy who made the arrest “believes it is his role to make uncomfortable anyone who express[es] views that disagree with the sheriff” and that he had “trampled” over the First Amendment. The court acquitted them. > [@ralph124c](#): > > Moreover, what about the rights of American citizens? Arpaio has been violating those too; see above, and the OP. > [@ralph124c](#): > > You can criticize Arpaio for many things, but he is enforcing the law as it is written. Not if any of these allegations are true, he ain’t. > [@ralph124c](#): > > And, BTW, AG Eric Holder still hasn’t admitted his role in “Operation Fast and Furious”-in which 2000 odd automatic weapons were given to Mexican criminals-these guns were later used in many murders, including one of a US Border Patrol officer. Holder “can’t remember”..so I guess its OK. What’s that got to do with this? Do two wrongs make a right? ---
**Author:** ![zpepelepu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/d26b3c/32.png) [@zpepelepu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zpepelepu)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2012, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doj-sues-sheriff-arpaio-for-civil-rights-abuses-anyone-care-to-take-arpaios-side-here/621726/39 "2012-05-13T22:24:35Z")
It’s hogwash. Arpaio attempts to uphold/enforce the law. Mistakes are made as with anything in this life. My two cents. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2012, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doj-sues-sheriff-arpaio-for-civil-rights-abuses-anyone-care-to-take-arpaios-side-here/621726/40 "2012-05-13T22:39:31Z")
> [@zpepelepu](#): > > It’s hogwash. > Arpaio attempts to uphold/enforce the law. > Mistakes are made as with anything in this life. > My two cents. :rolleyes: And you call yourself a Mexican lover! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doj-sues-sheriff-arpaio-for-civil-rights-abuses-anyone-care-to-take-arpaios-side-here/621726.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doj-sues-sheriff-arpaio-for-civil-rights-abuses-anyone-care-to-take-arpaios-side-here/621726.md?page=3)