# Dollhouse 3/6 **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [March 7, 2009, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dollhouse-3-6/488655 "2009-03-07T15:50:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Xan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/ac8455/32.png) [@Xan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Xan)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2009, 1:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dollhouse-3-6/488655/21 "2009-03-09T01:49:56Z")
My theory is rich people like to blow money. ---
**Author:** ![Telcontar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/3bc359/32.png) [@Telcontar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telcontar)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2009, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dollhouse-3-6/488655/22 "2009-03-09T16:39:17Z")
> [@Knorf](#): > > I don’t know what to say about the midwife thing, except that I agree it is pretty dumb without more explanation. > > What I would like to point out is that we’re starting to see some more classic, Whedonesque subversion of expectations: > > 1. The seemingly badass actives are prone to some really, _really_ serious flaws, which an outside malefactor can exploit. > > 2. Time was short, so no way was anyone going to get to the caper in time from their office to spring Echo. Thank Og some show finally figured out that getting around in LA takes serious time. (I’m looking at you, _24_.) > > 3. The classic, explain-it-over-the-phone-and-save-the-day routine FAILED. Taffy 2 then simply had to go back to her treatment. No saving of the day. > > 4. The obsessed good-guy agent on the assignment _doesn’t_ show mercy when the bad guy (yes, who is also an active) begs for some. It seems that the company was expecting that he would do the opposite. > > 5. The incredibly clever but incredibly annoying genius scientist’s failure doesn’t mean that he gets fired, or murdered, or beaten up by a bunch of angry bad company guys looking for a scapegoat. He gets promoted. > > So this Alpha guy. I take it he doesn’t have an agenda beyond bringing down the company. Interesting that he spared he before when he murdered the actives all around her, but this time left her in the lurch in a very, very vulnerable way. This. I was actually surprised at times. This is a rare thing in modern adventure television. As for the midwife: I’m wondering if there was some reason that secrecy was paramount, or whether Echo had another role and was just ALSO a midwife. Imagination is failing me a bit on this one. I can forgive the scene for the linebacker-lesbian quote 😛 ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2009, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dollhouse-3-6/488655/23 "2009-03-09T17:36:07Z")
> [@Telcontar](#): > > This. I was actually surprised at times. This is a rare thing in modern adventure television. > As for the midwife: I’m wondering if there was some reason that secrecy was paramount, or whether Echo had another role and was just ALSO a midwife. Imagination is failing me a bit on this one. I can forgive the scene for the linebacker-lesbian quote 😛 I think that they are trying to establish that the active’s do more things than just sleep with people, commit crime or are expensive bodygaurds. Not ‘all’ of the requests are for nefarious reasons. (Although, as pointed out above, something seems nefarious about having a kid in such a remote place, but it doesnt have to be.) \ Could be that Dollhouse is using that facility to grow new actives … \ ---
**Author:** ![The\_Devil\_s\_Grandmother](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/74df32/32.png) [@The\_Devil\_s\_Grandmother](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Devil_s_Grandmother)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2009, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dollhouse-3-6/488655/24 "2009-03-09T17:59:18Z")
> [@simster](#): > > (Although, as pointed out above, something seems nefarious about having a kid in such a remote place, but it doesnt have to be.) Heh. My actual first thought on that scene went back to Buffy/Angel plotlines centering around the birth of a foretold child, either good or evil. A more logical idea might be that the child was destined to be the 42nd Earl of Snowy Mountains, and every Earl of Snowy Mountains had been born in that locations since time out of mind. \ I suspect the only motive behind the scene was yet another throwaway character (in this instance the mom) wishing to forget something. I like the idea Alpha was a programmer, possibly the developer of this technology who experimented on himself, much better than Alpha being the first solider-used-as-lab-rat. if Alpha is revenging himself on the company for stealing his idea it makes much more sense. As for Topher drinking juice boxes, I think the show was just trying to emphasize his self-centered immaturity. Considering Topher dubious morality in happily working in the Dollhouse (unlike Boyd and the doctor who have obvious reservations), I’d rather he was taking out his unnatural lusts on juice boxes instead of the Actives. It might be interesting to see Topher or at home. So far we have no idea of his live outside the Dollhouse, or if he lives there. ---
**Author:** ![Sean\_Factotum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/50afbb/32.png) [@Sean\_Factotum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sean_Factotum)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2009, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dollhouse-3-6/488655/25 "2009-03-09T21:01:44Z")
> [@Knorf](#): > > I don’t know what to say about the midwife thing, except that I agree it is pretty dumb without more explanation. Seemed to me that the mid-wife scene, where Echo was delivering a baby, tied in nicely with her being wiped in the middle of a job, becoming a baby herself. In fact, I think one of the other characters made a reference to her being an infant. That’s how I saw it, after the fact of course. My personal opinion is that this was the strongest episode to date. ---
**Author:** ![Kaio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/c68b51/32.png) [@Kaio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kaio)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2009, 11:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dollhouse-3-6/488655/26 "2009-03-09T23:40:19Z")
> [@The\_Devil\_s\_Grandmother](#): > > I like the idea Alpha was a programmer, possibly the developer of this technology who experimented on himself, much better than Alpha being the first solider-used-as-lab-rat. if Alpha is revenging himself on the company for stealing his idea it makes much more sense. I think it makes just as much sense if he’s taking revenge because the company stole his _identity_. At this point from what we’ve seen, becoming an Active is only “voluntary” in the loosest sense of the word. I wouldn’t lay odds (yet) that programming was a native skill of his that they allowed him to keep. It’s entirely possible that Alpha was the one they used to push the envelope, experimentally, to see how far they could take the technology. So they programmed him so his default (not exactly Tabula Rasa for him) state included “ninja skills.” Possibly they were also experimenting with having Actives act as employees to run the operation, initially. They weren’t quite turning the factory over to the robots yet (since Echo was pretty clearly Tabula Rasa when they found her in the pile o’ bodies), but it might have been an idea they were pursuing for a while. So they gave him programming skills from half a dozen of the top programmers in the world and tasked him with helping Topher. He was still working/living in the Dollhouse when he went nuts, so it doesn’t seem to me that they stole his ideas and booted him out. Why steal his ideas at all? If he was natively that smart he’d be more valuable working for them than wiping him and using him as an Active. Plus their referring to it as “composite event” makes me think that Alpha’s current personality is an amalgamation of traits and memories that were incompletely wiped from him; he “forgot” all the people he had been for a while, including the guy he was pre-Dollhouse, but as memories and bits and pieces resurfaced they glommed together to form a psychopathic, smart, and very angry personality… who may also be aware that his memories from before the Dollhouse are incomplete. ---
**Author:** ![MaxTheVool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9fc29f/32.png) [@MaxTheVool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MaxTheVool)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2009, 12:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dollhouse-3-6/488655/27 "2009-03-10T00:28:36Z")
I also enjoyed this episode quite a bit. I do agree, though, that the big unanswered question is how the dollhouse, as an organization, makes any sense at all. If it’s just what it’s presented to us as, namely, it provides an illegal service for extraordinarily wealthy clients, well, as many people have pointed out, its mere existence stretches credulity hilariously. I’m keeping hope, though, that THAT level (which obviously exists) is just a cover for something else. ---
**Author:** ![iftheresaway](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/ecae2f/32.png) [@iftheresaway](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iftheresaway)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2009, 12:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dollhouse-3-6/488655/28 "2009-03-10T00:49:12Z")
I watched all four episodes today on Hulu, and I don’t know if that (getting it all pretty much in one lump) made a difference, but I’m really digging this show so far. I watched each show, then checked out the discussion here to get my wheels turning 🙂 before checking out the next one. I definitely agree with whoever called him/herself, in this thread or the last one, a “concept-weenie”. I like this show, but I love the things it makes me think about, whether deliberately or 'what if this had happened instead" or just about the rules of the universe. I like that it’s garnering talk, even if some/ much of that talk is picking apart the premise. After all, how much time can you spend picking apart the premise of Two and a Half Men? Whedon’s provided some fertile ground to argue about, if nothing else. Most of what I was thinking has been said, but I was wondering if anyone else really felt like Topher reminded them of [Adam Busch](http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0123951/)? I don’t know if it’s the delivery or the chin or what, but I had to do a double take for the first few Topher scenes. ---
**Author:** ![Nicolas\_Bourbaki](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ecc23a/32.png) [@Nicolas\_Bourbaki](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nicolas_Bourbaki)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2009, 12:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dollhouse-3-6/488655/29 "2009-03-10T00:50:45Z")
> [@The\_Devil\_s\_Grandmother](#): > > I like the idea Alpha was a programmer, possibly the developer of this technology who experimented on himself, much better than Alpha being the first solider-used-as-lab-rat. if Alpha is revenging himself on the company for stealing his idea it makes much more sense. I assumed Alpha’s deal was just the result of having too many personalities and skillsets uploaded into his head and not always wiping perfectly, much like they’re incessantly foreshadowing for Echo in every episode. Only thing was, Alpha was able to retain mad hacker skills and knife-fighting abilities, rather than a crash course in art appreciation and a psychotic outdoorsman’s catchphrase. Anyways, it’s wild-ass prediction time now. **Nic** ’s wild-ass prediction 1: We find out that Alpha isn’t trying to kill Echo; he’s trying to get her to snap so she has her own ‘event’ and joins him. Prediction 2: It works. ---
**Author:** ![Kaio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/c68b51/32.png) [@Kaio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kaio)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2009, 1:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dollhouse-3-6/488655/30 "2009-03-10T01:15:18Z")
> [@Nicolas\_Bourbaki](#): > > I assumed Alpha’s deal was just the result of having too many personalities and skillsets uploaded into his head and not always wiping perfectly, much like they’re incessantly foreshadowing for Echo in every episode. Only thing was, Alpha was able to retain mad hacker skills and knife-fighting abilities, rather than a crash course in art appreciation and a psychotic outdoorsman’s catchphrase. Topher did indicate that Alpha had been given fighting skills in his default state, and he seemed to believe that was part of the reason why Alpha started slaughtering everyone. > [@](#): > > Anyways, it’s wild-ass prediction time now. > **Nic** ’s wild-ass prediction 1: We find out that Alpha isn’t trying to kill Echo; he’s trying to get her to snap so she has her own ‘event’ and joins him. > Prediction 2: It works. WAG 3: Alpha knew Caroline before either of them got to the Dollhouse, which is why he’s fixated on her. He remembers her, though perhaps his memories of her are haphazard and incomplete. ---
**Author:** ![Offkenter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/f08c70/32.png) [@Offkenter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Offkenter)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2009, 1:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dollhouse-3-6/488655/31 "2009-03-10T01:42:51Z")
> [@iftheresaway](#): > > Most of what I was thinking has been said, but I was wondering if anyone else really felt like Topher reminded them of [Adam Busch](http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0123951/)? I don’t know if it’s the delivery or the chin or what, but I had to do a double take for the first few Topher scenes. I see what you mean, but I still think that he looks more like Alan Tudyk. Maybe he’s Alan Tudyk and Adam Busch’s love child? ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2009, 3:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dollhouse-3-6/488655/32 "2009-03-10T03:20:26Z")
> [@Kaio](#): > > Topher did indicate that Alpha had been given fighting skills in his default state, and he seemed to believe that was part of the reason why Alpha started slaughtering everyone. > > WAG 3: Alpha knew Caroline before either of them got to the Dollhouse, which is why he’s fixated on her. He remembers her, though perhaps his memories of her are haphazard and incomplete. WAG 4: They decide the way to find Alpha is to upload Alpha’s disk to Echo, and follow her to him, only to have them (brother and sister) join forces against them. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2009, 4:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dollhouse-3-6/488655/33 "2009-03-10T04:33:30Z")
The follow info comes from a posting on a Whedon-dedicated board. I was cautiously optimistic at this: > [@](#): > > Dollhouse > > In series-premiere news, Fox drama Dollhouse opened with 4.72 million viewers (third behind CBS’ Flashpoint and ABC’s Supernanny) and a 2.0 rating/6 share among adults 18-49 (second behind Supernanny) at 9 p.m. While that is nothing to boast about, it built from re-located lead-in Terminator: The Sarah Connor Chronicles (Viewers: #3, 3.71 million; A18:49: #2t, 1.4/ 5 at 8 p.m.) by a noticeable 1.01 million viewers and 43 percent in the demo. But then I read this: > [@](#): > > Firefly > > In a night of mixed news on the series premiere front, although Fox’s Firefly inched out of the 8 p.m. starting gate with a third-place 4.9/8 [approx 5.2 million viewers], lead-out John Doe premiered at a time period-winning 6.8/12 – 39 percent above Firefly. ..[Firefly had] a loss of 4 percent in rating and one share point in the second half hour (5.0/9 to 4.8/8)." ---
**Author:** ![iftheresaway](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/ecae2f/32.png) [@iftheresaway](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iftheresaway)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2009, 4:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dollhouse-3-6/488655/34 "2009-03-10T04:47:30Z")
> [@Offkenter](#): > > I see what you mean, but I still think that he looks more like Alan Tudyk. Maybe he’s Alan Tudyk and Adam Busch’s love child? That is either the sexiest or the most disturbing image I have entertained for at least twenty minutes. ---
**Author:** ![N9IWP](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/n9iwp/32/3154_2.png) [@N9IWP](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/N9IWP)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2009, 11:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dollhouse-3-6/488655/35 "2009-03-10T11:33:52Z")
Interesting that Taffys mottos were “never secon guess a client” and “wear comfy shoes” - her shoes did NOT look comfy at all… Brian ---
**Author:** ![Offkenter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/f08c70/32.png) [@Offkenter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Offkenter)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2009, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dollhouse-3-6/488655/36 "2009-03-10T14:49:08Z")
> [@iftheresaway](#): > > That is either the sexiest or the most disturbing image I have entertained for at least twenty minutes. Let’s split the difference and say it’s both. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![The\_Devil\_s\_Grandmother](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/74df32/32.png) [@The\_Devil\_s\_Grandmother](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Devil_s_Grandmother)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2009, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dollhouse-3-6/488655/37 "2009-03-10T20:23:04Z")
> [@Nicolas\_Bourbaki](#): > > Anyways, it’s wild-ass prediction time now. > **Nic** ’s wild-ass prediction 1: We find out that Alpha isn’t trying to kill Echo; he’s trying to get her to snap so she has her own ‘event’ and joins him. > Prediction 2: It works. I’d agree Alpha isn’t trying to kill Echo, but I’ll WAG it’s because he’s trying to free her, possibly even return her to being Caroline. _Why_ he wants to is a mystery I can’t guess at right now. ---
**Author:** ![crazyjoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f14d63/32.png) [@crazyjoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crazyjoe)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2009, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dollhouse-3-6/488655/38 "2009-03-10T20:46:50Z")
> [@N9IWP](#): > > Interesting that Taffys mottos were “never secon guess a client” and “wear comfy shoes” - her shoes did NOT look comfy at all… > > Brian I noticed that as well. Those are not the types of shoes you would wear for a job like that, which might require running and stuff. I notice this more than I should, but it really annoys me when you see some detective woman running some thug down, and then they show a full-body scene and she’s wearing 3 inch clogs or something. ---
**Author:** ![jackdavinci](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackdavinci/32/3259_2.png) [@jackdavinci](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jackdavinci)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2009, 8:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dollhouse-3-6/488655/39 "2009-03-11T08:39:30Z")
I liked this episode a lot. Especially the subversions with the second active not being able to save the day. The show still isn’t great, but it’s definitely improving and starting to find it’s groove. I look forward to the eight episode when the network’s mandated run of stand alone episodes ends. I love Helo, but I’m not loving his FBI agent arc. It’s definitely not something that can be drawn out for even a whole season. I hope they find a better use for his character. I’m guessing they make him a handler at some point. It does look like he gets a more interesting story next episode. > [@Unauthorized\_Cinnamon](#): > > I also liked that Britchick assured the client only the computer knew his actual request, and then clearly everyone working on the case knew about it. I’m still a little confused about that. It didn’t seem like standard protocol - was it a special request by the client? It’s clear that once the job went wrong they could piece together what the job was, but I wasn’t sure if they knew all the details before that. > [@mr.jp](#): > > I don’t think the scientist is annoying though, I think he is rather likable, especially considering his questionable morals. Maybe not annoying, but out of place. For the most part, this show has a more serious and “realistic” tone than Joss’s other stuff (with the exception of Firefly). He seems more like a throwback to a character who would be on Angel or Buffy. He reminds me a little of Andrew. I get that he’s the comedic relief to an extent, but Joss did that much better with Wash on Firefly, who was comedic without being cartoonish. Everytime I see him I keep wishing they had cast me instead. That part needs someone with a more wry, dead pan, sense of humor and not so over the top. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2009, 9:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dollhouse-3-6/488655/40 "2009-03-11T09:09:28Z")
> [@Nicolas\_Bourbaki](#): > > **Nic** ’s wild-ass prediction 1: We find out that Alpha isn’t trying to kill Echo; he’s trying to get her to snap so she has her own ‘event’ and joins him. > Prediction 2: It works. Prediction 3: It works, except for the fact that Echo doesn’t end up a psychopath (she is, after all, the protagonist), which leads to a three-way cat-and-mouse between Alpha, Echo and the Dollhouse. First, however, she will “awaken” before anyone else realizes it, so there will be a few episodes of her walking around surreptitiously pretending to be blank and carrying her memories on from mission to mission. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dollhouse-3-6/488655.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dollhouse-3-6/488655.md?page=3)