# Dollhouse 5/8 - Season Finale **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [May 8, 2009, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dollhouse-5-8-season-finale/495779 "2009-05-08T19:54:53Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2009, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dollhouse-5-8-season-finale/495779/41 "2009-05-10T17:19:29Z")
> [@Contrapuntal](#): > > She should have realized it from the get-go, considering that the original Dr. Saunders was a man. One would assume they didn’t port Dr. Saunders directly, giving him functional immortality. Rather they used him as a template to help build her new personality in some composite form. OR they didn’t use him at all ( do they have scans of everyone who works there? there is really no such indication yet ), just his name - Whiskey’s personality as a dedicated, caring doctor being entirely constructed from other sources. ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2009, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dollhouse-5-8-season-finale/495779/42 "2009-05-10T17:22:54Z")
> [@Tamerlane](#): > > One would assume they didn’t port Dr. Saunders directly, giving him functional immortality. Rather they used him as a template to help build her new personality in some composite form. OR they didn’t use him at all ( do they have scans of everyone who works there? there is really no such indication yet ), just his name - Whiskey’s personality as a dedicated, caring doctor being entirely constructed from other sources. I suppose you could be right, but I can’t see the need to call her Dr. Saunders. What would be the point? ---
**Author:** ![Xan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/ac8455/32.png) [@Xan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Xan)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2009, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dollhouse-5-8-season-finale/495779/43 "2009-05-10T17:24:41Z")
> [@Contrapuntal](#): > > I suppose you could be right, but I can’t see the need to call her Dr. Saunders. What would be the point? They like the name? ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2009, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dollhouse-5-8-season-finale/495779/44 "2009-05-10T17:28:59Z")
> [@Xan](#): > > They like the name? So, totally random? The fact that she is replacing someone named Saunders is irrelevant? Out of all the possible names in the world, only Saunders would do? And, to **Tamerlane** , isn’t it possible that they needed every bit of Saunders in the new model, and couldn’t afford to leave anything out, as he was the Dollhouse doctor? How would you cobble something together to handle what is essentially unknown technology without using someone who is familiar with it? ---
**Author:** ![OpalCat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/8edcca/32.png) [@OpalCat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OpalCat)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2009, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dollhouse-5-8-season-finale/495779/45 "2009-05-10T17:37:09Z")
I’m sure they tinkered with the Dr. Saunders imprint to make it female before putting it on Whiskey. Anything else is just absurd because as mentioned, she’d KNOW it wasn’t her body otherwise. As for Topher’s friend that he gets to play with once a year… I thought that was himself…? It seemed to me like he got to download his own personality into another body and interact with himself. An intellectual equal with all the same interests, etc. Also, it’s a “diagnostic” and so if it was him, he’d be able to see if anything was weird about the imprinted version, because he knows himself and would see discrepancies. ---
**Author:** ![Kaio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/c68b51/32.png) [@Kaio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kaio)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2009, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dollhouse-5-8-season-finale/495779/46 "2009-05-10T21:30:55Z")
> [@Offkenter](#): > > Wait, if Whiskey never opened her own file to see who she had been, what made her think that she was “made” to hate Topher? I took that line to mean that she had a deep hatred of him that she BLAMED on him. It would be a sign of remorse on Topher’s part if he had actually programmed that in to her, but if she never read her own file, how would she know? Well, because she knows how the Doll technology works. _Everything_ that she is, down to her favorite color, was put there by Topher. Honestly, that bit very nearly made me cry. It shows that hidden underneath the cockiness, Topher’s got some serious guilt and self-loathing going on. He’s been ignoring his conscience in favor of the opportunity to play with really cool toys, but he still has one. I’d lay odds that his insistence that there’s no soul in there is his way of soothing his own conscience. Nope, cannot hate Topher. > [@SenorBeef](#): > > Of course it could’ve simply been a natural result of the various personality traits she had rather than a deliberate choice. Judging from Topher’s reaction when she said it, though, my guess is that he did indeed do it on purpose. > [@Paintcharge](#): > > Was anyone else really by Echo having trouble getting to Caroline’s hard drive on the little beam. She had all of the imprints she’s ever had in her head-what about the skills of the bank robber, maybe the back-up dancer? I took a second look at this scene, because I wondered the same thing. She has trouble because she was shot in the shoulder – she basically had the choice of supporting her weight with the bad shoulder, or reaching for the wedge with it. I wouldn’t attempt to support half my body weight on a bad shoulder either, but as it turns out trying to extend a shot-up muscle didn’t work out so well, either. > [@OpalCat](#): > > As for Topher’s friend that he gets to play with once a year… I thought that was himself…? It seemed to me like he got to download his own personality into another body and interact with himself. An intellectual equal with all the same interests, etc. Also, it’s a “diagnostic” and so if it was him, he’d be able to see if anything was weird about the imprinted version, because he knows himself and would see discrepancies. I got the impression that DeWitt was fully aware that the “diagnostic” was really no such thing, and she lets him get away with it once a year because she realizes that it’s important to him for him to remain on a more even keel, emotionally speaking, which is vital given the work they do and the need for secrecy. Depressed employees are not going to be at the top of their game, after all. Does anyone know when we’d find out if _Dollhouse_ has been renewed? ---
**Author:** ![Kaio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/c68b51/32.png) [@Kaio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kaio)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2009, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dollhouse-5-8-season-finale/495779/47 "2009-05-10T21:41:20Z")
Hmmm… now that I think about it, there’s still a lot more going on than we know… Alpha has been feeding information (and disinformation) to Ballard, but whoever sent the message to him imprinted in Echo said that Ballard needed to find out the greater purpose of the Dollhouse. But Alpha _wouldn’t care_ about any greater purpose. All he wanted was a partner in god-hood. So there’s still another player here that we haven’t seen yet. And Ballard’s in an excellent position to discover this stuff and perhaps eventually take down the Dollhouse from within. (This better be renewed.) ---
**Author:** ![OpalCat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/8edcca/32.png) [@OpalCat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OpalCat)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2009, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dollhouse-5-8-season-finale/495779/48 "2009-05-10T21:44:54Z")
> [@Kaio](#): > > I got the impression that DeWitt was fully aware that the “diagnostic” was really no such thing, and she lets him get away with it once a year because she realizes that it’s important to him for him to remain on a more even keel, emotionally speaking, which is vital given the work they do and the need for secrecy. Depressed employees are not going to be at the top of their game, after all. I agree that DeWitt allows it as an indulgence, and not as a true test, but do you agree that the personality he loads into the doll is himself? ---
**Author:** ![Kaio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/c68b51/32.png) [@Kaio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kaio)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2009, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dollhouse-5-8-season-finale/495779/49 "2009-05-10T21:50:16Z")
> [@OpalCat](#): > > I agree that DeWitt allows it as an indulgence, and not as a true test, but do you agree that the personality he loads into the doll is himself? I see no particular reason for it to be, and I think it would be more fun to play with someone who’s capable of surprising me occasionally. He’s got a pretty extensive library of personality traits at his disposal, after all, he could create whatever his true ideal of a friend is. ---
**Author:** ![Helena](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c68b51/32.png) [@Helena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Helena)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2009, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dollhouse-5-8-season-finale/495779/50 "2009-05-10T22:03:56Z")
I wish hulu had subtitles. I keep having to back it up to catch what people say. ---
**Author:** ![Kaio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/c68b51/32.png) [@Kaio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kaio)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2009, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dollhouse-5-8-season-finale/495779/51 "2009-05-10T22:40:31Z")
Hulu does have subtitles. Not on all shows, but they do on _Dollhouse_. Look at the bottom bar of the movie player, and click on the button that says “CC” on it. That’ll give you a menu where you can choose English or none. ---
**Author:** ![Helena](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c68b51/32.png) [@Helena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Helena)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2009, 11:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dollhouse-5-8-season-finale/495779/52 "2009-05-10T23:14:23Z")
How about that! Thanks! ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Q](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/898d66/32.png) [@Johnny\_Q](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Q)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2009, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dollhouse-5-8-season-finale/495779/53 "2009-05-10T23:59:00Z")
I wonder if Echo and Whiskey/Saunders knew each other on the outside before they were wiped. In an earlier episode, Whiskey tells Echo “I’m not your friend in here.” This could mean: 1.) This may be your friend’s body, but she doesn’t live here anymore. or 2.) I know who you are and you may know who I am, but this is a deep cover situation, so don’t burn me. Given that Whiskey suggested the personality implanted into Echo, she may have used this to send a message or perform a secondary operation in addition to the primary one. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2009, 1:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dollhouse-5-8-season-finale/495779/54 "2009-05-11T01:29:37Z")
My money is on Whiskey for the mole–although she might possibly be a mole in cahoots with Topher (who may or may not be conscious of his role in the moleitude). We know she has computer skills now, she can use the equipment, which isn’t necessary for her role as a doctor. The line about “I’m not your friend in here” works well with that. Hoping it’s renewed. Doubting it will be: this is an interstitial show, scifi/horror/police procedural. I can see where it’s having trouble finding an audience. Dushku’s acting in this ep was the best yet, IMO. ---
**Author:** ![WordMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e8c25b/32.png) [@WordMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WordMan)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2009, 12:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dollhouse-5-8-season-finale/495779/55 "2009-05-11T12:32:37Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Dushku’s acting in this ep was the best yet, IMO. For some reason, watching here interact with some playing herself as Caroline not only worked, but it gave another layer, IMHO, to Dushku’s work - not sure how, but there ya go… I am not looking forward to an episode where we get to know Caroline in a body and have her die again… ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2009, 12:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dollhouse-5-8-season-finale/495779/56 "2009-05-11T12:50:41Z")
The “Wendy” actress was pretty bad though. She should’ve been an emotional focal point of the episode… Caroline wakes up in a new body, has no idea what’s going on, seeing that her old body may never be hers again, and a serial killer is threatning to reawaken her personality over and over again in random people so that he can endlessly torture her… that’s horrifying and something that should grip the audience. But the actress who was supposed to have been imprinted with Caroline (and the writing for her character, I suppose) were uncompelling at best. ---
**Author:** ![WordMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e8c25b/32.png) [@WordMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WordMan)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2009, 1:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dollhouse-5-8-season-finale/495779/57 "2009-05-11T13:10:34Z")
> [@SenorBeef](#): > > The “Wendy” actress was pretty bad though. She should’ve been an emotional focal point of the episode… Caroline wakes up in a new body, has no idea what’s going on, seeing that her old body may never be hers again, and a serial killer is threatning to reawaken her personality over and over again in random people so that he can endlessly torture her… that’s horrifying and something that should grip the audience. But the actress who was supposed to have been imprinted with Caroline (and the writing for her character, I suppose) were uncompelling at best. First of all, I agree - the scenario you describe feels like it would be far more chilling and is what I reference in my earlier thread about not wanting to experience that. If they get us to really identify with the Caroline in a body that gets killed - ugh. And how would we view later Caroline’s that manifest? I think that whole mindset informs how they used this Caroline and what they looked for in this actress… ---
**Author:** ![MEBuckner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mebuckner/32/2896_2.png) [@MEBuckner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MEBuckner)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2009, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dollhouse-5-8-season-finale/495779/58 "2009-05-11T16:44:04Z")
> [@Strinka](#): > > So, that’s what happened to Alpha. I wonder what it’s like to have 48 full personalities in your head. But that’s not _all_ that happened to Alpha. His original pre-Dollhouse budding serial killer personality was starting to manifest itself–Carl William Craft I guess his name was—the whole playing with scissors thing/attack on Whiskey happened _before_ he got all the other personalities dumped into him. And then, in the course of trying to diagnose that, he got composited and turned into serial killer+dozens of other personalities (no doubt with all sorts of special abilities). Now–was it the ill-advised engagement with Alpha and Whiskey as Bonnie and Clyde for the client who wanted a thrill ride and got more than he bargained for, that caused Alpha’s original personality (Carl) to re-emerge? Or was it something deeper having to do with the dolls’ original personalities still lingering under all the wiping and re-imprinting? ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2009, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dollhouse-5-8-season-finale/495779/59 "2009-05-11T21:13:08Z")
What is interesting is that both Alpha and Echo with the personalities dumped in both have a composite personality that is clearly in control. This would be the one Alpha seems to think is ‘enlightened’ and the killing of the old self is relevant only in that it is dropping off unneeded baggage. Like what’s real is all still there, so the memories are not necessary. The being unable to balance on the ibeam thing makes no sense, why didn’t she just walk out onto the beam? Also, I thought Ballard’s ending made no sense, and Caroline just going back to the dollhouse after all the effort to sever her ties to it made no sense either. ---
**Author:** ![WordMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e8c25b/32.png) [@WordMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WordMan)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2009, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dollhouse-5-8-season-finale/495779/60 "2009-05-11T21:58:05Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > What is interesting is that both Alpha and Echo with the personalities dumped in both have a composite personality that is clearly in control. This would be the one Alpha seems to think is ‘enlightened’ and the killing of the old self is relevant only in that it is dropping off unneeded baggage. Like what’s real is all still there, so the memories are not necessary. > > The being unable to balance on the ibeam thing makes no sense, why didn’t she just walk out onto the beam? > > Also, I thought Ballard’s ending made no sense, and Caroline just going back to the dollhouse after all the effort to sever her ties to it made no sense either. Isn’t there some commentary/beliefs baked into the script on whether you can _really_ scrub a Doll clean? Given the fact that they found Craft’s pre-Doll victim and she was slashed seems to suggest that there is something permanently “Craft” about the body they thought they could wipe at any time. The fact that Caroline’s composite self was more rational seems to suggest that her “base, unchanging” self is more balanced and rational vs. Craft/Alpha’s… [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dollhouse-5-8-season-finale/495779.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dollhouse-5-8-season-finale/495779.md?page=4)