# DoJ sues Sheriff Arpaio for civil-rights abuses; anyone care to take Arpaio's side here? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 12, 2012, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doj-sues-sheriff-arpaio-for-civil-rights-abuses-anyone-care-to-take-arpaios-side-here/621726 "2012-05-12T20:42:13Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tao_s_Revenge)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2012, 4:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doj-sues-sheriff-arpaio-for-civil-rights-abuses-anyone-care-to-take-arpaios-side-here/621726/141 "2012-05-15T04:58:58Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Since there was no pregnant woman involved in the case he was referring to, I’d say you missed the “effen head” of the nail by about a mile. Oh I did get them mixed. The pregnant woman, per the cite quote: " The lawsuit recounts how a Latina woman who was five-months pregnant and a U.S. citizen was stopped as she pulled into the driveway. “After she exited her car, the officer then insisted that she sit on the hood of the car. When she refused, the officer grabbed her arms, puled them behind her back, and slammed her, stomach first, into the vehicle three times”. He slammed her on the car stomach first three times. Pregnant woman, slammed on the car stomach first three times. Let that sink in. Her crime: failure to have ID or insurance. The cops couldn’t get their story straight on what she did wrong. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2012, 4:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doj-sues-sheriff-arpaio-for-civil-rights-abuses-anyone-care-to-take-arpaios-side-here/621726/142 "2012-05-15T04:59:59Z")
> [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](#): > > Oh I did get them mixed. The pregnant woman, per the cite quote: " > The lawsuit recounts how a Latina woman who was five-months pregnant and a U.S. citizen was stopped as she pulled into the driveway. “After she exited her car, the officer then insisted that she sit on the hood of the car. When she refused, the officer grabbed her arms, puled them behind her back, and slammed her, stomach first, into the vehicle three times”. > > He slammed her on the car stomach first three times. Pregnant woman, slammed on the car stomach first three times. Let that sink in. Her crime: failure to have ID or insurance. The cops couldn’t get their story straight on what she did wrong. Suspicion of intention to breed? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2012, 1:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doj-sues-sheriff-arpaio-for-civil-rights-abuses-anyone-care-to-take-arpaios-side-here/621726/143 "2012-05-15T13:50:13Z")
> [@bouv](#): > > There’s the case of [Marcia Powell.](http://blogs.phoenixnewtimes.com/bastard/2010/09/marcia_powells_death_unavenged.php) She died from heat stroke after being left in a metal box in the Arizona heat for four hours. The temperature that day reached 107…God only knows how hot it was in that “cage.” Policy was to limit inmates to “only” two hours in there, but I can’t see how any sane, rational person can see that as anything but cruel and unusual punishment. Especially when you consider she wasn’t serving time for murder, assault, or any kind of violent crime…it was prostitution. Sickening. Again, since this question seems to have gotten lost – what does this have to do with Sheriff Arapio? ---
**Author:** ![dngnb8](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/977dab/32.png) [@dngnb8](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dngnb8)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2012, 1:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doj-sues-sheriff-arpaio-for-civil-rights-abuses-anyone-care-to-take-arpaios-side-here/621726/144 "2012-05-15T13:56:01Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > [25.8% of Arizonans are of Mexican ancestry.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Arizona) That is also statistics. Any brown face you see there is more likely than not a native-born citizen’s. So you know the ratio of legal to illegal here? Cite please. ---
**Author:** ![dngnb8](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/977dab/32.png) [@dngnb8](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dngnb8)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2012, 2:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doj-sues-sheriff-arpaio-for-civil-rights-abuses-anyone-care-to-take-arpaios-side-here/621726/145 "2012-05-15T14:03:25Z")
Heck I will do it > **[United States Immigration: Green Card, Visas and U.S. Citizenship](https://www.usimmigrationsupport.org/)** > > Comprehensive info about United States immigration. Online applications for Green Card, US visas, citizenship. Download U.S. Immigration Forms of the 6.9 mil, you say 26% is Hispanic, that is 1,794,000 According to the link, 490,000 illegal immigrants reside in AZ. 27% That means 1 out of 4 of those people are probably illegal Additionally, 19% of our felonious crimes are from Illegals. How about social service costs? AZs budget is hugely impacted by the costs of illegal immigration. You will find many of the hispanic culture support Joe because they are tired of the bigotry they get because of Illegals. Additionally, many resent illegals for not going through what they went through to get citizenship. At the risk of a pun, the issue isnt black and white ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2012, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doj-sues-sheriff-arpaio-for-civil-rights-abuses-anyone-care-to-take-arpaios-side-here/621726/146 "2012-05-15T15:41:05Z")
> [@dngnb8](#): > > Heck I will do it > > [U.S. Immigration Support: Private ESTA Processing Agency](http://www.usimmigrationsupport.org/arizona.html) > > of the 6.9 mil, you say 26% is Hispanic, that is 1,794,000 > > According to the link, 490,000 illegal immigrants reside in AZ. > > 27% > > That means 1 out of 4 of those people are probably illegal Not really. Your link shows FAIR, (a group notably hostile to all immigration that uses illegal immigration as a red flag to call attention to themslves and occasionally wanders away from facts), claims 490,000, but the USCIS/DHS, (the government immigration folks), only estimate 280,000–a very large number, but much smaller than your claim. So, 27% is now down to 15% and you are claiming that it is fine for cops to detain anyone with a certain appearance, based solely on their appearance, on the off chance that one in six of them might be an illegal alien. That should do wonderful things to encourage the 1,514,000 citizens who are being targeted for harrassment to support the police and other governmental agencies. (And that is not even including the 286,000 Indians who are not recorded as Hispanic in the census, but are probably treated as Hispanic by the typical white guy witha badge.) ---
**Author:** ![bouv](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/bc8723/32.png) [@bouv](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bouv)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2012, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doj-sues-sheriff-arpaio-for-civil-rights-abuses-anyone-care-to-take-arpaios-side-here/621726/147 "2012-05-15T15:49:34Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > What does this have to do with Arapio? Opps, I though the story took place in the Maricopa County Jail, but it seems it was the state prison that just happens to be in Maricopa County. You’re right, the Sheriff’s Office has nothing to do with that prison or this incident. I apologize for the mistake. > [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Sorry, “LE”? Law Enforcement. > [@Terr](#): > > But it is a tough and very dangerous job and unfortunately [many cops die while doing it](https://www.google.com/#hl=en&sclient=psy-ab&q=police+officer+shot+traffic+stop&oq=police+officer+shot+traffic+stop&aq=f&aqi=g1g-bK2g-q1&aql=&gs_l=hp.3..0j0i8i30l2j0i22.345.4933.0.5164.32.25.0.5.5.2.562.7097.0j6j9j7j2j1.25.0...0.0.pymJrh5bXx4&pbx=1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_cp.r_qf.,cf.osb&fp=3bab4e5a695f4992&biw=960&bih=525). Yeah, real dangerous…right behind truck and taxi drivers, commercial fisherman, loggers, roofers/construction workers, miners, aircraft pilots, farmers, steel workers, industrial maintenance workers, and garbage-men. The average rate of “on the job” death for men in the US (I’m using men since law enforcement personnel are overwhelmingly male,) is 6.9 per 100,000…police have a rate of 16.9 per 100,000. Almost half of those deaths are the result of traffic fatalities (however, it’s hard to find data on whether or not they were traffic fatalities that occurred from routine patrolling, or in some sort of pursuit of a suspect.) So while it certainly is more dangerous than most jobs, it’s not nearly as dangerous as the cops would want us to think. And they use that perceived, heightened danger to get larger SWAT teams, assault rifles, and military-grade equipment that, quite frankly, most of them are not properly trained to use. [And since this thread IS about Sheriff Joe and his department, I’ll use them as an example.](http://www.phoenixnewtimes.com/2004-08-05/news/dog-day-afternoon/full) > [@](#): > > The most prudent, cautious and least costly way to pick up Kush would have involved only a handful of officers. That wouldn’t have been anywhere near as much fun as whipping out the big assault rifles and putting on all that manly body armor. > > And MCSO wouldn’t get to deploy Arpaio’s beloved armored personnel carrier if they opted for the low-key approach to community policing. Lucky the damn tank didn’t run over some kids playing in the street! > . > . > . > The armored personnel carrier was pulled back from the house as the fire raged. But a deputy apparently failed to set the brakes on the heavy vehicle and it began rolling down a hill and smashed into a parked car. If you don’t want to read the whole thing: A man’s house was burnt to the ground by the MCSO, the APC ran into a parked car because the deputy didn’t know how to properly operate it, and the suspects dog was killed by the MCSO. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2012, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doj-sues-sheriff-arpaio-for-civil-rights-abuses-anyone-care-to-take-arpaios-side-here/621726/148 "2012-05-15T15:51:48Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > Not really. Your link shows FAIR, (a group notably hostile to all immigration that uses illegal immigration as a red flag to call attention to themslves and occasionally wanders away from facts), claims 490,000, but the USCIS/DHS, (the government immigration folks), only estimate 280,000–a very large number, but much smaller than your claim. The US Census Bureau estimates 460K in 2009. [http://www.usnews.com/news/articles/2010/07/08/government-data-show-fewer-illegal-immigrants](http://www.usnews.com/news/articles/2010/07/08/government-data-show-fewer-illegal-immigrants) That’s a drop from estimated 560K in 2008. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2012, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doj-sues-sheriff-arpaio-for-civil-rights-abuses-anyone-care-to-take-arpaios-side-here/621726/149 "2012-05-15T16:04:38Z")
> [@dngnb8](#): > > AZs budget is hugely impacted by the costs of illegal immigration. Cite? We’ve done this before and I’ll post it again. Illegal immigrants are a net benefit to the US. However, they are a net drag on a few states such as California (mainly via costs associated with education of their children). Illegal immigrants DO pay taxes. Thing is they cannot get many of the benefits (such as Social Security) that paying taxes gets a US citizen. So, they put money in and do not take it out. I am not sure how Arizona rates in this and it would not surprise me that Arizona is among the ones that loses money overall. Still, can you cite the _net_ effect to the Arizona economy? > [@](#): > > Over the past two decades, most efforts to estimate the fiscal impact of immigration in the United States have concluded that, in aggregate and over the long term, tax revenues of all types generated by immigrants—both legal and unauthorized—exceed the cost of the services they use.1, 2 Generally, such estimates include revenues and spending at the federal, state, and local levels.3 However, many estimates also show that the cost of providing public services to unauthorized immigrants at the state and local levels exceeds what that population pays in state and local taxes. It is important to note, though, that currently available estimates have significant limitations; therefore, using them to determine an aggregate effect across all states would be difficult and prone to considerable error. > > SOURCE: [The Impact of Unauthorized Immigrants on the Budgets of State and Local Governments – Congressional Budget Office](http://www.cbo.gov/sites/default/files/cbofiles/ftpdocs/87xx/doc8711/12-6-immigration.pdf) (PDF - page 9) You also have a very real negative impact on some industries when cracking down on illegal immigrants. From a recent NYT article: > [@](#): > > **Some Ala. Farmers Cut Back Crops, Citing Crackdown** > > Some Alabama farmers say they are planting less produce rather than risk having tomatoes and other crops rot in the fields a second straight year because of labor shortages linked to the state’s crackdown on illegal immigration. > > Keith Dickie said he and other growers in the heart of Alabama’s tomato country didn’t have any choice but to reduce acreage amid fears there won’t be enough workers to pick the delicate fruit. > > Some farmers lacked enough hands to harvest crops because immigrants fled the state after Gov. Robert Bentley signed the immigration law last fall, and some told The Associated Press they fear the same thing could happen this year. > > SOURCE: [http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/2012/05/13/us/ap-us-alabama-immigration-law-farmers.html?\_r=2&ref=news](http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/2012/05/13/us/ap-us-alabama-immigration-law-farmers.html?_r=2&ref=news) > [@dngnb8](#): > > You will find many of the hispanic culture support Joe because they are tired of the bigotry they get because of Illegals. Additionally, many resent illegals for not going through what they went through to get citizenship. This reminds me of the old joke that the definition of an environmentalist is someone who already has a house in the woods. ---
**Author:** ![dngnb8](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/977dab/32.png) [@dngnb8](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dngnb8)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2012, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doj-sues-sheriff-arpaio-for-civil-rights-abuses-anyone-care-to-take-arpaios-side-here/621726/150 "2012-05-15T16:41:22Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > Cite? > > We’ve done this before and I’ll post it again. > > Illegal immigrants are a net benefit to the US. However, they are a net drag on a few states such as California (mainly via costs associated with education of their children). I already linked the cite > [@](#): > > Illegal immigrants DO pay taxes. Thing is they cannot get many of the benefits (such as Social Security) that paying taxes gets a US citizen. So, they put money in and do not take it out. Not wholly true. Many of our illegals dont pay income taxes. They do pay into SS, but many of those SS are through Identity Theft. Give you a guess who is among the leaders the nation in ID Theft. > [@](#): > > I am not sure how Arizona rates in this and it would not surprise me that Arizona is among the ones that loses money overall. Still, can you cite the _net_ effect to the Arizona economy? The link addresses it a bit but here is a snip \:According to the Arizona Hospital and Healthcare association, providing care to illegal immigrants costs Arizona hospitals approximately $150 million annually. At least one hospital in Arizona has filed for bankruptcy and is in danger of closing due to uncompensated care for undocumented immigrants. As a solution to the millions of dollars these facilities are uncompensated for hospital administrators of the University Medical Center in Tucson Arizona, are reporting uninsured immigrants who do not pay their medical bills to immigration officials. In one four-month period in 2003, UMC incurred $3.3 million in immigrants’ unpaid bills. At least three Arizona hospitals are sending bill collectors into Mexico to try to obtain payments.\ > [@](#): > > You also have a very real negative impact on some industries when cracking down on illegal immigrants I agree here. Many here say without this workforce, the employers would have to pay residents, and raise their rates. This would grossly increase the cost of what they sell (Believe it or not, we have a decent farming community here). Frankly, the lazy American wont work in the fields because the work is far too difficult physically. ---
**Author:** ![dngnb8](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/977dab/32.png) [@dngnb8](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dngnb8)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2012, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doj-sues-sheriff-arpaio-for-civil-rights-abuses-anyone-care-to-take-arpaios-side-here/621726/151 "2012-05-15T16:45:43Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > This reminds me of the old joke that the definition of an environmentalist is someone who already has a house in the woods. There was a planned community built north of phx in the middle of the desert. There were people who have acreage just north of that planned community that argued against it because “It would ruin the natural environment” They sure didnt care when they spoiled the natural environment when they built there. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2012, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doj-sues-sheriff-arpaio-for-civil-rights-abuses-anyone-care-to-take-arpaios-side-here/621726/152 "2012-05-15T16:53:48Z")
> [@dngnb8](#): > > I already linked the cite You said: “AZs budget is hugely impacted by the costs of illegal immigration.” I have not seen the numbers that support that. Yes, you cited costs to hospitals. No one is denying that illegal immigrants on one hand are a drain on state resources. On the other hand they add to state resources. The question is how it all balances out. Some of that are in intangibles such as the cost increases everyone will pay if farmers cannot harvest their crops. My cite (and other studies) show that illegal immigrants are a net benefit to the US economy as a whole. Some states however shoulder more of a burden (California in particular but willing to bet Arizona is in there too). The question is how does it all pan out? Is AZ’s budget “hugely impacted” or marginally impacted when all revenue and costs are accounted for? ---
**Author:** ![dngnb8](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/977dab/32.png) [@dngnb8](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dngnb8)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2012, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doj-sues-sheriff-arpaio-for-civil-rights-abuses-anyone-care-to-take-arpaios-side-here/621726/153 "2012-05-15T16:56:06Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > Not really. Your link shows FAIR, (a group notably hostile to all immigration that uses illegal immigration as a red flag to call attention to themslves and occasionally wanders away from facts), claims 490,000, but the USCIS/DHS, (the government immigration folks), only estimate 280,000–a very large number, but much smaller than your claim. And PEW Hispanic Center estimated 500k Of the 3 500,000 PEW [http://www.pewhispanic.org/](http://www.pewhispanic.org/) 490,000 FAIR 290,000 USCIS/DHS I used the 2 that were like figures, and the lower of the two. ---
**Author:** ![dngnb8](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/977dab/32.png) [@dngnb8](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dngnb8)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2012, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doj-sues-sheriff-arpaio-for-civil-rights-abuses-anyone-care-to-take-arpaios-side-here/621726/154 "2012-05-15T17:04:39Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > You said: > > “AZs budget is hugely impacted by the costs of illegal immigration.” > > I have not seen the numbers that support that. > > Yes, you cited costs to hospitals. > > No one is denying that illegal immigrants on one hand are a drain on state resources. > > On the other hand they add to state resources. > > The question is how it all balances out. > > Some of that are in intangibles such as the cost increases everyone will pay if farmers cannot harvest their crops. > > My cite (and other studies) show that illegal immigrants are a net benefit to the US economy as a whole. Some states however shoulder more of a burden (California in particular but willing to bet Arizona is in there too). > > The question is how does it all pan out? Is AZ’s budget “hugely impacted” or marginally impacted when all revenue and costs are accounted for? I agree they hold jobs that most of us wont do I agree they pay sales tax They also pay SS tax (this is federal, state doesnt benefit) We can never know who files tax returns and who doesnt. To presume they all do is obtuse, since that would allow the Government to track them and deport them, and many do everything they can to fly under that radar. Some are trying to get citizenship, and they file accordingly. Others are paid under the table (migrant labor, Home Depot Campers), and we never see that money in the form of income tax. Sales tax yes, income tax no. I guess I see numbers in the Millions (150 milliion annually) and I call that huge. I agree, Huge is a perceptive analysis. We havent even addressed the impact migratory ESL student cause via Bushs NCLB impacts ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2012, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doj-sues-sheriff-arpaio-for-civil-rights-abuses-anyone-care-to-take-arpaios-side-here/621726/155 "2012-05-15T17:17:29Z")
> [@dngnb8](#): > > We can never know who files tax returns and who doesnt. To presume they all do is obtuse, since that would allow the Government to track them and deport them, and many do everything they can to fly under that radar. Employers usually pay the taxes. If an employer hires someone the employer would like to write-off the cost of paying that worker on their income taxes. If the employer pays under the table then they cannot write that expense off (cuz it didn’t officially happen). Employers generally do automatic withholding and sends that money to the state. Of course the state cannot match the illegal immigrant with a real person but they still get the money. Of course at some point it is cheaper to pay under the table than they would get back from a tax write-off. In this case they risk the wrath of the IRS. Your wished for crack downs can have pernicious effects. > [@](#): > > According to Tom Rex, who studies Arizona economy for the Arizona State University’s W.P. Carey School of Business,[31] said immigration crackdowns, notably the state’s employer-sanctions law, have driven more undocumented workers from the aboveground economy into the underground cash economy. This in turn means less tax revenue for the state of Arizona since undocumented workers who work aboveground pay income taxes according to the Arizona Republic.[31] Illegal immigrants boost the local economy by purchasing goods and services. Clint Hickman Vice President of Sales and Marketing at Hickman Family Farms, the largest egg producer in Arizona has said sales to supermarkets that cater to Latinos has dropped 20 percent since the passage of SB1070.[31] > > SOURCE: [Illegal immigration to the United States - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illegal_immigration_to_the_United_States) ---
**Author:** ![dngnb8](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/977dab/32.png) [@dngnb8](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dngnb8)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2012, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doj-sues-sheriff-arpaio-for-civil-rights-abuses-anyone-care-to-take-arpaios-side-here/621726/156 "2012-05-15T17:33:21Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > Employers usually pay the taxes. You can claim M-9 and have nothing withheld. That being said, many are paid cash and there are no withholdings. Lawn care companies here are notorious for hiring Home Depot Campers. > [@](#): > > If an employer hires someone the employer would like to write-off the cost of paying that worker on their income taxes. If the employer pays under the table then they cannot write that expense off (cuz it didn’t officially happen). Employers generally do automatic withholding and sends that money to the state. Of course the state cannot match the illegal immigrant with a real person but they still get the money. Actually, they can. It is called Fraud, but it happens. You can hire someone and if you pay them less then $400 annually, you dont have to report the pay, but you can take the write off. Home Depot here I come > [@](#): > > Of course at some point it is cheaper to pay under the table than they would get back from a tax write-off. In this case they risk the wrath of the IRS. > > Your wished for crack downs can have pernicious effects. Dont get me wrong, I understand what services they provide. I also think the impact of shipping them all out is one people dont truly understand. JMHO Our immigration system is the equivalent of a Pterodactyl and Granite Tablet, in a computer age I think the fix is revamping the immigration system, not building walls people just tunnel under (not sure where I wished for crack downs) ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2012, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doj-sues-sheriff-arpaio-for-civil-rights-abuses-anyone-care-to-take-arpaios-side-here/621726/157 "2012-05-15T18:25:33Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > I did not know any of this. Cites, please? (No snark, we **need** such cites in this thread.) > **[Thomas Aubuchon Alexander - Opinion | PDF | Virtue | Government Information](https://www.scribd.com/document/88738575/Thomas-Aubuchon-Alexander-opinion)** > > This document is an opinion and order from the Supreme Court of Arizona imposing sanctions on attorneys Andrew Thomas, Lisa Aubuchon, and Rachel Alexander. It finds that they committed multiple ethical violations related to Thomas's conduct as... Two hundred and thirty seven pages. It took me three days to read in my spare time. > [@](#): > > There are those who will doubtlessly point accusing fingers at the Office of the Maricopa County Sheriff with condemning tones of an unholy collaboration. The evidence against Respondents in this case speaks for itself. They never looked for evidence, because they always knew there was none. Ms. Aubuchon testified she would casually sit in “Dave Hendershott’s office some evenings” to discuss these > various events with the Sheriff and him. Aubuchon Testimony, Hr’g Tr. > 180:2 > – > 10.The Sheriff is not subject to the Professional Rules of Conduct for attorneys. > However, the Maricopa County Attorneys’ Office is the legal adviser to the > Sheriff. If the Sheriff or his Chief Deputy acted improperly, the only response of their legal advisers was to stand mute. We note there was no hesitation by Mr.Thomas to f > orcefully remind MCBOS that his office was a “check and balance” on > > 21 > them. When a legal counselor remains silent in the face of impropriety the result isoften predictable; it encourages those actions to continue.Nevertheless, it was Respondents who encouraged any untoward actions witha resolute refusal to act independently of the Sheriff. With either a wink and a nodor a collaborative voice they supported actions that became increasinglyquestionable, rather than independently following their seemingly never > – > assumed role as arbiters of justice. If the mighty forces of the offices of the Sheriff and theCounty Attorney in Maricopa County were adrift, they were intentionally loosedfrom their principled moorings by the guided hand of a Respondent with an intellectfueled with ferocity, an irrational ego and a concomitant endless ability to feed theiractions with rumors and speculations > [@](#): > > 15 > > Yavapai County Attorney Sheila Polk personally informed Sheriff Arpaio and > Chief Deputy Hendershott that she had reviewed the investigation involving the > Stapley II case and that additional investigation was needed. Sheriff Arpaio, > through Chief Deputy Hendershott, closing their eyes to his Constitutional rights, > ordered Mr. Stapley arrested. They never filed any documents or charges but > instead surreptitiously videotaped his arrest, and held him in jail for hours. It was > testified that no one ever filed anything against Mr. Stapley regarding this event, > but took the time to call the press to inform them that he had been arrested. > Shocked, Ms. Polk demanded a meeting with Sheriff Arpaio, Mr. Hendershott, > Mr. Thomas and Ms. Aubuchon. On September 24, 2009, she confronted the > Sheriff in his own office. He exploded. Mr. Thomas and Ms. Aubuchon stood silent. > Polk Testimony, Hr’g Tr. 211:18–215:2. Regardless of some counts, Respondents > knew they had charged a person with dozens of crimes that he could not be > convicted of. When Ms. Polk discovered that Respondents ignored the Constitution > by intentionally hiding critical evidence from her, she publically criticized Mr. > Thomas and the Sheriff. The retort was to be expected. Lisa Aubuchon reported > the actions of Sheila Polk to the Grand Jury. Her witness? Chief Deputy > Hendershott. Ex. 185, TRIAL EXB. 02097. To its credit, the Grand Jury refused to > be baited. The entirety of the Court Tower section is… well, many pages long. > [@](#): > > 1. In the face of this advice, Mr. Hendershott emailed Andrew Thomas, Phil MacDonnell and Sally Wells that he and Sheriff Arpaio were “all good with the civil rico”. > 320 > > 2. Mr. MacDonnell reacted by sending an email to Mr. Thomas with a copy to Barnett Lotstein and Ms. Wells, stating: The idea of a civil RICO case based on current evidence is unfounded. Peter Spaw, our RICO expert, thinks it makes no sense. My understanding is that Eric Dowell told MCSO about a week ago that a civil RICO case makes no sense. > > If MCSO brings a case against the BOS on a civil RICO theory, the subsequent damage to the statute from Legislative ‘reform’ could be > staggering. > > It would be a misuse of the law, which should be reserved for clearly criminal conduct. The bit about serving a judge? Bit long. > [@](#): > > THE CORE FACTS REGARDING THE FILING OF CHARGES AGAINST JUDGE > DONAHOE > 312. Judge Donahoe had scheduled a hearing for the afternoon of December 9, 2009 regarding the Notice and Motion filed by Thomas Irvine and Edward Novak on behalf of the County. > 467 > The motion filed for MCBOS by Irvine and Novak sought an order prohibiting special deputy county attorneys from appearing before a grand jury. > 313. On December 9, 2009, under Mr. Thomas’s authority and with his approval, Ms. Aubuchon through MCSO detectives filed a criminal case against Judge Donahoe. > 468 > Mr. Thomas made the decision to file a direct complaint against Judge Donahoe following a meeting with Ms. Aubuchon, Mr. Hendershott, and > Sheriff Arpaio. > 469 > Mr. Thomas and Ms. Aubuchon denied that they wanted to file the charges against Judge Donahoe to stop that hearing. > 470 > However, as discussed below, the Hearing Panel concludes that the evidence is clear and convincing that Mr. Thomas, Ms. Aubuchon, Sheriff Arpaio and then-Deputy Chief Hendershott decided to file the charges against Judge Donahoe so that he would not hold the December 9, 2009 hearing. > 314. Ms. Aubuchon and Detective Gabe Almanza signed the direct complaint. > 471 > > It charged the judge with hindering, obstruction and bribery. > 472 > There was no investigation in this matter prior to the filing of the direct complaint. > 473 > Only after the direct complaint was filed did MCSO create a report. > 474 > > 1. Ms. Aubuchon attempted to file the charges against Judge Donahoe a day earlier on December 8, 2009, after a meeting with Mr. Thomas, Sheriff Arpaio and Mr. Hendershott. > > 2. On the afternoon of December 8, 2009, Chief Deputy Hendershott of MCSO called Sgt. Rich Johnson about filing a case against Judge Donahoe. > 475 > Chief Deputy Hendershott told Sgt. Johnson that they needed it done “now.” > 476 > MCSO > Sgt. Brandon Luth, Sgt. Johnson and Deputy Chief Young called Ms. Aubuchon on the afternoon of December 8, 2009, to ask her what was going on and what they needed to charge. > 477 > Ms. Aubuchon stated they needed a Form 4, a DR (departmental report) and a probable cause statement. > 478 > Ms. Aubuchon told the MCSO officers she wanted to charge bribery and related charges. > 479 > Sgt. Luth did not know what to write. > 480 > Sgt. Luth’s orders were to put the case together and accompany Detective Cooning to “walk it through” that evening. > 481 > > 3. Later in the afternoon of December 8, 2009, Ms. Aubuchon, Chief Young, Sgt. Luth, Sgt. Johnson and Chief Hendershott met. > 482 > Chief Hendershott told them about the racketeering lawsuit, and that they thought Judge Donahoe was going to throw MCAO off all County investigations. > 483 > Chief Hendershott said that he had met with Mr. Thomas, Ms. Aubuchon, and Sheriff Arpaio, and that Sheriff Arpaio came up with the idea of charging the judge. > 484 > Chief Hendershott told Sgt. Luth to use as the material for the Form 4, or probable cause (“PC”) statement, a complaint that the Chief Deputy had submitted to the Commission on Judicial Conduct against Judge Donahoe. > 485 > Chief Hendershott printed off his complaint and wrote the charges on it. > 486 > At the hearing in this case, Mr. Hendershott was unable to describe any criminal conduct by Judge Donahoe. > 487 > > 4. Sgt. Luth drafted the PC statement using Chief Deputy Hendershott’s judicial complaint > 488 > at Ms. Aubuchon’s direction. > 489 > > 5. Sgt. Johnson called MCSO’s dispatch unit and obtained a Departmental Report number for the case. > 490 > At about 5:00 p.m., Sgt. Luth took the Donahoe charging documents to Ms. Aubuchon. She read them. She said that “it worked for her.” > 491 > Ms. Aubuchon signed the complaint as Deputy County Attorney. > > 6. Ms. Aubuchon attempted to have an investigator from MCAO file the direct complaint in Superior Court in the late afternoon or early evening of December 8, 2009. Ms. Aubuchon assigned the task of filing the direct complaint to MCAO investigator Lt. Richard Hargus. > 492 > Lt. Hargus then asked MCAO Detective Timothy Cooning to meet an MCAO clerk in front of the court at 5:30 p.m. > 493 > > Det. Cooning did so, and the clerk handed him the Donahoe file. Det. Cooning read the file, returned to his office, and informed Lt. Hargus that he felt uncomfortable swearing to the truthfulness of the complaint against Judge Donahoe because he had not investigated the case. > 494 > Det. Cooning also was uncomfortable signing the probable cause statement because it was unclear what crimes had been committed and who had investigated them. > 495 > 321. Lt. Hargus told his superior, Commander Stribling, that Lt. Hargus and Detective Cooning did not want to file the complaint because there was no probable cause to support it. > 496 > Commander Stribling agreed that none of his detectives should be put in the position of walking through a complaint on a sitting Superior Court judge when he knew nothing about the investigation that led up to the filing of the complaint. > 497 > The commissioner assigned to the evening court might ask the detective questions, and the detective would not know what to say. > 322. Commander Stribling called Mr. Thomas. Commander Stribling informed Mr. Thomas that Ms. Aubuchon was asking Lt. Hargus and Det. Cooning to get the Donahoe complaint filed. > 498 > Commander Stribling told Mr. Thomas that based on what Lt. Hargus and Det. Cooning had told him, there was no probable cause to support the complaint. > 499 > Commander Stribling told Mr. Thomas that he refused to have his detective walk through a complaint about which the detective had no knowledge. > 500 > Mr. Thomas agreed, but insisted that the complaint be filed no later than the next morning. > 501 > 323. Commander Stribling then called Ms. Aubuchon to explain his decision. The conversation was heated. > 502 > Commander Stribling suggested that MCSO Sgt. Brandon Luth file the complaint, since he was with the MACE Unit. Eventually, Ms. Aubuchon acquiesced. > 503 > > 1. Because Commander Stribling had refused to have MCAO investigators “walk it through,” Ms. Aubuchon turned to the sheriff’s office to assist her in filing the Donahoe complaint. > 504 > At Hargus’s instruction, at 6:00 that evening Det. Cooning met Sgt. Luth in front of Det. Cooning’s office and gave Sgt. Luth the direct complaint. Det. Cooning told Sgt. Luth he refused to swear to the complaint. > 505 > Sgt. Luth called Ms. Aubuchon and handed the phone to Det. Cooning. Ms. Aubuchon told Det. Cooning she “can’t believe this” and “this is > outrageous” and hung up on Det. Cooning. > 506 > Det. Cooning then agreed to meet Sgt. Luth at the IA court a few minutes later, where Sgt. Luth was to file the complaint. Once there, however, Sgt. Luth refused to file the complaint. > 507 > > 2. Sgt. Luth did not want to file the complaint against Judge Donahoe because he did not want to answer questions by the court about the case when it was filed. > 508 > He arranged for Det. Almanza and Det. Tennyson to meet with him the next morning. > 509 > > 3. On the morning of December 9, 2009, Sgt. Luth, Det. Almanza and Det. Tennyson met with Ms. Aubuchon. > 510 > Ms. Aubuchon handed Sgt. Luth the complaint against Judge Donahoe, which she had drafted, with the probable cause statement attached. > 511 > Sgt. Luth asked Ms. Aubuchon whether she had enough evidence to charge Judge Donahoe. > 512 > Ms. Aubuchon referred to past court filings and decisions and outlined for Sgt. Luth why she believed Judge Donahoe should be charged with crimes. > 513 > This struck Det. Almanza as bizarre because Ms. Aubuchon was telling Sgt. Luth what the evidence was, rather than the usual procedure, in which the investigator informs the prosecutor of the evidence. > 514 > > 4. Sgt. Luth and the detectives left the meeting. Sgt. Luth took the complaint he had received from Ms. Aubuchon, along with documents Ms. Aubuchon had > printed off of her computer. > 515 > > 5. The complaint was filed the same morning of December 9, 2009. > 516 > > Detective Gabriel Almanza signed it under oath. > 517 > Sgt. Luth told Det. Almanza to sign it. > 518 > Det. Almanza was not comfortable doing so, because he had not been involved in drafting the complaint and he had no knowledge as to the truth or falsity of it. > 519 > Det. Almanza had never filed a complaint before. > 520 > Sgt. Luth assured Det. Almanza that Ms. Aubuchon believed she had enough evidence to charge the judge. > 521 > Det. Almanza signed it based on his reliance on Ms. Aubuchon’s good faith. > 522 > > 1. MCSO Detectives Almanza and Tennyson served the direct complaint on Judge Donahoe. > 523 > They secretly recorded the service. > 524 > After Judge Donahoe was served, Sgt. Luth was ordered to take a copy of the direct complaint to Ms. Aubuchon and Chief Deputy Hendershott. > 525 > When Sgt. Luth gave the copy of > the complaint to Ms. Aubuchon, she said she already received an email notifying her that Judge Donahoe had vacated the hearing that had been set for later that afternoon. > 526 > She appeared pleased and happy. > 527 > Sgt. Luth then gave the complaint to Chief Deputy Hendershott, explaining that the complaint had been served and that he had just met with Ms. Aubuchon. > 528 > Chief Deputy Hendershott said, “checkmate.” > 529 To repeat, > [@](#): > > Chief Hendershott said that he had met with Mr. Thomas, Ms. Aubuchon, and Sheriff Arpaio, and that Sheriff Arpaio came up with the idea of charging the judge. Hm. Trying to find the exact bit where Judge Donahoe was threatened in the judgment. > [@](#): > > b. The process server used in the RICO case filed the prior week. > > 1. When coupled with the use by Mr. Thomas and Ms. Aubuchon of John Cox as their process server for the RICO racketeering federal complaint which they > filed the prior week on December 1, 2008 and served on Judge Donahoe as a defendant, such release of personal information is found to be conclusively hostile with ill intent. > 2. Jack Cox was a litigant who was prosecuted by the MCAO for threatening Judge Donahoe. The sons of Mr. Cox had inherited from their grandmother approximately $330,000. While serving in the Probate division Judge Donahoe > 3. Ex. 164, TRIAL EXB 01915. > ordered those funds be put in a restricted account for the benefit of those children. Mr. Cox began to squander the funds and Judge Donahoe ordered their seizure. Mr. Cox left voice mails on the office voice mail of Judge Donahoe threatening to kill him. Mr. Cox told a reporter that there were going to be bodies over this. As a result the presiding judge consulted with the police who determined that Mr. Cox’s actions constituted a credible threat. Judge Donahoe was guarded at his home and going back and forth to work by the Phoenix Police until they determined he was no longer at risk. It was Jack Cox who served Judge Donahoe with the racketeering complaint. > 620 Trust me. Read this whole thing. It’s not about Sheriff Joe. But it’s tied to him, he’s specifically mentioned repeatedly as having caused about half of it. And it’s all a legal judgment. ---
**Author:** ![Lust4Life](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ecc23a/32.png) [@Lust4Life](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lust4Life)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2012, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doj-sues-sheriff-arpaio-for-civil-rights-abuses-anyone-care-to-take-arpaios-side-here/621726/158 "2012-05-15T18:43:54Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > Cite for it being UK police regulations that they “have to ensure that the same number of ethnicities are questioned as well to ensure no racial bias”? > > Cite for “the police had to waste valuable time and money questioning Asians, West Indians etc. to make sure that the quotas were similar in number” regarding IRA violence in London? Sigh… I’ll nip in and ask a copper next opportunity I get in the next few days, don’t know if I can find it trawling through the internet while still young enough to have my own mobility. Its well known over here, this really is a silly request for a cite. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2012, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doj-sues-sheriff-arpaio-for-civil-rights-abuses-anyone-care-to-take-arpaios-side-here/621726/159 "2012-05-15T19:10:37Z")
> [@Lust4Life](#): > > Sigh… > > I’ll nip in and ask a copper next opportunity I get in the next few days, don’t know if I can find it trawling through the internet while still young enough to have my own mobility. > > Its well known over here, this really is a silly request for a cite. Maybe it used to be true but does not seem so now: > [@](#): > > Black people are 30 times more likely than white people to be stopped and searched by police in England and Wales, according to new analysis which reveals that “racial profiling” has increased over the past year. > > \ > > The figures refer to the use of section 60, the contentious police power that allows officers to stop and search people without reasonable suspicion and which was cited as an aggravating factor behind the August riots. Analysis by the London School of Economics (LSE) and the Open Society Justice Initiative shows during the past 12 months a black person was 29.7 times more likely to be stopped and searched than a white person. That figure was 26.6 the previous year. > > In 2009, black people were 10.7 times more likely to be stopped than whites under the controversial “exceptional” power. Mounting disquiet over the policy’s damaging effect on black communities prompted Scotland Yard last week to announce a scaling back of its use of section 60, which has become a central element of the Yard’s anti-knife crime strategy. > > A separate analysis, based on Home Office data, reveals that less than 0.5% of section 60 searches led to an arrest for possession of a dangerous weapon, five times fewer than a decade ago. > > SOURCE: [Stop and search 'racial profiling' by police on the increase, claims study | Stop and search | The Guardian](http://www.guardian.co.uk/law/2012/jan/14/stop-search-racial-profiling-police) ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2012, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doj-sues-sheriff-arpaio-for-civil-rights-abuses-anyone-care-to-take-arpaios-side-here/621726/160 "2012-05-15T19:11:52Z")
> [@Lust4Life](#): > > Its well known over here, this really is a silly request for a cite. Actually, given the large number of things that are “well known” that have zero factual basis, it would probably be a good thing for you to be able to find evidence of this. There is a persistent story, “well known” in the States, that if you ask an undercover cop whether he is a policeman he has to tell you the truth. [Not true.](http://www.snopes.com/risque/hookers/cop.asp) You are claiming that there is actually a law in Britain that requires policemen to keep track of the ethnicity of everyone they stop or question so that either they ask an equal, (or proportional?), number of all the various ethnic groups about any crime they are investigating or keep similar tabs on all the people they stop randomly on the street in regards to specific ethnic violence. Just the logistics of such a claim makes it rather unbelievable, without even getting into the issues of how they determine which ethnic group they are approaching before a stop. And asking the local copper is not actually providing evidence. Cops are as liable to buy into urban legends as anyone else. Let’s see some actual evidence for your claim. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doj-sues-sheriff-arpaio-for-civil-rights-abuses-anyone-care-to-take-arpaios-side-here/621726.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doj-sues-sheriff-arpaio-for-civil-rights-abuses-anyone-care-to-take-arpaios-side-here/621726.md?page=9)