# Dollhouse Mar 27 2009: Echoes **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [March 28, 2009, 1:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dollhouse-mar-27-2009-echoes/491052 "2009-03-28T01:29:49Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![WordMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e8c25b/32.png) [@WordMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WordMan)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2009, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dollhouse-mar-27-2009-echoes/491052/41 "2009-03-30T17:53:32Z")
> [@Bridget\_Burke](#): > > Your son apparently considers some of Buffy’s outfits impractical–you call them tarty & tramptastic. Did you add those words to his vocabulary? Not sure - is this commentary on my views or parenting skills? My son loves Whedon-ese, but no, tramp-tastic is not a new addition. But my son has commented on both the lack of the practical and the tarty nature of some of Buffy’s outfits. Kids notice stuff like cleavage and slit-too-high-not-to-notice skirts, etc. Did he use the word “tarty”? No, he asked “Dad, why is Buffy showing her boobs like that in her shirt?” I chose to make the connection. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Kaio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/c68b51/32.png) [@Kaio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kaio)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2009, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dollhouse-mar-27-2009-echoes/491052/42 "2009-03-30T17:53:46Z")
> [@WordMan](#): > > Given Joss’ extremely vocal advocacy of women’s rights - I mean, jeez both Buffy and Dollhouse are based on premises to explore and challenge female stereotypes - the tartiness is dissonant. I am sure it is smartest to point to the networks as the motive, but still… > > (sorry for the hijack; I am _not_ a rabid feminist - or a rabid anything for that matter. But the pro-female basic mindset of Whedon material makes sense and I try to go with it, so it is jarring when something seems so out of step…) Oh wait… you mean in order to be a strong, independent, feminist woman, I have to wear frumpy clothes? Damn, I must have missed that memo. Unfortunately, I have no intention of trading out my PVC miniskirt for a muumuu, so better not look lest you suffer extreme cognitive dissonance. I like looking good, occasionally I even like to look sexy, and doing so doesn’t make me a tramp or an anti-feminist weakling. Please. :rolleyes: Also, as noted, in the early seasons of Buffy, she was a 15-year-old high schooler. Her clothing choices made a lot of sense for her character – hell, I’ve seen teens wearing flip-flops and mini-skirts in the dead of winter, standing in 3 inches of snow. Fashion/being cool trumps all at that age. As for Echo’s outfit… trampy? No. She wasn’t even showing that much skin – less skin than a tshirt and a pair of shorts. I thought it was a pretty “cute and innocent” look, which was why it was so appealing. Was it extremely flattering? Of course. And there’s _nothing wrong with that._ > [@ShibbOleth](#): > > I just went to the tape and FF real quickly through it. I didn’t see Dominic touch anyone (btw, I always thought that “Dominick” was his first name, but he’s apparently Laurence Dominic). He was in the ground zero lab while they were scoping the place out, so my guess is he touched a surface or got some airborne particles there. Well, they were clear that it wasn’t airborne – it was spreading way too slowly for that. Touching a surface might make sense. Or perhaps he touched the blood on the floor. (Although I wonder if it would pass through latex gloves, or if it has to be skin-to-skin contact. Yes I know I’m over-thinking this. 🙂 ) Or perhaps he just touched one of the students while making sure that CDC-Sierra was properly set up in the containment/frat house. > [@](#): > > Maybe he’s the mole and his hard-ass thing is a cover up act? One thing I did wonder about – if the mole got high, would s/he have accidentally blown his/her cover? Dominic blurted out that he tried to kill Echo – obviously that’s not something he normally would have wanted anyone to know about. So I’m wondering if I should be scratching a whole bunch of people off the “potential moles” list. > [@Bridget\_Burke](#): > > (I’m quite happy that guy ended up tied to the bed & abandoned. Surely one of his lackies arrived before he suffered anything worse than extreme embarrassment.) This was just about my favorite moment in the episode. “…that was a door” made me literally laugh out loud. ---
**Author:** ![WordMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e8c25b/32.png) [@WordMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WordMan)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2009, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dollhouse-mar-27-2009-echoes/491052/43 "2009-03-30T17:59:39Z")
> [@Kaio](#): > > Oh wait… you mean in order to be a strong, independent, feminist woman, I have to wear frumpy clothes? Damn, I must have missed that memo. > > Unfortunately, I have no intention of trading out my PVC miniskirt for a muumuu, so better not look lest you suffer extreme cognitive dissonance. I like looking good, occasionally I even like to look sexy, and doing so doesn’t make me a tramp or an anti-feminist weakling. Please. :rolleyes: > > Also, as noted, in the early seasons of Buffy, she was a 15-year-old high schooler. Her clothing choices made a lot of sense for her character – hell, I’ve seen teens wearing flip-flops and mini-skirts in the dead of winter, standing in 3 inches of snow. Fashion/being cool trumps all at that age. > > As for Echo’s outfit… trampy? No. She wasn’t even showing that much skin – less skin than a tshirt and a pair of shorts. I thought it was a pretty “cute and innocent” look, which was why it was so appealing. Was it extremely flattering? Of course. And there’s _nothing wrong with that._ Look, I am going to drop this. Let’s be clear: I do NOT in anyway advocate frumpiness - female empowerment can absolutely include being in touch with fashion and sexuality. I still found Echo’s outfit dissonant - not because I object to her wearing cool / sexy clothes - I mean, jeez, I chose to watch the show, and know what I am getting into from years of Buffy and Firefly. BUT, the dissonance was more about the fact that the plot included a lame excuse to get Echo into the outfit and then put her in a different context for the remainder of the show. From a show-craft standpoint, it was like an awkward product placement: “okay, we need to up The Sexy, so make something work.” I equated that with Buffy - sure she was a fashionista teen, but sometimes the extent of it seemed a bit off to me. I totally get that YMMV. I hope I can clarify that I see it as more about how it was awkwardly used, NOT the fact of it in general… ---
**Author:** ![Kaio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/c68b51/32.png) [@Kaio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kaio)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2009, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dollhouse-mar-27-2009-echoes/491052/44 "2009-03-30T18:09:48Z")
> [@Kaio](#): > > Well, they were clear that it wasn’t airborne – it was spreading way too slowly for that. Touching a surface might make sense. Or perhaps he touched the blood on the floor. (Although I wonder if it would pass through latex gloves, or if it has to be skin-to-skin contact. Yes I know I’m over-thinking this. 🙂 ) Or perhaps he just touched one of the students while making sure that CDC-Sierra was properly set up in the containment/frat house. Or hell, ya know, there’s nothing saying that you can’t catch the thing from someone who isn’t displaying symptoms yet. He probably touched one or more of the Actives at some point, and likely after they’d grabbed a student to shepherd them off to containment. ---
**Author:** ![Bridget\_Burke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7cd45c/32.png) [@Bridget\_Burke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bridget_Burke)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2009, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dollhouse-mar-27-2009-echoes/491052/45 "2009-03-30T18:34:17Z")
> [@WordMan](#): > > Look, I am going to drop this. Let’s be clear: I do NOT in anyway advocate frumpiness - female empowerment can absolutely include being in touch with fashion and sexuality. I still found Echo’s outfit dissonant - not because I object to her wearing cool / sexy clothes - I mean, jeez, I chose to watch the show, and know what I am getting into from years of Buffy and Firefly. BUT, the dissonance was more about the fact that the plot included a lame excuse to get Echo into the outfit and then put her in a different context for the remainder of the show. From a show-craft standpoint, it was like an awkward product placement: “okay, we need to up The Sexy, so make something work.” > > I equated that with Buffy - sure she was a fashionista teen, but sometimes the extent of it seemed a bit off to me. I totally get that YMMV. > > I hope I can clarify that I see it as more about how it was awkwardly used, NOT the fact of it in general… Whedon’s big on dissonance. His best shows have featured seriousness, scariness & silliness–all in one episode. Is it really necessary that Tahmoh Penikett remove his shirt quite so often in _Dollhouse_? Perhaps not. However, I’m not offended at all! ---
**Author:** ![chrisk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@chrisk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chrisk)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2009, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dollhouse-mar-27-2009-echoes/491052/46 "2009-03-30T19:07:39Z")
> [@WordMan](#): > > BUT, the dissonance was more about the fact that the plot included a lame excuse to get Echo into the outfit and then put her in a different context for the remainder of the show. I didn’t find that lead-in lame or just ‘an excuse,’ myself. It was fairly plot-relevant that Echo should show up at the college without being specifically assigned to that mission. From there, work backwards… How does she even think about the college? Well, there’s a crisis and the media could have picked up on it - she sees a tv broadcast. Where is she when she sees the broadcast? Inside the dollhouse? No, they don’t really have TV in there. Plus, it’d be hard for her to get out past security without a specific implant. So she’s on another mission - an action job? No, there might be TV, but she probably wouldn’t be paying attention to it. So it’s a ‘romantic engagement.’ Oooh, this has possibilities… And then they throw in the dressup stuff as a fun bonus 😃 ---
**Author:** ![ShibbOleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/848f3c/32.png) [@ShibbOleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ShibbOleth)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2009, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dollhouse-mar-27-2009-echoes/491052/47 "2009-03-30T19:19:12Z")
> [@chrisk](#): > > And then they throw in the dressup stuff as a fun bonus 😃 Echo’s outfit was relevant to her assignment. Sierra’s outfit was a bit ridiculous. They could have easily found her a more appropriate length skirt and some sensible shoes. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Devil\_s\_Grandmother](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/74df32/32.png) [@The\_Devil\_s\_Grandmother](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Devil_s_Grandmother)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2009, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dollhouse-mar-27-2009-echoes/491052/48 "2009-03-30T19:32:33Z")
> [@Kaio](#): > > As for Echo’s outfit… trampy? No. She wasn’t even showing that much skin – less skin than a tshirt and a pair of shorts. I thought it was a pretty “cute and innocent” look, which was why it was so appealing. Was it extremely flattering? Of course. And there’s _nothing wrong with that._ Maybe it’s just because I’m not over the ickyness of forced prostitution yet, but I found Echo’s schoolgirl outfit made that assignment even ickier than her previous encounter with MotorcycleMan. This time he wanted a teen-looking innocent to corrupt. ---
**Author:** ![JSexton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/96bed5/32.png) [@JSexton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JSexton)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2009, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dollhouse-mar-27-2009-echoes/491052/49 "2009-03-30T19:35:56Z")
> [@Dinsdale](#): > > The whole “foundry” bit was painfully obvious to anyone who even noticed a sewer cover. And I loved it when they were in the tunnel and Echo said “We follow the red pipe” - yeah, to the ladder which is maybe a whole 10 feet further down the tunnel. I think it was just them editing out lots and lots of walking. Just before they went into the tunnel, Sam mentioned that they were on the other side of the campus from the Rossom building, so clearly they must have been in the tunnels for quite a while. It’s just boring to watch people walk for that long. Best episode yet. Not sure when Alpha will re-enter the picture. ---
**Author:** ![Invisible\_Chimp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/f05b48/32.png) [@Invisible\_Chimp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Invisible_Chimp)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2009, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dollhouse-mar-27-2009-echoes/491052/50 "2009-03-30T20:37:20Z")
> [@Kaio](#): > > …One thing I did wonder about – if the mole got high, would s/he have accidentally blown his/her cover? Dominic blurted out that he tried to kill Echo – obviously that’s not something he normally would have wanted anyone to know about. So I’m wondering if I should be scratching a whole bunch of people off the “potential moles” list… I don’t think we saw Amy Acker at all this episode, let alone while “high.” Maybe that means she is the mole? ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2009, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dollhouse-mar-27-2009-echoes/491052/51 "2009-03-30T20:49:17Z")
Not my favorite episode, but the show is starting to grow on my (thanks boring job and [Hulu.com](http://Hulu.com)). So in keeping with their NATO phonetic alphabet aliases, do you think the new guy will be named ‘Zulu’ or would that be racial? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Devil\_s\_Grandmother](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/74df32/32.png) [@The\_Devil\_s\_Grandmother](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Devil_s_Grandmother)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2009, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dollhouse-mar-27-2009-echoes/491052/52 "2009-03-30T21:49:56Z")
I doubt he’ll be named Zulu. We’ve only heard names up to Sierra, I think. And there’s been more than one Sierra, so the new guy could be named anything. Assuming he doesn’t get traded to another house (do they do that? it seems obvious they must, but Echo’s still in her college town…how do they arrange to make sure she never meets an old school chum when at nightclubs?). ---
**Author:** ![Kaio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/c68b51/32.png) [@Kaio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kaio)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2009, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dollhouse-mar-27-2009-echoes/491052/53 "2009-03-30T21:51:10Z")
> [@The\_Devil\_s\_Grandmother](#): > > Maybe it’s just because I’m not over the ickyness of forced prostitution yet, but I found Echo’s schoolgirl outfit made that assignment even ickier than her previous encounter with MotorcycleMan. This time he wanted a teen-looking innocent to corrupt. No doubt the _client_ is creepy, but in my experience a creepy guy is still creepy whether I’m wearing old jeans or a miniskirt. Dushku looked good in that outfit. It was a little bit sexy, and a little bit just fun. It wasn’t trampy. If people are bringing baggage to it, it ain’t the fault of the dress. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2009, 2:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dollhouse-mar-27-2009-echoes/491052/54 "2009-03-31T02:56:58Z")
I just have to say once again how dumb the idea of these “Dollhouses” are. For the cost of keeping and protecting all these drones and developing the technology to turn them into whoever, how many prostitutes, mercenaries, or just plain old actors can you hire? And doesn’t it draw more attention, constantly reusing the same people to do various often illegal jobs? ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2009, 2:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dollhouse-mar-27-2009-echoes/491052/55 "2009-03-31T02:58:39Z")
> [@The\_Devil\_s\_Grandmother](#): > > I doubt he’ll be named Zulu. We’ve only heard names up to Sierra, I think. Victor ---
**Author:** ![ShibbOleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/848f3c/32.png) [@ShibbOleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ShibbOleth)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2009, 3:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dollhouse-mar-27-2009-echoes/491052/56 "2009-03-31T03:30:49Z")
Victor definitely comes after Sierra. If he’s a gentleman. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2009, 3:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dollhouse-mar-27-2009-echoes/491052/57 "2009-03-31T03:42:18Z")
> [@El\_Kabong](#): > > Interesting, as he has a character in the episode “War Stories” speak almost exactly the second sentence of that quote to Mal and Wash as he prepares to torture them mercilessly. Now. We get to spend some time finding out about your true self, yes. Tell me - are you familiar with the works of Shan Yu? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2009, 3:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dollhouse-mar-27-2009-echoes/491052/58 "2009-03-31T03:51:42Z")
> [@The\_Devil\_s\_Grandmother](#): > > Maybe it’s just because I’m not over the ickyness of forced prostitution yet, but I found Echo’s schoolgirl outfit made that assignment even ickier than her previous encounter with MotorcycleMan. This time he wanted a teen-looking innocent to corrupt. Motorcycle Man was running the same fantasy he did before. What we saw in the pilot episode was the end of his fantastic day; what we saw in yesterday ep was thebeginning of it. In the pilot, she mentions the ropes that they used “earlier.” ---
**Author:** ![Invisible\_Chimp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/f05b48/32.png) [@Invisible\_Chimp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Invisible_Chimp)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2009, 5:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dollhouse-mar-27-2009-echoes/491052/59 "2009-03-31T05:28:15Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > I just have to say once again how dumb the idea of these “Dollhouses” are. For the cost of keeping and protecting all these drones and developing the technology to turn them into whoever, how many prostitutes, mercenaries, or just plain old actors can you hire? And doesn’t it draw more attention, constantly reusing the same people to do various often illegal jobs? Remember, they have a greater, probably nefarious, purpose that FBI guy has to find out, as he was told by the mole through Echo. The rest of it is just a facade, a fake. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2009, 10:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dollhouse-mar-27-2009-echoes/491052/60 "2009-03-31T10:20:25Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Motorcycle Man was running the same fantasy he did before. What we saw in the pilot episode was the end of his fantastic day; what we saw in yesterday ep was thebeginning of it. In the pilot, she mentions the ropes that they used “earlier.” Maybe, except I thought Topher referred to Echo as being out on a mission with an “old client, new fantasy.” Also, it seemed a different personality: whereas the first Echo could race abike with the best of them and seemed super-confident, this one was scared of the bike, and all nervous and giggly. As for the dress, it seemed to me almost almost a caricature of a sexy outfit. Not just its short short hemline: it’s the thigh-high white stockings that gave it away. A woman who wore that in public would definitely be making a statement (as would a man who wore it in public, natch). [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dollhouse-mar-27-2009-echoes/491052.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dollhouse-mar-27-2009-echoes/491052.md?page=4)