# Dolce and Gabbana don't understand what "freedom of speech" means **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [March 16, 2015, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dolce-and-gabbana-dont-understand-what-freedom-of-speech-means/715141 "2015-03-16T19:18:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2015, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dolce-and-gabbana-dont-understand-what-freedom-of-speech-means/715141/41 "2015-03-17T14:20:02Z")
you guys don’t understand. These guys are rich, gay Italian designers. They CHOSE their traditional families! And they chose RIGHT. They’re not banging on non-traditional families, they’re confirming their choice to have been born into traditional families. What I found most objectionable about D&G’s blather is how hateful & cruel it is toward the children of non-traditional families. What a pair of self-involved asshats! (The formal meaning of “censorship” in America has to do with the government imposing limits on freedom of speech. But it’s commonly used to descibe any powerful entity, such as a corporation or a church, imposing limits on the freedom of speech of those under their power. Dopers don’t “get” this.) ---
**Author:** ![Slithy\_Tove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slithy_tove/32/18248_2.png) [@Slithy\_Tove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slithy_Tove)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2015, 2:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dolce-and-gabbana-dont-understand-what-freedom-of-speech-means/715141/42 "2015-03-17T14:21:38Z")
I imagine that if Scarlet Johannsen had done or said something execrable, a brand like D&G would have something in her contract to fire her with the modern equivalent of the morals clause: “you’re the face of our brand, and you’ve disgraced it” Does that work the other way for her? ---
**Author:** ![Anne\_Neville](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Anne\_Neville](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anne_Neville)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2015, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dolce-and-gabbana-dont-understand-what-freedom-of-speech-means/715141/43 "2015-03-17T14:32:13Z")
> [@Evil\_Captor](#): > > you guys don’t understand. These guys are rich, gay Italian designers. They CHOSE their traditional families! And they chose RIGHT. They’re not banging on non-traditional families, they’re confirming their choice to have been born into traditional families. > > What I found most objectionable about D&G’s blather is how hateful & cruel it is toward the children of non-traditional families. What a pair of self-involved asshats! Not just non-traditional families, either. Name just about any technology that non-traditional families use to have children, some traditional families have used it, too. When D&G had their [“celebration of motherhood” fashion show,](http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2015/03/16/elton-john-is-boycotting-dolce-and-gabbana-for-calling-children-conceived-with-ivf-synthetic/) I wonder if they quizzed all the women about how they conceived their children. > [@](#): > > (The formal meaning of “censorship” in America has to do with the government imposing limits on freedom of speech. But it’s commonly used to descibe any powerful entity, such as a corporation or a church, imposing limits on the freedom of speech of those under their power. Dopers don’t “get” this.) “Your” and “you’re” are also commonly used interchangeably. I still think it’s stupid, just like I think it’s stupid to use “freedom of speech” to mean “I should get to say whatever I want, and nobody else should be able to disagree or say anything negative about me because of what I said.” ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2015, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dolce-and-gabbana-dont-understand-what-freedom-of-speech-means/715141/44 "2015-03-17T14:40:07Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > As I suggested, read post #2. What, you think there haven’t been complaints regarding the Italian government’s stifling of the constitutionally-given right to freely speak or write one’s mind? ---
**Author:** ![SpoilerVirgin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/4491bb/32.png) [@SpoilerVirgin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SpoilerVirgin)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2015, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dolce-and-gabbana-dont-understand-what-freedom-of-speech-means/715141/45 "2015-03-17T15:28:35Z")
> [@JRDelirious](#): > > (Ricky Martin, OTOH, I ding for posting a tweet about “spreading h8” because he typed “h8”) Don’t know if you’re aware or not, but “h8” isn’t just stupid leet speech. It’s part of the “[NOH8](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NOH8_Campaign)” campaign, which started in opposition to Proposition 8 in California, and has since become a major marriage equality charitable organization. Spelling hate as “H8” specifically references support for marriage equality, so is appropriate for a tweet about this particular situation. [Ricky Martin for NOH8](http://www.ambienteg.com/2012/11/RickyMartinNOH8.jpg) ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2015, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dolce-and-gabbana-dont-understand-what-freedom-of-speech-means/715141/46 "2015-03-17T15:47:47Z")
I would find it hard to believe that some people are so clueless, they confuse “freedom of speech” with “freedom to speak and not be criticized for what they say.” Except that it keeps on happening, here in the U.S. as well as in Yurp. And the notion of being “shouted down” - that’s when those who disagree with you _prevent you from being heard_, not when they’re simply loud in their disagreement with you. This is especially obvious when you got your message out first, and only then did a lot of people noisily disagree with you in fora where you weren’t speaking in the first place. ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2015, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dolce-and-gabbana-dont-understand-what-freedom-of-speech-means/715141/47 "2015-03-17T16:04:28Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > I would find it hard to believe that some people are so clueless, they confuse “freedom of speech” with “freedom to speak and not be criticized for what they say.” Except that it keeps on happening, here in the U.S. as well as in Yurp. To be fair, “freedom to speak, write, or communicate” is pretty much the English translation of the Italian constitution. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2015, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dolce-and-gabbana-dont-understand-what-freedom-of-speech-means/715141/48 "2015-03-17T16:55:07Z")
> [@Nava](#): > > They’re entitled to their opinion, so’s Elton. Oh, absolutely. That’s kind of the thing, though - the D&G guys seem to fall into the same pitfall as many public figures making noise about their “freedom of speech”. Namely, they confuse freedom of speech and freedom from the \*consequences \*of speech. In this case, Elton John, speaking. Which they should have been grateful for, IMO - while he’s busy tweeting, he’s not singing. Elton John who, unless he’s planning on forming a corps of Lavender Shirts who’d tour D&G stores and hit their clerks with bludgeons or doses of castor oil probably isn’t a fascist, exactly. ---
**Author:** ![CGav8r](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/34f0e0/32.png) [@CGav8r](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CGav8r)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2015, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dolce-and-gabbana-dont-understand-what-freedom-of-speech-means/715141/49 "2015-03-17T17:02:19Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > So they’re gay, but they oppose gay adoption? Oookay. _Loggia_-Cabin Republicans, then? ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2015, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dolce-and-gabbana-dont-understand-what-freedom-of-speech-means/715141/50 "2015-03-17T18:16:16Z")
It is in a way, fascinating. D&G believe that a loud outcry of reaction is an attempt to shout down their opinion. Yet at the same time EU laws tend to be far more restrictive than American on aspects such as “hate speech”, “giving offense”, “right to be forgotten/not offended”, etc. Heck, the Penal Code of Italy even has a misdemeanor for insulting someone to his face (Art. 594, up to six months in the clink and 516 Euro fine). > [@SpoilerVirgin](#): > > Don’t know if you’re aware or not, but “h8” isn’t just stupid leet speech. It’s part of the “[NOH8](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NOH8_Campaign)” campaign, which started in opposition to Proposition 8 in California > > [Ricky Martin for NOH8](http://www.ambienteg.com/2012/11/RickyMartinNOH8.jpg) Wasn’t, and now I can amend that down from a ding to a sigh for not considering the majority of us may not be aware that campaign exists. ---
**Author:** ![Slithy\_Tove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slithy_tove/32/18248_2.png) [@Slithy\_Tove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slithy_Tove)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2015, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dolce-and-gabbana-dont-understand-what-freedom-of-speech-means/715141/51 "2015-03-17T22:47:04Z")
> [@CGav8r](#): > > _Loggia_-Cabin Republicans, then? L as in “Look at all our money: we can buy our way out of oppression.” O as in “Oh my God, elites like us make our own rules.” … ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2015, 2:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dolce-and-gabbana-dont-understand-what-freedom-of-speech-means/715141/52 "2015-03-18T02:00:33Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > It might be amusing to debate what “Freedom of Speech” really means in _The Land of the Free_™. > > [Here’s a picture of political protesters exercising free speech inside a cage with police stationed at the gate, lest a speaker escape](http://ericpetersautos.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/speech-3.jpg). (That picture is from [this article](http://www.infowars.com/federal-court-upholds-the-herding-of-demonstrators-into-free-speech-zones/), though I think restricting “free speech” to parts of towns where no one goes has recently occurred elsewhere in _The Home of the Brave_™.) > > In America the right to “free speech” led to protests when a fraternity was suspended for disgusting racism. In America “free speech” means major news stations are happy to compare the President and his wife to apes. In America, the Supreme Court has effectively ruled that “free speech” applies more to corporations than to humans; increasingly we should expect politicians to be bought-and-paid-for. > > Right-wing assholes brag that the Koch Brothers and Rupert Murdoch exert enormous control in America because of “free speech.” > > Pro tip for Europeans: When you see an American bragging about his First or Second Amendment Rights, run the other way. Nice frothing. Almost like performance art. I cannot imagine why you wrote this or addressed it to me. Did you disagree with something I said here? If so, it might be helpful to let me know what it is, and why you disagree. ::shrug:: ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2015, 1:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dolce-and-gabbana-dont-understand-what-freedom-of-speech-means/715141/53 "2015-03-28T13:04:13Z")
Seems like D & G have some company in the U.S. who think SSM [might not be such a wonderful thing.](http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2015/mar/27/adult-children-of-gays-say-gay-marriage-isnt-good-/) > [@](#): > > A group of adults who oppose gay marriage even though they were raised by gay, lesbian or transgender parents filed briefs with the Supreme Court Friday in hopes that their real-life experiences will dissuade the justices from legalizing the nuptials nationwide. > > Judges have often asked attorneys if gay marriage “harms” anyone, said humanities scholar Robert Oscar Lopez, founder and president of the International Children’s Rights Institute. > > The real-life answers to that question are in these amici briefs and other publications, said Mr. Lopez, who was raised by his lesbian mother and her partner. He filed a brief with colleague B.N. Klein, who grew up with her lesbian mother and her partners. > > \ > > The briefs revealed struggles with gender confusion, pressures to conform to gay values and attitudes, and feeling isolated and unhappy but unable to talk about those things with anyone. > > The inconsolable longing for the “missing” parent was another common theme. > > “When you have kids, all of a sudden it hits you,” said Mr. Lopez, who reconnected with his biological father in his late 20s. > > If the Supreme Court “rules to redefine marriage, it rules to redefine parenthood as well,” Katy Faust and Heather Barwick wrote in a joint brief. > > The women, who both grew up with loving lesbian mothers, said they realized gay marriage was wrong for children when they saw their husbands interact with their children. > > “Adult desires do not trump child rights,” said Ms. Faust. > > There’s “no reason to write out of civil code the need for a mother and a father,” she said. “This Court must either side with adult desires or side with children’s rights. But it cannot do both.” Very interesting. Wonder what the courts will think of the “harm” argument. ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2015, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dolce-and-gabbana-dont-understand-what-freedom-of-speech-means/715141/54 "2015-03-28T15:08:10Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Seems like D & G have some company in the U.S. who think SSM [might not be such a wonderful thing.](http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2015/mar/27/adult-children-of-gays-say-gay-marriage-isnt-good-/) > > Very interesting. Wonder what the courts will think of the “harm” argument. Probably that it’s utter bullshit. First of all, the plural of anecdote is not data. Do you think you could find children brought up by straight parents who had complaints about their upbringing? Furthermore, do you think there have never been gay children brought up by straight parents with the exact same complaints – pressure to be straight, conform to gender roles, etc.? Second, gay couples will have children, whether or not they are married to each other. They will have them from previous marriages, through adoption, through surrogacy, through sperm donation. What marriage does, among many other things, is help protect the children of gay couples. Jesus, what a bunch of crap. Are they saying that if gay marriage is banned, suddenly fathers will appear to help bring up the children of lesbians? How does that work? Are they pushing to ban divorce? Otherwise, even the children of straight parents will have that “inconsolable longing for the missing parent.” ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2015, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dolce-and-gabbana-dont-understand-what-freedom-of-speech-means/715141/55 "2015-03-28T15:13:26Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Seems like D & G have some company in the U.S. who think SSM [might not be such a wonderful thing.](http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2015/mar/27/adult-children-of-gays-say-gay-marriage-isnt-good-/) > > Very interesting. Wonder what the courts will think of the “harm” argument. Those quotes don’t seem to have anything to do with same-sex marriage. Same-sex parents and families exist, whether or not SSM is legal. Making it illegal doesn’t change where those kids live and who their parents are. Were these people’s gay/lesbian parents even married? If not (and based on the presumed ages of these adults, they were probably not), what on earth does this have to do with SSM? ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2015, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dolce-and-gabbana-dont-understand-what-freedom-of-speech-means/715141/56 "2015-03-28T16:43:17Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > See Post #2. You’ve used this twice. It seems you haven’t read Post #2 yourself. **kaylasdad** is mocking the idea that freedom of speech means something different over there. Notice how he used “Yurp,” “Englishmanland,” and “Italianland”? Notice absurdity of Italians having some authority to proclaim something as fascist? Notice the dubious smiley at the end? While different countries prioritize freedom of speech differently, what it means is pretty much universal. It includes the right to call for a boycott. As for an apology–the best you’ll get from me is an apology for singling you out. Apparently you’re not the only one who can’t put together how someone who equates calling for a boycott with fascism doesn’t understand freedom of speech. Plus, you don’t get good will from me for constantly being on the bigoted side on this issue. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2015, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dolce-and-gabbana-dont-understand-what-freedom-of-speech-means/715141/57 "2015-03-28T18:32:24Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Very interesting. Wonder what the courts will think of the “harm” argument. That it’s dumb. Unless they are going to rule that states can outlaw single parenting, too. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2015, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dolce-and-gabbana-dont-understand-what-freedom-of-speech-means/715141/58 "2015-03-28T18:42:22Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > > [@](#): > > > > There’s “no reason to write out of civil code the need for a mother and a father,” Was it ever written \*in \*? It’s cute how now even the LBGT movement has its “Jews for Jesus”. And how they’re similarly put waaaay in front of the rabid bigots. It’s cool, my best friend’s a fa… gay person, too. Kinda sad about the whole social pressure cum grass\_is\_greener syndrome these kids had to go through. If anything, the whole thing _reinforces_ the drive to stamp down gender stereotypes and expectations. Let’s become The Culture already, I have like a million GSV names just waiting to become realities ! Well, maybe a dozen if you remove all the gravitas puns. Still. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2015, 5:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dolce-and-gabbana-dont-understand-what-freedom-of-speech-means/715141/59 "2015-03-29T05:48:11Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > You’ve used this twice. It seems you haven’t read Post #2 yourself. > > **kaylasdad** is mocking the idea that freedom of speech means something different over there. Notice how he used “Yurp,” “Englishmanland,” and “Italianland”? Notice absurdity of Italians having some authority to proclaim something as fascist? Notice the dubious smiley at the end? > > While different countries prioritize freedom of speech differently, what it means is pretty much universal. It includes the right to call for a boycott. > > As for an apology–the best you’ll get from me is an apology for singling you out. Apparently you’re not the only one who can’t put together how someone who equates calling for a boycott with fascism doesn’t understand freedom of speech. > > Plus, you don’t get good will from me for constantly being on the bigoted side on this issue. Thanks for that, **BigT**. I had briefly considered asking him to refrain from using my post to convey the idea that I might think his viewpoint has any value, but I felt he was hardly worthy of my time and attention. ---
**Author:** ![eulalia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eulalia/32/457_2.png) [@eulalia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eulalia)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2015, 8:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dolce-and-gabbana-dont-understand-what-freedom-of-speech-means/715141/60 "2015-03-29T08:32:39Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > First Barilla, now D&G? WTF, Italy? Barilla has apparently seen the light. [http://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/human-rights-campaign-says-barilla-has-turned-around-its-policies-on-lgbt/2014/11/18/9866efde-6e92-11e4-8808-afaa1e3a33ef\_story.html](http://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/human-rights-campaign-says-barilla-has-turned-around-its-policies-on-lgbt/2014/11/18/9866efde-6e92-11e4-8808-afaa1e3a33ef_story.html) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dolce-and-gabbana-dont-understand-what-freedom-of-speech-means/715141.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dolce-and-gabbana-dont-understand-what-freedom-of-speech-means/715141.md?page=4)